Help - Oreo is peeing on agility tunnels

[Oreo's mom]

We plan to have Oreo begin to compete in agility competitions this summer.

 

Unfortunately, he has developed the habit of peeing on (and sometimes in) the tunnels whenever we are training.

 

How do we stop this? Would spraying some kind of "Begone" or other doggy repellant on the tunnels work? Since he's faster than my daughter (who will be competing) it's tough for her to get ahead of him to verbally call him off of lifting his leg. And I don't even know if that would work. We've never trained him to STOP peeing on command.

 

Our trainer has suggested immediately pulling him off the course until he gets the idea, but since we only train for a few hours on Saturday that means we get in very little practice.

 

Is this a common problem with male dogs or is Oreo the major goofball we suspect he is?

[punkrockbc]

LOL! Gonzo did that a few times too. . I felt really bad -.-

 

You could try teaching Oreo a solid "Leave It", practice using a smelly treat, walk by with him in a heel and if he goes for it jerk his collar once, sharply, and tell him to LEAVE IT. Once he gets the idea and ignores it without physical correction, tell him "good leave it" and reward him. If he gets good enough at this, and you see him starting to go for the tunnel, tell him LEAVE IT, Tunnel (or through). . or whatever.

 

You could also walk him around before Agility practice, let him get out all of his. . pee. . on trees and bushes in the area before starting class

[mosstheboss2000]

I agree you should pull him off the course....

I would take him off immediatly and put him away for a time out in his crate away from all the fun and action(use this time to clean the tunnel!!!)If you keep letting him run you are just rewarding him for his actions whether you scold him or not.

Is he neutered......

[Oreo's mom]

Thanks for responding.

 

He does know "leave it" when it comes to the cat, food he isn't supposed to have, the trashcans, etc., etc. And he is neutered.

 

Are you saying to tell him "leave it" as he nears the tunnel and then say "tunnel" immediately after so he will enter the tunnel instead of peeing on it? Or to try to catch him in mid-leg lift and then "leave it"? It seems like there's only a split second or so of time after he reaches the tunnel and then pees.

 

 

Our trainer always tells him "Oreo, that is MY tunnel, not YOURS!" so I think she's seeing it as a possession thing. Plus, he's in the habit now and who knows if other dogs are peeing on it when we're not around.

 

He always has plenty of opportunities to pee while there in the park, it's just he never seems to run out...

 

Pulling him off the course immediately seems very appropriate but how long will it take before he gets the idea of WHY he was pulled off? We only train for about an hour and 1/2, once a week and we rotate turns with two other dogs.

 

I appreciate your responses. If we don't get a handle on this my understanding is he will be instantly disqualified and besides, it's just plain annoying and rude of him.

[laurie etc]

If other dogs are using the tunnel, and/or you don't know if they are also peeing/marking on it, he's probably using it as a "proverbial" fireplug. it needs a good washing with a powerwasher and some bleach water or something like Nature's Miracle. We take our tunnels to the do-it-yourself carwash in the back of a pickup truck to clean them every so often.

We also require the "marking" dogs in our classes to wear bellybands while running, that way they just "pee themselves" if they stop to lift a leg. After a while they seem to stop doing it - when they aren't able to leave their mark.

I would not say "leave it" as he approaches a tunnel - you don't want to send a mixed message about whether he should perform the tunnel. But I would react quickly and firmly if you can catch him in the act of peeing on it.

My males are trained to pee on command, I do not let them mark every tree,bush and fencepost. If Oreo is used to doing that at will, I would think about training him to pee on command, and start preventing him from marking except where you give him permission.

[MarieJ]

I would agree that the tunnel needs a good cleaning. I wonder if it might help to make it very rewarding to him to fly through the tunnel, rather than dawdling in there lifting his leg.

I've always had intact males, a lot of times the best thing is to just not give them the chance to stop and think about marking. Keep him busy and moving!

 

Marie

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by MarieJ:

I wonder if it might help to make it very rewarding to him to fly through the tunnel, rather than dawdling in there lifting his leg.

Keep him busy and moving!

