haiku Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Hello all I am fairly new here, though I have been reading topics for several weeks now I just finally decided to join and get a few ideas bouncing around. A little about me first, and my lovely girl. I have always wanted a dog, but of course my parents only allowed cats as pets since they were 'easy keepers' and needed little care while the family took trips for vacation. So this day has been long in coming, but I am super excited to finally have a dog of my own! Her name is Miya, lovely black and white 2 and a half year old BC. She is very gentle and laid back to the point of lazy, which has struck me odd since everything I had read up on the breed suggested they were completely different. I can not complain as I do not have a big place, so walks, and toy time is a must. However I have been watching videos, reading blogs, articles and anything else I could find to help me on my way to learning, bonding and teaching her. On to the meat of this discussion. I have been looking for ways to get her to interactive with me more as well as her environment, she just has showed little to no interest in many things, toys included, unless I am directly there to play and encourage her. All of which I mean heaps of encouragement, I really wonder if she knows how to play with toys at all!? Anyways I found several videos on youtube along this subject, "101 things to do with a box." Sounded very inciteful and a simple place to start. However Miya had far different ideas than I did. I started with rewarding just simple movements toward the box, to show her that any interaction with the box is what I wanted. So head turned to the box, I clicked and treated; she sniffed the box, I clicked and treated.... Ok so that wasn't bad, however after she had looked the box over and sniffed it a few times she looses all interest in the game, regardless of the treats I have been showering her with. [side trail real quick: while watching the videos of asking your dog for these creative behaviors I noticed none of the owners were talking or encouraging their dog to interact, they just naturally would try something and through trial and error figured this out.] I attempted to encourage my dog with a simple 'go on' usually to indicate I was waiting for something anything. She still showed so little interest in working on this I finally got a half hearted pawing motion at the box and left it at that. Should I not be expecting so much of her from a new game? Even just expecting her own curiousity to have her investigate this new object on the floor? Part two: Targeting Long story short this '101 things to do with a box' was my result from attempting to work on targeting. Touch = touching her nose to the tip of a pole and target = placing her two front paws on a square of cardboard. I began with saying nothing, only presenting the obects to her and clicking for any interaction with them. Touching her nose to the pole was not difficult at all, and soon she learned that touching the end with the duct tape was the best way to get a tasty treat. Targting with her paws to the cardboard square on the other hand....was far more difficult to say the least. I would show her the cardboard, wave it around toss it a little, just to make it look interesting, they put it on the floor and wait. I clicked for any interaction with it, sniff, paw, circling etc.. After about a minute of this essentially sat there and stared at me. I picked up the square, showed it to her again and placed it down, she looked at it... the end. Does anyone have a suggestion on how I can encourage her to interact with various objects or me in more creative ways to encourage her to think and stimilate her mental capacity? Any and all suggestions would be great. Please keep in mind Miya is a very low energy dog and I have seen very little toy drive or food drive in her. I have had a really difficult time with this because I have not come across a dog so mellow, all my friends had those crazy hyper dogs that no one worked with and everyone just ignored the barking jumping and all around roudy behaviour, so this is a copmletely strange territory for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 How long have you had her, because of you got her in the past 6 months I would say she could still be adjusting to your household and her energy could improve as she relaxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Yes, a more detailed explanation of her background and how long you have had her would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haiku Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Wow such fantasticly quick replies! Yes I was also wondering about that as well, her adjustment period. I got her back in February, so this would be about my second month with her. I got her from a breeder, small time, nothing big, she was going to be used for breeding, but she had complications which required them to fix her. I chose her out of all the ones I had looked at, everything from rescue organizations, foster dogs, breeders and the like because of her calm nature. I guess I did not realize how calm. But she has a very sharp understanding of the basic commands, sit, down, stay, stand, back up and can reliably do those with some distance, except the stand she often creeps forward on when I am not close by. I have also taught her, sit pretty, and am working on bow, and shaking paws. Mind you very slowly because I am knew to this dog as she is to me, and new to dogs in general. Is there anything in specific I should mention for her background? She has been crate trained, the breeder kept her dogs in crates at night, kennels, or with her in the field as she worked horses, or cattle. As far as I know though Miya has no specific training/work with livestock, I would definitely love to try at some point, but have yet to find anyone in my area that gives lessons or classes on this. We are currently taking obedience 101, to strengthen our bond as well as help me catch up on handling her/polish her. So far we seem to be doing terrific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Having only been two months I would vote for her still adjusting. I would not force her for now, and if you can tell her interest in training is fading try to wrap it up with something easy like a sit. I think as she comes out of her shell you will see a completely different dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haiku Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I really do hope so, she seemed very playful with her owner, fetch was a lot more fluid, something I have always wanted a dog for. I just took her out for her last romp of the night, she did amazingly well! Do you have any suggestion that I could try for helping her adjust or keeping her interested in me/playing? Sometimes I do not feel like I am doing my part for her when she just wants to lay down while we are outside instead of investigating and enjoying herself like most dogs do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would try not to pressure or force her into doing anything she doesn't want to. However, definitely make a big deal out of it when she does something you like such as comes outside to explore for the first time. Basically throw a party of excitement and super special treats such as a hot dog. When you train with her keep it short ten repetitions then stop for at least 10 minutes. Then if you want ten more repetitions and repeat no more than 3 times. As your relationship builds you can lengthen your training sessions, but make sure not to go too quickly. Remember it is not a race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would step back, as folks have suggested. One really good way to "bond" with a new dog is feeding. Yep, simple, every day meals. If you follow this....every single bite she gets comes from YOU. If you're feeding kibble, don't put it in a bowl at a certain time of day. Just drop individual pieces for anything. It might simply you walking by her, whether she's in a kennel, or crate, or x-pen. It would be hard, but try to mostly ignore her other times. She'll come to associate you with a Very Good Thing!! After a time of this, then hand feed - but be sure she is being nice (which is sounds like she is), letting you GIVE the food, vs. TAKING it from you. Again, a bit here, a bit there - not all at once. If she acts like you are the best, then maybe start training new behaviors. You'll get lots of advice about there here too. One other question: Have you had her checked by a veterinarian? There just might be a physical reason for her "calmness" - anything from a dental infection to thyroid problems to something else totally weird. Hopefully that's not the case - but always worth a check. Since she's been this way since you got her, it isn't likely anything acute. Bless you for taking her on, and best of luck! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Only 2 months - so I would say she is still adjusting and learning to trust you. It takes time even for the good dogs - and she sounds like she is a very good dog. I definitely would lighten up on the training. Definitely keep the sessions short (2-3 minutes, maybe 5 minutes) and stop the session BEFORE she starts getting tired. You want to leave them wanting more. Granted, you may have to work up to the point where she wants more ... and more, but I am sure you will get there. Instead of training, a great way to build a bond (and trust) with a dog is to let them do what they want. Does she like to hike? or go to PetSmart? or go see a special dog friend? or just ride in the car? or sniff at random places? I would mix up a bit of training with time doing 'fun' things. Don't expect her to be anything but what she is at the beginning since she is still not sure of you and her new environment. I am sure she will relax soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Also, if she isn't interested in food rewards, try using training to feed her her normal rations. Some low drive dogs will begin working when they are hungry. By the way, she is an absolutely beautiful dog! And those pictures with the cherry blossoms-gorgeous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would do a lot of playing, in contrast with training, Bits of formal training are alright but for you both to get to know and feel comfortable with each other, playing is the fastest route to get her relaxed and interested in doing stuff with you. Tug, fetch, frisbee, find the toy, find the person, etc, are good. Just keep your expectations very low in the beginning as it will take her sometime to fully understand a game and get into playing it. Be very interesting with lots of sound, movement and happy happy voice, and I'm sure she will the fun of playing and working with you. You can use a line atached to a soft toy to tap into her prey drive and get her excited about chasing and grabing toys. Also, games do involve rules and obedience training, just be carefull to keep things fun, that's more important right now that perfect responses. What I get of your description of working on targeting with her was... well... boring. It would not be boring for a dog that has a clearer idea of how to play that game, but for now I would concentrate on things a bit more physical, more "dog", with sound and movement and excitement. Once she has regained the fluidity and livelyhood you saw at the breeder, then it would be time to get more "mental. Just my opinion, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haiku Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Great answers everyone, I believe there is a reason most people are suggesting similar things, so I will try to sum up my answers to everyone to avoid repitition. Please keep in mind I do not spend 30+ minutes at a time expecting her to 'train' on various aspects, like the tricks I mentioned, fetching etc. I do these in spurts, few minutes here after lunch, couple minutes there after dinner, nothing long or serious. Most of ya'll have mentioned playing, this is kinda a curve ball because, as I know, the way most dogs love to play, which many of you mentioned, tug, frisbee, balls and the like she is not overly into with me at this time. She will participate with great gusto maybe two throws, all the way to 10 throws, or some number in between, but every time is not the same and there is no visable pattern to follow. I mainly just want concistancy or something to go on so I can 'quit on that good note' kinda thing. Many you also mentioned food motivation, feeding her regular meals to her by hand and using food as a lure. Well this is a great and good, and both I have tried multiple times. Feeding her by hand started when I was hoping to teach her to catch objects in her mouth, so I