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I don't buy the excuse that they have lots of dogs and breed lots of litters because the dogs are needed for their operation. A pregnant and nursing bitch isn't available to work for at least a couple of months each time she has a litter. That sort of negates the "they're needed on the ranch" argument, though I guess if they have so many out of commission with puppies they would need even more to do the actual work. If they keep loads of bitches and produces loads of puppies, I don't see how they are working them all, unless they also employ a cast of thousands. Just my two cents.

 

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Regarding line breeding, I, for one, am not entirely opposed if the breeder knows what he/she is doing and is willing to cull what doesn't work. Most of my dogs go back to a breeder who line breeds. The dogs work very predictably, and since I like the way they work, I wouldn't hesitate to go to that breeder for another dog. Then again, I had a rescue who was linebred (if you can call it that with a BYB type situation) and had some serious temperament issues. Same breeder's line of dogs, but this dog was from two people who had bought dogs from the breeder I like and then proceeded to breed them (uncle to niece breeding, so a family tree with no branches) with not so great results, at least for the dog I took in as a foster and then ended up keeping because of fear aggression issues.

 

J.

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I'm more doubtful about the level of socialisation they claim than whether they can work all their dogs.

 

But as for the number of litters on the ground at the same time, maybe it's a case of synchronised oestrus. I'd want to know whether they always have that many.

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I have not seen that. Nor can I find any info to support that.

 

It's been a couple years since I saw a litter of them, but they didn't really broadcast it. Just listed them on whatever puppy-sale website (another strike IMO) they use, there were definitely multiple litters though. Might have had something on Facebook about them at one time. Ask them.

 

EDIT: Here you go.

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Line breeding and popular sires are the likely reasons why we are seeing a rise in EOD in our breed.

 

 

When you double up on genetic mutations that are just "carried" in a line you are much more likely to produce affected dogs; one better hope that the genetic affects are irrelevant to the health of the individual dogs and the breed as a whole.

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I live in an area that is surrounded by REAL working cattle and sheep operations. My husband grew up on a working cattle ranch, and we are still close friends with several ranchers and farmers who use dogs to work their livestock. Not ONE of these families use pedigreed animals, that I know of. In fact many of them cross breed their animals with heelers, McNabs, hounds, and even Airedales to get the desired toughness and resiliency to work. NONE of them health test. So I would suggest to those of you who want to attack a couple of the suggested breeders on here who have successful breeding programs and are actually using their animals to work, put your money where your mouth is! Can your "health tested" and "no line breeding" papered dogs actually do any real work? Oh, I get the weekend warriors who like to proclaim they have a "working" border collie because they go out on Sundays and let their pups chase around a paid trainer's pet sheep. And I also understand the purpose of this board is to preserve the true working purebred border collie. Sorry, seen way too many that couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.

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I know I've posted links from this blog before... but I do think that Dr Carol Beuchat does speak a lot of sense.

 

Here is her latest blog entry on inbreeding-in lines. Although it starts her discussion based on labradors. IMO her comments on co-efficient of inbreeding (COI) starting half way down the blog entry hold true for all dog breeders - including those for working BCs. ..

 

Perhaps I should also post this on the other thread on breeding for particular traits that is currently on-going in the "under the handler's tent' forum..

 

ETA IMO it is also worth reading Dr Beuchats blog entry on why DNA testing (although very useful) willl not necessarily make dogs healthier.. she also explains why knowing COIs are useful.

Thank you so much for these articles/posts. This is becoming a very eye opening experience. I tend to be a person who thinks "just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should".

 

I know there are no guarantees in life, but to willingly accept something like this, seems you might be asking for trouble. With so many good border collies out there, why risk gambling?

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I've also found Mill Iron S pups listed on ebay, the puppy finder sites and ranchworld ads. It looks like they'll soon have 7 litters on the ground, including their poodle mixes. I can't imagine anyone have time for that many pups to get the attention they need.

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Andie,

Maybe you were lucky. Maybe they are breeding dogs with great temperaments. But the volume of breeding is cause for concern, whether you want to believe that or not.

 

Jett,

Yes, my dogs can (and do) put in a full day's work and then some. There are plenty of cattle ranchers out there breeding all sorts of mixes for whatever need they perceive. I'm not sure what that has to do with a cattle rancher who is breeding pedigreed dogs at a large volume, unless you're arguing that no one should pass judgement because they have a large ranch and actually use their dogs. That doesn't change my argument that if they are breeding lots of bitches or repeat breeding lots of bitches, then at least those bitches don't have spare time to be doing the work on the ranch. Just saying.

 

J.

