Looking for a reputable breeder, need help!

[Andie182]

I have spoken with Patrick Shanahan on several occasions. I've been to his place a couple times. I live about 10 miles from him. He is a very nice man and an incredible dog trainer. I didn't get into this discussion to denigrate or judge anyone and so I will not get drawn into that. I like my pup, I like her sire and dam. I trialed GSDs in Schutzhund for years. I had an awesome trial dog a few years ago- he would have washed out for street work. He was a sport dog. I have no reservations about saying that. I ride AQHA registered horses in reined cowhorse competitions- my horse does not put in 10-12 hour days out on a ranch. She is a sport horse tucked safely into her stall bedded with shavings and with her blanket on because it is 40F (Brrrrr), she is not a working ranch horse. I am under no illusions- my BC was bred from working stock. I will have fun white water rafting and paddle boarding with her and working some cows in between. I am not insulting anyone in what they do with their dogs; I am honest with myself.

[Andie182]

I came on these boards because I am new to Border Collies and thought that I could network and get some advice on training, behavior, what to expect, etc. Someone asked about a breeder; I had a good experience with mine. I learned a few things today that I didn't know. It doesn't change my mind about the dog that I have. I have no desire to put people down or judge others for what they do or believe. I hope that others on here can say the same.

I hope that Desertcollie finds the dog of her dreams.

[Jett]

Bravo to you Andie182. My intent was not to judge anyone either. I do get very annoyed by *some* of the superior, elitist attitudes on here. Mark, thank you for the witty reply, it made me smile. I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day at the farm to post on an internet dog forum. BTW, I am not an active breeder. Not interested in breeding, or referring the OP to a particular breeder. I got drawn into the conversation and probably should of kept my 2 cents to myself. Good luck to desertcollie and I hope you find your ideal border collie.

[Mark Billadeau]

Mark, out here in Idaho, dogs that work these sheep would be considered working dogs as opposed to tending a small hobbyist flock or trialling on the weekends:

I consider our 75 breeding ewes to be a hobby flock because we don't rely upon them to pay to mortage; but we do run the farm like a business. However, I still consider our dogs working dogs despite tending a hobbiest flock and trialing on the weekends. I also know our dogs can work western ewes (based upon trips to the finals out west).

[Andie182]

Mark, that's fine. We all do what we do. I have no issues with what you do with your dogs. I'd venture to say that the majority of people on here do not depend on ranching for a living- I'm certainly included in that category.

[Sue R]

We are certainly not dependent on our cattle for our living but we are dependent on our dogs for helping us manage our cattle. I'd never confuse our small farm with a making-a-living ranch. We run it as a business and take the management seriously.

[Maxi]

What gets me is people who make a big thing about the fact they 'health screen' their dogs and bitches prior to breeding but then at the same time line-breed.

 

All dogs (and humans) contain DNA mutations which as a single copy do not have a serious consequence, but when both copies are mutated then the result can be a significant disease or psychological disorder. Most of these mutations are not yet identified so can't be screened for. Also many of these diseases may not be apparent until after puppyhood.

 

Line breeding may be done with the intent to improve the good features (natural talent) in the offspring, but it will also inevitably increase the risk of getting pups with a new genetic disorder.

 

People working their dogs for a living will tend to get rid of these dogs, but pet owners won't.. and so it is the dog itself and the pet owner who will suffer.

[cwb3]

I had a black lab once that got his head stuck in an empty 50lb bag of dog food!

That's got to count for something!

 

Until we are told Jett's definition of "real work" it's hard for me to know if my dogs can do "real work".

 

 

I've never tried working my dogs in a paper bag; I'll let you know how one of them does tonight loading and unloading a small stock trailer when we take ca. 34 cull ewes to market.

[Andie182]

I guess when it comes to the issue of line breeding I don't have a problem with it. Horses are so closely line bred these days that most of the time you are competing against the same horse as the one that you are riding!!!! They are all bred the same way practically. GSDs are line bred like crazy. Line breeding is a way to develop the traits that you want and have them breed true in your animals. Breeds were developed through line breeding- there is no other way to get that uniformity. are bad traits concentrated along with good? You bet. That is why the health screening exists. There is not a breed out there that doesn't have genetic issues and it is because every breed began through selective breeding and breeding in the same lines. The fact that there is so much variation in the Border Collies suggests that maybe less of it was done with them but it certainly is/was practiced to a degree otherwise you would not have the uniformity that you do in order to call it a breed. My guess is that it is more

Common today in the cow dog lines because they want the toughness that is a little harder to find in some Border Collies so they are selecting for it. That is just my opinion, of course, I am new to BCs and still learning the ins and outs.