Marie

Yes - Marie's right - i would also work on some restrained recalls through tunnels to get his mind on running through as fast as possible - I just assumed that he was running fast, but maybe not? Is he distracted, stressed, or looking for things to do besides agility when you are training? Most of the border collies I know/train would never take the time to pee on a tunnel - tunnels mean turbo charge to them - but we do have some dogs in class who stress in agility, and they are the ones who sometimes find "other" activities to do besides the obstacles...wandering, sniffing, socializing, peeing, etc.

[Oreo's mom]

Originally posted by laurie etc:

Originally posted by MarieJ:

[qb] Is he distracted, stressed, or looking for things to do besides agility when you are training? Most of the border collies I know/train would never take the time to pee on a tunnel - tunnels mean turbo charge to them - but we do have some dogs in class who stress in agility, and they are the ones who sometimes find "other" activities to do besides the obstacles...wandering, sniffing, socializing, peeing, etc.

Yes, he does ALL of that! We never thought it was stress related. We assumed that it was a dominance and defiance issue. My daughter, who practices with him and will be the one competing with him, is 13 and we thought it was all about Oreo "dissing" her.

 

Also, in the attempts to get each obstacle correct, we've been doing a lot of stopping and starting to correct contacts, etc, so there's not a sense of flow. I'm saying this badly, but it's like he doesn't know that running the complete course is the goal.

 

Thanks for all the input and suggestions -please keep it coming.

[urge to herd]

I'm no expert in agility by any means, but your post just above about him turning away, wandering, sniffing, etc, is exactly what Samantha, my 10 yr old, has always done when she's feeling too much pressure. She's a very, very soft dog, and that's her way of turning away from intense pressure, esp. where she isn't exactly clear of what is expected of her. And how old is Oreo?

 

And, please don't take offense, but your daughter may be contributing to his stress. If she's stressing and getting upset, she could be not clear and consistent in her communication with him esp on the course. At flyball practice, it was not uncommon for our team leader to call a break for the humans, and let us all chill for a minute.

 

The stopping and starting has to be confusing for him. Flyball really would get exciting for the dogs when they 'turned on' to the idea of doing the whole sequence, and not just random activities that happened.

 

Good luck, I hope that things smooth out for you all.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[laurie etc]

I don't want to put a damper on your daughter's enthusiasm to trial, but sounds like she and Oreo need to get their relationship in order, and Oreo's confidence and enthusiasm back before even considering entering any trials. She may be putting way to much pressure on herself, with that "trialing this summer" goal, and he feels the pressure, too. I have seen plenty of dogs "shut down" from just that type of thing. Also, How does your daughter reward Oreo for a good job? Or does she just stop and correct when he's wrong? A lot of people forget to praise/treat/tug once they think the dog understands the job, they assume that continuing on is enough reward. For some dogs agility is the ultimate reward, but for many, the build up of stress overides the enjoyment reward(ie, disappointment from the owner due to missing contacts and having to repeat them; knocking bars, or breaking stays). Handlers still need to keep the reinforcement rate high, reward randomly and enthusiastically, and not just assume that "doing the obstacles" is enough for their dog. Especially when working on stressful things like startline stays, contacts, weavepoles- -things that take a lot of mental and physical effort from the dog --she needs to be rewarding highly. If your daughter is at the point of trying to do whole courses with Oreo and he's exhibiting stress (which you describe as "dissing", I would go back and break up the course into short sequences, rewarding in beween (playing tug is a great stress reliever). Don't push it too far, too fast, there will be plenty of trials in their future.

[Oreo's mom]

Thanks so much for your continuing suggestions, all.

 

Oreo is 3 years old. We have done only clicker training with him. He does get rewarded while we're training (clicked and treated) or a quick game of tug. He doesn't like to QUIT tugging, though, so that's another delay.

 

My daughter actually stays fairly composed these days, though of course she has some stress and no doubt Oreo picks up on that. She's been training him for nearly three years and they do have a loving relationship and she's very good about keeping her emotions under control for the most part. I know, I know, she's still a teenager.

 

He also needs distraction work because the park where we train is very appealing to him and not a place where he normally gets to go. We use all the distractions (dogs, bikes, people walking, etc) as chances to get his attention back on my daughter and he always gets rewarded for that, so it does all have value.