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Until we are told Jett's definition of "real work" it's hard for me to know if my dogs can do "real work".

 

 

I've never tried working my dogs in a paper bag; I'll let you know how one of them does tonight loading and unloading a small stock trailer when we take ca. 34 cull ewes to market.

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As someone else refers to one if their dogs on the boards, sounds like you may have the right dog, from the wrong breeder.

That has been the case with my past border collies! Fantastic dogs, wouldn't trade them for the world!

 

However, once I become educated on something, I like to learn from it. Same reason I try to buy items made in the USA, after I became educated on how things are made in China and how many jobs are lost in the US. Same reason I raise and grow all the food I possibly can, all the rest I buy organic if possible, after I learned about how the commercialized food industry is.

 

So I guess I'm still left at my original question, who is a good reputable breeder? How many items can I accept as red flags, and how many shouldn't I accept?

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So I guess I'm still left at my original question, who is a good reputable breeder? How many items can I accept as red flags, and how many shouldn't I accept?

You have done your research. You have input from people on these boards.

 

Only you can know what red flags you will tolerate - as almost all breeders will have one or two or more. Set up a priority list of what you will absolutely not tolerate (AKC breeding), what is acceptable and which flags are borderline (i.e. you could be flexible on them as long as there aren't too many).

 

Like pups, no breeder is perfect. You will probably have to 'give' somewhere. You could find two breeders that are perfectly acceptable, but one camp might say - 'Don't go to breeder A, use B', whereas the other camp might say the exact opposite. Only you know your values and priorities.

 

For example, some people really want health guarantees. When I bought my 8-month old pup from a working breeder, there was not a health guarantee. The parents were 'health-tested', but no guarantee on the pups. I was fine with that. Reports of the health of previous litters were good. Health reports of relatives were good (with one glitch, but I felt that was due to environmental issues, not genetic). And honestly, was I going to return a pup after a year or two of loving and bonding if he should have a health issue? No, I would take my chances.

 

It is confusing to buy a pup, but you have done your homework, continue to research, and set a priority list, but at some point, you will have to take a leap of faith and just jump.....

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Mark, out here in Idaho, dogs that work these sheep would be considered working dogs as opposed to tending a small hobbyist flock or trialling on the weekends:

 

http://www.lifeontherange.org/range-stories/frank-shirts.htm

 

Just the same as a Schutzhund dog is a sport dog, not a working dog like a police k9. Or the same as a cutting horse that competes in the arena is for sport and different from a ranch horse.

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On 10/27/2014 at 6:38 AM, JaderBug said:

It's been a couple years since I saw a litter of them, but they didn't really broadcast it. Just listed them on whatever puppy-sale website (another strike IMO) they use, there were definitely multiple litters though. Might have had something on Facebook about them at one time. Ask them.

 

EDIT: Here you go.

I did not know that!

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You have done your research. You have input from people on these boards.

 

Only you can know what red flags you will tolerate - as almost all breeders will have one or two or more. Set up a priority list of what you will absolutely not tolerate (AKC breeding), what is acceptable and which flags are borderline (i.e. you could be flexible on them as long as there aren't too many).

 

Like pups, no breeder is perfect. You will probably have to 'give' somewhere. You could find two breeders that are perfectly acceptable, but one camp might say - 'Don't go to breeder A, use B', whereas the other camp might say the exact opposite. Only you know your values and priorities.

 

For example, some people really want health guarantees. When I bought my 8-month old pup from a working breeder, there was not a health guarantee. The parents were 'health-tested', but no guarantee on the pups. I was fine with that. Reports of the health of previous litters were good. Health reports of relatives were good (with one glitch, but I felt that was due to environmental issues, not genetic). And honestly, was I going to return a pup after a year or two of loving and bonding if he should have a health issue? No, I would take my chances.

 

It is confusing to buy a pup, but you have done your homework, continue to research, and set a priority list, but at some point, you will have to take a leap of faith and just jump.....

Thanks, that is very well put! I am of course willing to accept a few red flags, I have yet to find a site that doesn't have at least a few. I could never give up a dog after I got it, I get far too attached, far too quick! I will continue my searches and heed all advise listed, but still plan to use plain good 'ol common sense as well!

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Mark, out here in Idaho, dogs that work these sheep would be considered working dogs as opposed to tending a small hobbyist flock or trialling on the weekends:

 

http://www.lifeontherange.org/range-stories/frank-shirts.htm

 

Just the same as a Schutzhund dog is a sport dog, not a working dog like a police k9. Or the same as a cutting horse that competes in the arena is for sport and different from a ranch horse.

 

How would you evaluate this operation: Red Top Kennels ?

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