GeorgiaBC Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 I have a one-year-old female who has been playing frisbee since she was a puppy. She has never learned to bring it all the way back to me. She used to come close (maybe within about ten feet). I wanted to train her to bring it ALL the way to me, so I stopped rewarding her for NOT bringing it back. No more "Good Girl." Well, this was a disaster. She is so soft, that she just read my disappointment. Now Frisbee has become traumatic to her, and she doesn't even want to chase it. I'm trying to start over from scratch, but she won't even chase it she is so afraid of disappointing me. She gets nervous and edgy when I even bring the frisbee out. I am trying to be really positive and reassuring but she is not chasing the frisbee, or she is chasing it but not picking it up. This has ruined one of our favorite pasttimes. Also, my second BC is great at Frisbee, so she just watches that one get all the reward. Suggestions welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkrockbc Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 wow, she does sound REALLY soft! Im no expert with Frisbee or Obedience (especially compared to a LOT of BC owners on these boards), but I would just be ridiculously encouraging and positive with her, and give her plenty of time and patience. Don't push it too hard, just try playing with her for 5 minute periods. . also, have you tried feeding her in her frisbee? Reward her with tons of praise and a favorite treat when she picks up the frisbee. As far as getting her to bring it back, running the other way and yelling for her usually works! Just make it very exciting and GOOD, take it slow and when you start getting frustrated take a break. For now, just allow her to chew and play with it on her own, and maybe get her a soft frisbee to play tug with her and get her to really love it this is all basic, but I hope something works for you! Try not to expect her to bring it right to you until she's frisbee-obsessed and has better confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Some thoughts on your "serious problem"... I think it's funny that "frisbee" and "serious" are even used in the same sentence! I paraphrased what you said below, to address some issues seperately... Originally posted by GeorgiaBC:I have a one-year-old female who has been playing frisbee since she was a puppy..." -- OK - I hope you were only rolling it on the ground, or throwing it so low that she could grab it without jumping - lots of dogs are injured jumping for frisbees, especially puppies before they are done growing. Also, are you using a soft frisbee, or one of the hard plastic ones that could hurt to catch in her mouth? -- "...Now Frisbee has become traumatic to her, and she doesn't even want to chase it... I'm trying to start over from scratch, but she won't even chase it she is so afraid of disappointing me. She gets nervous and edgy when I even bring the frisbee out..." -- I don't think she is "sensing your disappointment". She might be avoiding the situation if it has brought her unpleasant results, such as correction, stress or physical pain. Is it possible that playing frisbee hurts her in some way or is there something physically bothering her? At one year old, she could also be going through a "fear/anxiety period" and has connected the frisbee with something uncomfortable mentally for her. Does your other dog bully her for the frisbee, or always win? Maybe the other dog has told her to "back off" from his frisbee? Have you had her checked by a vet? -- "...This has ruined one of our favorite pasttimes... Also, my second BC is great at Frisbee, so she just watches that one get all the reward. Suggestions welcome. --Maybe it is one of your (and your other bc's) favorite passtimes, but obviouslly not one of hers right now. Try a new game - how about throwing a ball or a game of tug, or teaching a trick. BC's are flexible in their abilities to enjoy play. Heck, my 1 year old could entertain herself for hours chasing my other dogs around the yard, snapping at low flying insects, playing in the baby pool, and chewing on sticks if I let her. Unless you make a living playing frisbee, there are a million fun things you can do with your dog that you can both enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaBC Posted April 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Yes, I am using a soft frisbee. Yes, I started by rolling it. Yes, it is absurd to use frisbee and serious in the same sentence (guilty). She has stopped chasing balls for the same reason. Or she chases it, but then just lies down without any attempt to bring it back. I have tried running away from her. So until someone gives me a better plan I'm going to (1) start from scratch with the frisbee to rebuild her confidence. And (2) maybe start working on some new games (good suggestion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 here's how I would start out...add "tug" to the game (she may already like to play tug). Teach her to tug with the soft frisbee (without throwing it) - or another retrievable flying item like a "flying squirrel" and then teach an "off" if she doesn't already have one. Once she enjoys that, add the retrieve back into the picture slowly. When knows that the end result could be tugging, rather than just bringing it back and surrendering it, she might want to play more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Carter & the Borderbratz Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 I would go back to the beginning. Take out the friz and treat her just for looking at it. Then treat her for sniffing, then touching, then an attempt to take it, then taking it, then a short roll, then longer, etc. Don't worry about her bringing it back. When you get her to where she will chase it even short distances, incorporate a second friz. Only incorporate a second friz, ball, or even teaching tug until she is enjoying chasing again, then you can start to fade treats using enjoyable play as a reward. Then when you want to teach her to bring back in use a second friz or ball or a game of tug or even treats if you have to to teach her what you want. Remember that discouragement or corrections (even lack of continued play) when teaching new things in a fun game can ruin the game/fun with soft dogs. 2 of mine are extremely soft, meaning they worry and over think everything- so I've learned all of this the hard way too . Best of luck, Annette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Georgia, how soft and sensitive is your dog overall, aside from this frisbee thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessJenni Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Georgia, When I taught Molli to catch a frisbee, I started with just holding out a favorite treat to her and telling her to "take it." When she was consistently taking the treat, I switched to other things (i.e., a favorite toy, a pig's ear, whatever). Once she was consistently taking that object, I started holding the frisbee out for her to take. Once she was good with that, the game changed. I went back to the original treat and started tossing it to her to catch, eventually introducing "catch it" as a command. I again went through the use of another toy, other treats, etc., with her before I tossed the (soft) frisbee to her (generally more like dropping it from overhead than anything else). Then one afternoon I spent quite a bit of time outside with her actually tossing the frisbee. It was basically a lesson in "catch it," "bring it," and "drop it." I'd throw the frisbee and