started tossing her kibble for her and she has progressed very well in that regards, but unlike many other dogs I know [well all other dogs I know for that matter] if she misses the catch and the kibble bounces off her nose, she does not dive after it. o.O She will stand and stare at it, no I have not told her to leave it alone, and yes she is hungry, as I feed her once a day, but each time she misses I pause for her to have a chance to get it, and every time end up encouraging her with a 'go get it.' Is this still more adjustment on her part, uncertainty that she didn't catch the kibble so she won't go get it? As for food luring, yes I have attempted this with many different things, real ham, training treats, hot dogs, bits of cheese, and even that canned spray cheese. Of course she enjoys the actual ham best, so I reserve that for momentus occasions. Through luring this is how I taught her 'sit pretty' which she has down both the hand signal and verbal command. However I still run into that barrier where she knows what I want, even with simple commands like sit or down, but she shuts down and does not move at all. I do not hit animals either, but another oddity I saw, which I wonder if thats just her being a lower drive dog, and slightly timid personality so far, is any repremand, raised voice, she will go into a cowering submissive position. Mind you this is AFTER I have given the command like down twice in a reasonable asking tone. By the way, she is an absolutely beautiful dog! And those pictures with the cherry blossoms-gorgeous! Thank you so much Riika, she is wonderful, usually about posing for me in various situations. That poor cherry blossom tree had one of its branches knocked over from a recent storm, but it gave us a lovely photo shoot opportunity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Okay, I just wrote up my hugest post ever and it was deleted. Maybe later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I would be focusing at this time on: 1. Playing very simple training games with a high rate of reinforcement to start building "currency" in the "reinforcement bank", and to start building a working partnership, communication, and trust. This would consist of little games like Doggie Zen, CU Mat Work, and simple treat tossing games. 2. Spending time together, doing whatever the dog enjoys. If this is taking a leash walk where the dog gets to sniff the vegetation, that's what I would do. If this is toy play, that's what I would do. If this is swimming or hiking, that is what I would do. I would do that for several months, and look for when I see that the dog is ready for more. Then I would start to work with simple tricks - spins, paw work, and little things with props like going through a hoop, or hopping over my arm, or working with a tunnel or low jump. You have your dog's whole lifetime. Get to know her. You'll find what will work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Okay, let's try this again. I do not hit animals either, but another oddity I saw, which I wonder if thats just her being a lower drive dog, and slightly timid personality so far, is any repremand, raised voice, she will go into a cowering submissive position. Mind you this is AFTER I have given the command like down twice in a reasonable asking tone. From the first I thought she sounded a lot like my Duke. But this part I quoted is what made me say so. Here is a quoted piece of a blog post of mine from a couple months ago. "...In the meantime, Duke is writhing on the floor at my feet because if I so much as have a glare on my face, he's sure it was him that put it there and he's gonna get thundered and beat because of it. This side of him is the one that gets to me the most. Often, when training, things may not be going to plan, or I am even slightly irritated, all of a sudden I notice Duke shutting down. As in laying down, looking away, refusing to move at all no matter what I say, ears laced tight back etc. I'm finally learning that he is reacting to ME even before I even realize that I'm starting to get annoyed, grumpy, or just plain angry. I'm also finally learning that scared, stressed dogs never learn a thing. So when this starts happening, I just need to stop. Immediately. And play with him until we both feel better, or, if I'm angry enough, send him the play with the other dogs and send myself to run up and down the stairs or shoot hoops until I'm feeling better. Most of the time, our training session ends there. I may pick it up later in the day, or I might not..." He was hit a lot by me when he was younger. And, to be truthful, still is more than he should be. Something that I've done all my life is taking a lot of work to eradicate. Miya's behavior sounds so much like Duke. I think it is very likely that she was hit in her last home. Maybe not much but some sensitive dogs just can't take it. Duke is also very laid back like Miya. It is very, very hard to find anything that will motivate him. I do know that a huge, huge part of it is that he has no self confidence and is constantly scared of getting in trouble due to my harsh treatment of him when he was younger. When I started free shaping? He fell asleep. Mind, it was, like a stress sleep as I wouldn't let him leave and he was totally confused about what he was supposed to be doing. However, we stuck with it and now he is pretty good! Also, because he is such a lazy dog, I let him tell me when he wants to train. If, when I am around him, he is skipping and hopping around, I can usually get a very good training session in without him shutting down. If he is just kind of moping around, (75% of the time) I won't even try anything. And training him outside helps too. He will usually actually play out there so can get in the more physical training outside. He sometimes drives me crazy because he is so lazy but more often I'm quite GLAD he is like that. He doesn't need as much exercise for one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haiku Posted April 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Riika you are amazing and described my situation to a T! Now that you pointed out the shutting down before I even realize I am annoyed I see it plain as day! I can not thank you enough. Though now that I see this I must work to help her gain confidence have you found anything that works well with Duke? I have been making some progress with her tug. A very