[Pippin's person]

I have spoken with Patrick Shanahan on several occasions. I've been to his place a couple times. I live about 10 miles from him. He is a very nice man and an incredible dog trainer. I didn't get into this discussion to denigrate or judge anyone and so I will not get drawn into that. I like my pup, I like her sire and dam. I trialed GSDs in Schutzhund for years. I had an awesome trial dog a few years ago- he would have washed out for street work. He was a sport dog. I have no reservations about saying that. I ride AQHA registered horses in reined cowhorse competitions- my horse does not put in 10-12 hour days out on a ranch. She is a sport horse tucked safely into her stall bedded with shavings and with her blanket on because it is 40F (Brrrrr), she is not a working ranch horse. I am under no illusions- my BC was bred from working stock. I will have fun white water rafting and paddle boarding with her and working some cows in between. I am not insulting anyone in what they do with their dogs; I am honest with myself.

 

Your framing here is interesting.

 

I wasn't seeking to "draw you in" to anything but rather to evaluate the basis of the proposition you laid out that Frank Shirts' operation presents a good example of what constitutes working dogs in Idaho. As far as I can see from the link you posted, the only working dogs used in that operation are guardian dogs (maybe that's not accurate--but from the reading I did, they don't seem to be using herding dogs). Which is totally fine, but I'm not sure how that relates to the issues of evaluating "real work" for herding dogs like border collies.

 

I find the many conversations that occur here about "real" work have their own elitism embedded--again, fine, elitism sometimes has its place, but disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

Glad you like your pup and I hope you have many wonderful adventures. A good dog is a treasure indeed.

[mum24dog]

I guess when it comes to the issue of line breeding I don't have a problem with it. Horses are so closely line bred these days that most of the time you are competing against the same horse as the one that you are riding!!!! They are all bred the same way practically. GSDs are line bred like crazy. Line breeding is a way to develop the traits that you want and have them breed true in your animals. Breeds were developed through line breeding- there is no other way to get that uniformity. are bad traits concentrated along with good? You bet. That is why the health screening exists. There is not a breed out there that doesn't have genetic issues and it is because every breed began through selective breeding and breeding in the same lines. The fact that there is so much variation in the Border Collies suggests that maybe less of it was done with them but it certainly is/was practiced to a degree otherwise you would not have the uniformity that you do in order to call it a breed. My guess is that it is more

Common today in the cow dog lines because they want the toughness that is a little harder to find in some Border Collies so they are selecting for it. That is just my opinion, of course, I am new to BCs and still learning the ins and outs.

 

Is it supposed to be a justification for line breeding to state that "GSDs are line bred like crazy"? That didn't work out well did it? If ever a breed deserved to be likened to a train wreck....

[Andie182]

 

Is it supposed to be a justification for line breeding to state that "GSDs are line bred like crazy"? That didn't work out well did it? If ever a breed deserved to be likened to a train wreck....

 

Poor breeding is not the same as line breeding.

[mum24dog]

Poor breeding is not the same as line breeding.

Maybe be not, but wilfully denying the facts of genetics is hardly a description of best practice.

[Andie182]

I do not believe that I am denying the facts of genetics. I believe that I am acknowledging the facts of genetics. This is what I am talking about:

 

 

http://www.bordercollies.nl/eborstam.shtml#OLD_HEMP

 

 

It seems that these very early dogs were bred like crazy and their genetics concentrated- probably closer than what we do today- to get the uniformity of type. I believe there is some mention of bad traits that were passed by one of the dogs on this list also. We probably deal with some of those, still, today.

[Laurae]

I love it when people brand new to border collies educate the rest of us!

[desertcollie]

Wow! I'm getting more than what I bargained for in this post! Hope I can get some more recommendations! But I'm enjoying the show all the same!

[Andie182]

Look, I'm new to border collies but not new to dogs, ok. I also have a background in genetics, so know a little bit about that. I am trying to contribute to a conversation that was started when I posted something about a breeder. I realize that you may be an expert on border collies and dogs in general and know everything that there is to know about them and have nothing to learn from an ignorant newbie like me and I wholeheartedly apologize. I was attacked from the moment that I posted on here and have been on the defensive ever since. If this is how you treat newcomers, it is easy to see why so many may gravitate to other organizations. Good day.

[Maxi]

personally I'm not really getting at the idea of line breeding itself.. Instead, in my previous post I was commenting on the hypocrisy of those breeders who claim to health screen the parents and then increase the odds of producing new genetic disorders by breeding related animals together (which cannot be screened for because the genetic defect they produce from their cross hasn't yet been identified).

 

So yes, line breeding will retain or 'improve' some lauded characteristics.. but at the same time, the breeder and anyone buying these pups should be aware that this kind of breeding will inevitably increase the statistical probability (i.e. risk) that the pup will have a genetic problem..