 

One problem that has just occured to me (d'oh) is what happens just previous to practice. We train at a park about a mile from our training facility. We have to spend about an hour and 1/2 loading the dog walk, a-frame, weaves, tire, teeter, etc etc into a pick-up truck, mini-van and subaru.

 

Then we drive to the park. We are all exhausted by the time we get to the park where we then have to unload all the equipment and set up the course. Thank God we have one male in our class because my daughter, I and the other woman student could never do this alone.

 

During all this time the dogs are just hanging around either kenneled or tied up. So it seems we are in many ways setting ourselves up for failure because we are all (dogs probably too)hot, tired and cranky.

 

Hmmm, lots of room for thought...not sure how that situation can be changed in the near future tho. Our small class is pushing for purchase of a trailer, but we're the only ones having to lug equipment, so no one else is interested right now in chipping in.

 

Sorry for the babbling.

[Oreo's mom]

And Laurie, thanks for your good analysis and thoughtful suggestions about easing back on the competition aspect and focusing on the rewards and joys.

 

Fortunately (I think) my daughter is not highly and intensely competitive and driven. We just feel like we are delaying the other people's training and maybe disappointing our trainer / coach.

[BigD]

Coming to this late as I've been off to a convention. It's all pretty clear and I think everyone has it right. The dog is stressed and not sure on what he is supposed to do.

 

Something that strikes me as a possible cause is that you guys have rushed this way too fast. If your dog is 3 years, then that means you should have started the jumps and weaves around 16 months to 2 years. Hopefully around 2 years. The rest is contacts, but not at full height, right? You should be working on the flat work, FC, RC, RFP's, out's, here, go, etc. So the dog and your daughter should be a very good team on the control work.

 

If, as some folks tend to do (I did when I started until I knew better) you went into this with others that felt it was all about running EVERYTHING as soon as you could, then THAT may be the reson why that dog is showing signs of stress. Going way to fast without the foundation work.

 

The best piece of advice I got as a beginner (I've been doing agility for 1 full year now) was from a woman that has a very advance level dog. She moved here from the midwest and has worked with some of the tops instructors and actually has a trained dog that is just awesome. Her advice was this "Even though you think you CAN run a full course...you should NOT run a full course unless you are in a competition. Work on combinations with lots of rewarding...and NEVER settle for less than perfect or your course work will reflect that. The dog will run what you train and if you train full courses while knocking rails or missing contacts - then THAT is what you will get in competition."

 

At first glance I didn't agree, but I can see her point. A course is a series of combinations...and if you train that, youre course work will be good as well.

 

So take a step back. Have you guys rushed into this too fast? Sniffing, peeing, etc are all stress signals. Note when your dog does this - after what command or actions? Then look at those issues and work on them. Get your daughter and that dog comfortable. Stopping and starting is fine as long as things are kept fun, up-beat and always on the move. If the dog blows the RC into a tunnel...take him off to the side and do a fast down - tug...reward...go back to the tunnel and simplify your entry...reward and have fun...work up to another RC and go from there. You must make sure your dog understands all aspects of what you are doing...obstacle discremination, etc. It's all about the foundation work and if you've gone too fast, that may be the cause of all these problems.

 

Denise

[Oreo's mom]

Wow. All this time I thought we were progressing too slow.

 

We're in this for fun for Oreo and my daughter and lately, I admit, it has not been.

 

And I had no idea it would be best to not train on a fully set up course.

 

 

I believe the aim for our present class of setting up the course in a park is in part to get the dogs used to being outside and being distracted and to be able to do the obstacles anyway.

 

You all have given me lots to consider and I appreciate everyone's input. It's been a real eye-opener as to what's going on with Oreo.

 

Thank you, thank you.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Whenever my dogs have obstacle issues, I always step back and put them back on leash for remedial training. I would use 2 handlers with really yummy food and get his speed up through the tunnel. With a leash on you can give a mild correction with a happy tunnel command until he gets the idea. Do this for a few repetitions at the beginning and end of each class and then don't use the tunnel for sequences until he is hitting the tunnel and out of it quickly 99% of the time. Going back to basics is a technique I was reminded to always use first from the Boltons in England.

 

Good luck,

Annette Carter