short burst of tugging and then letting her keep it so she 'wins' and perhaps doesn't think I am trying to take it from her. She seems to be getting this now and that I only want her to give up the toy if I ask her to drop it. I have also started a daily routine of feeding the majority of her kibble to her through free shaping. She still does not really understand what she is doing but she is getting a clear picture that by interacting with the box in some way she will be rewarded with food. It's really slow but I am seeing hope. With this in mind I would like to turn the direction of this conversation toward confidence building. Does anyone have a good suggestion that I could begin working with her to gain confidence? A friend of mine suggested I get another dog, I am not sure on this idea as I would like more time with just her as of right now. Thoughts anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 IMHO, NO, do not get another dog. I fail to see how that would build her confidence when playing/working with YOU. Yes, maybe she will play with another dog as you think a BC should play, but again, that is not interacting with you. Confidence building: Anything she does successfully will build her confidence. And if you reward her for it, that will definitely help too. To go back to getting her to work with you: I think you are understanding the general advice that everyone is giving - which is to back off on the "training" and play more with your dog. This doesn't have to be a lifetime strategy. It is just a strategy to help you build a bond with Miya. Once that bond is built, and she TRUSTS you (I don't think she totally trusts you yet), she will be more willing and happy to train with you. Terraserrano and Root Beer have given good advice above, and I will support their advice. I would spend at least 2-4 weeks just doing activities that you know she likes, and if she does something you think is funny or cute or even nothing whatsoever, reward her with a treat and a happy voice. Just because you are not doing formal training, doesn't mean that you are not training her. Start capturing behaviors too. If she sits, treat her. If she lies down quietly, treat her. If she looks at you while out on a walk, treat her. I think that Miya sounds like her past experience has made her wary of responding as you think a BC should respond. You have to convince her that she will not be suffering any consequences of normal dog behavior. Free-shaping, at this point for Miya, may be putting too much pressure on her. You are waiting for her to do something, and she is afraid to make a mistake and she feels the pressure, and then she might be reverting to her old behavior of not doing anything because she may have suffered negative consequences. Note: I am theorizing here based on your comment that she will pancake when she hears raised voices. I just read an article about the different learning styles of dogs (and I can not remember where I read it). One type that was described was a dog that would not continue to perform the behavior after they knew that they got it right one or two times. They are of a mindset that "Hey, I know I did that right, but she is asking for it again, so maybe I didn't do it right. Maybe I should just wait it out until she tells me what to do. Maybe I should just stop trying." For these dogs, asking for multiple repetitions is confusing them. It is also adding pressure. Again, the advice to stop before the dog loses interest is applicable here. It is just that for Miya, at this time, you may have to stop after 2 reps, even though she can do more, but doing more isn't gaining you anything if she isn't doing them in a cheerful manner. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 My last dog (not a bc but a herding breed) lacked confidence. She didn't cower or act afraid of me, but she sure lacked confidence. We worked A LOT on it, starting by going everywhere and exposing her to everything. For instance, she was afraid of open air markets, so we would go every month to the local market, and any others I could find, First we didn't even enter, then slowly build it up. And then, when she was 3 yo, we went to the summer fair, with all the stalls and loudspeakers and merry go rounds, and we strolled around for 1.5 hours and she was great, relaxed and very proud of herself. General training and specially obstacle training was also a great cionfidence builder. There where some obstacles she didn't like but we kept at it and when she overcame her fears of them she was SO proud... for instances, we spent more than 2 years trying the 6 feet wall. All the other dogs would go over it and Sara would tell me to climb it myself. Then one day out of the blue we tried it and she just did it. From then on every time we walked near that obstacle she wanted to do it and she had her tail and head up afterwards, looking very smug and "look what I can do". When she was 5 years old I decided to teach her to surf as there was going to be a surf championship for dogs. I thought it would be an interesting challenge but it turned out it was no challenge. I went into the water with the board, asked her to swim next to me, then when we where out enough asked her to climb on the board and down, and then let the board go with a wave. And she just did it, first time. Because I asked and because she finally had enough confidence to do something new without fears. I was so proud of her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourwully Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Miya is a beautiful dog! I would just enjoy the things she can do and be thankful that she isn't displaying some of the characteristics that make Border Collies such a challenge that many owners give up on them. I agree with what many of the others have said here, that time will be the answer. I have been doing the 101 things you can do with a box as part of the Sue Ailsbury levels (see thread Protocol Training) but I have been using a bucket. The first thing I did was put a bit of kibble in the bucket and click when she got it. Now she puts her head in the bucket on command. I'm not sure how this is going to help us but Juno seems to like doing anything that results in a treat. Good luck with Miya. I am a total novice but from what you have said I think things will just get better for you and Mija. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.