 

A case of buyer beware

[Debbie Meier]

Well, when it comes to line/inbreeding it does not create new defects, it can brings traits be them good or bad (defect) into a visible state so that the breeder can the decide if they want to continue refining that line or abandon the line or a portion of it. The process has been utilized for centuries to refine populations of animals to get consistency.

 

Probably the biggest threat to any closed population is when people breed who do not place enough selection pressure on their mating decisions and who do not actively cull (Cull = remove from the breeding population, don't breed those individuals, s/n them or destroy them)

 

I have personally visited at length with breeders who aggressively line breed, once they established their base population and proofed it to be genetic defect free they then had to worry about what they were bringing in when they outcrossed. With each outcross they increased the chances of bringing something in that they were unaware of in a carrier state, perpetuate that state to later have it bred into state where it was outwardly expressed.

[Debbie Meier]

Something else that many don't consider, you can make a mating that you believe is healthy by not producing any pups with defects, repeat that mating 2-3 times also not producing defects to suddenly produce defects in the 4th litter, it's not that the pair were defect free, it just took that long before a individual pup expressed the defect. The fewer times you mate any given pair of dogs, the less likely you will be to see defects expressed, but that doesn't mean that both dogs don't have the defects in a carrier state and that they are not in turn perpetuating carrier states.

 

So in truth, breeding a dog once or even twice is not likely to give you enough data to honestly know if you have defect free dogs. Changing the mate also gives you more data, what produces no defect to one mate may produce defects when bred to another simply because either male or female had the defect in a carrier state. That carrier state was passed on, even when the defect didn't show up in the pups, but if may show up 1-2-3 generations later. Or, it might end up accidently being bred into a recessive state.

[Maxi]

Yep.. And genomes inevitably gain new mutations. So with every generation, some dogs will become 'carriers" for more new mutations... Some beneficial, some not. So no line-bred line can ever be 'proofed to be genetic defect free'.

[MossyOak]

.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms Andie, alas, makes assumptions how Border Collies are bred that are not true. She writes: "It seems that these very early dogs were bred like crazy and their genetics concentrated- probably closer than what we do today- to get the uniformity of type."

 

No shepherd in 16th -20th century Britain had the slightest interest in"uniformity of type". There were dozens of local/regional sheepdogs (survivors into the 20th century include the Witloof Collie, the kelpie, the smithfield collie, the welsh collie, the welsh Grey, etc.) Practical shepherds bred useful dogs to useful dogs and called every result "Collies". There's evidence they brought in Gordon setters for eye and whippets for speed. There was no bonus to have a dog related to Old Hemp (ISDS #1) nor was he "bred like crazy". Thousands of useful sheepdogs entered the registry because it was very easy - and still (comparitivly) is. ROM (registry on merit) Barbara Carpenter's useful books show that a tremendous number of ISDS champions (won the International) have ROM dogs no further back than their grandparents.

 

If you want to see how many Border Collies are linebred, the pedigrees of National Finals competitors are available on the USBCHA website.

 

Not many. There's no need to.

 

Ms. Andie continues: "The fact that there is so much variation in the Border Collies suggests that maybe less of it was done with them but it certainly is/was practiced to a degree otherwise you would not have the uniformity that you do in order to call it a breed."

 

Why would a working farmer care whether or not his dog is a "breed" or "registered" if he could get the work done. Be nice if the dog threw pups he could sell but he can't sell them to people who haven't seen his dogs work. Sorry, no website.

 

It isn't easy coming from show dogs and sport horses into the insular, difficult and interesting world of useful stockdogs. With the best dog and the will in the world, it takes time to get good enough to see/know what's happening before your very eyes.

 

Forum debates don't count for much but on a black night,pouring rain, with your rams broke out to breed ewes you hadn't wanted bred, and you're really wishing you were somewhere dry, when you send your dog into the black knowing he'll bring the flock and you and he will sort them and put the rams back so both of you can get back inside: yep, that counts.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maxi]

^^THIS^^ Mr McCaig as always hits the nail straight on the head..

[Sue R]

Thanks, to Donald and others who have been so eloquent in talking about good dogs and good breeding.

 

Real work is whatever needs to be done, now. Trials are another form of proving a dog's level of ability and training (and the owner's handling skills). Some dogs prove their worth and never leave the farm. Others can excel at trials but not in certain farm/ranch situations.

 

Breeding good dogs is understandably an art and not a science (I think science is too simple to describe good breeding decisions).

 

If people here seem "superior" or "elitist" or whatever else, it's because they value and treasure the dogs that can do the work, at home, at the neighbor's place, on the trial field, or wherever it needs to be done and matters, and not just some place where the pursuit of ribbons, titles, and fun with their dog occurs.