she'd run it down. Then I'd tell her to bring it to me. I had a can of her favorite treats handy, and when she'd come close I'd show her the treat, which helped to reel her in. Then I got her to "drop it" at my feet by offering her the treat in exchange for the frisbee. After about 45 minutes she was doing "Catch it," "bring it," and "drop it," without any trouble, and she has traditionally been a dog that would chase down anything but getting her to bring it back to me, or GIVE it back to me pretty much never happened. The other day we were outside playing and she caught the frisbee, took a couple of steps toward me, then dropped it to run check out a puppy on the other side of the fence. I called her and told her to "bring me the frisbee." She went to the frisbee, picked it up, and flipped it a little ways my direction and then just looked at me. I started laughing, and said, "You silly girl! That's not bringing me the frisbee!! Bring me the frisbee." She did, and the game was back on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Originally posted by GeorgiaBC:She gets nervous and edgy when I even bring the frisbee out. Can you feed her out of the frisbee? The disc dog club that I trained with way back when used to do that with their pups, to get them to associate the disc with all that is good in life. Also, rollers seem to get more enthusiasm out of the softer dogs than flyers. Finally, if she doesn't bring the disc all the way back, who cares? If you're not going to compete, then last mile problems aren't that big a deal. Just take one more disc than dog with you (ex. you have two dogs, take 3 discs) and start chucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaBC Posted April 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 There are some really good suggestions here. The thing is, she's a really good frisbee dog. I just never realized she would take "game over" or lack of positive support so hard. I just wanted to teach her to put it in my hand. How soft is she? One stern look from me crushes her. That being said, she's outgoing and confident with straners and other dogs. She's just desperate for my approval. The good news is that we discovered today she'll still chase the frisbee for my son. It's just displeasing me she's freaked out about. That's going to make getting her back into the game a lot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkrockbc Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 I'm sure some time and encouragement will totally help her love frizbees again. . she is definitely in the "unsure/soft" stage of her life. When my boy was in that stage, he was DEATHLY afraid of clickers, when I was trying to clicker train him. He would run and hide when it clicked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptoohey1 Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Does she have any prey drive? Does she chase leaves blowing across the yard? or seem interested in things skeetering by her? If she doesn't, then you need to build that drive back up again.. Get a soft rubber ball on a 6" string and just tease her with it by moving it across the floor in front of her, making quick popping motions to imitate a mouse or something.. if she goes for it don't let her get it too easy.. the point is to build drive.. Once you've let her grab it once or twice to build confidence and interest, only let her capture the prey item after longer periods. The fustration of not getting the prey item builds the "prey drive" you are looking for... as long as your making it a fun game.. USE YOUR VOICE.. loud and crazy.. or maybe soft and calm.. whatever! Then when you see she really really wants the item toss it a few feet.. hopefully she'll pounce! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaBC Posted May 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I am the original poster. The good news is that it didn't take long to build her confidence back up. I just made the whole experience positive for her again. And she's back to running after the frisbee, catching it, and...bringing it about halfway or two thirds of the way back and lying down. I have tried running in the other direction, I have gotten down on my knees, I have tried treats, but she does not want to put that frisbee in my hand. After trying all this before, I just stopped the game, with no positive reinforcement and--per this original post--that was a disaster. Anybody got any other thoughts on how to get her to bring it all the way back to me. NOTE: she brings it all the way back to my nine-year-old son, because she wants to play tug with him. She puts it in HIS hand, but then doesn't let go. Anybody? Maybe I should just work on a generic "take it" and, more importantly, "give it" command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 It's different with your son because she feels more confident with him. If you reinforced that she had to lose at tug and whatnot at some point, she will need some work on her confidence first before you can play like that too. Start from the first thing you want her to do - touching it when it's in your hand. If she's just WILD for the thing, sit with it in your hand and reward her for touching it. Work up her confidence to where you'll get a little tug and LET HER HAVE IT. Don't worry about her keeping it - you can work on that later. Make a happy tuggy noise while you're playing with the disc. By the way, use a nice soft floppy disc for this, not the hard kind - it also helps her mentally to switch the type of toy. It's important later to make the noise while you're tugging. Use something that excites her but doesn't scare her - this line can be hard to find with a lot of soft dogs. After she is confident tugging and keeping it, train her to give. Offer the toy silently (no tuggy noise) with a great reward ready (maybe her old disc or a ball), the second she committs to the disc, show her the lure. The second she unclamps on the frisbee make it disappear and say GIVE - "good girl!" and throw the other thing. You can also offer the frisbee as a reward later when she starts responding freely to the GIVE command. SO what does all this have to do with bringing the disc later? You're overcoming her inhibitions about playing with you with the disc, plus you're increasing her prey drive a zillionfold with this close work. You should be able to shape all kinds of things later, including correct fetchwork. By the way, the best fetch is to drop it approximately at your feet while circling behind, not placing it in your hand. That might suit her nature more anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 For whatever reason, playing frisbee with you has become a point of stress/conflict. Give it a rest for awhile and assess your overall relationship with this dog. Just curious, how does she act when you're training her (i.e. obedience commands)? How easily does she learn new commands? Would you say she's more comfortable around your son in general? My guess is there's more going on that just refusing to play frisbee with you. -Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I'm with Laura on this one. If the dog has already exhibited signs of stress (shutting down) and is getting her confidence back, I think you need to back off a wee bit and let her be a bit of a yahoo. Right now, who cares where the disc ends up. Some dogs naturally return to hand, some drop it at your feet. Personally, I don't care what my dogs do so long as they return it somewhere in my vicinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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