Training Contacts

[Keegan's Mom]

Does anyone have any good suggestions for training contacts?

 

Here is what I tried...putting Keegan on leash, works until he is off leash. I have tried a "lie down" at the contacts...no good...he does this well on sheep but not agility. I have tried getting him trained on a target such as a piece of carpet at home, then clicker him for standing on it...however, it is not interested in it so it is hard to train with it as well.

 

He getting a lot of control other places. If I give him an easy, he slows down but it can't be guaranteed that he actually hits his contacts.

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[MrSnappy]

I initially trained a running contact on Tweed, which turned out to be a big mistake as it deteriorated over time until all he was doing was running over the contact altogether (ie. not touching it).

 

So I retrained it by making "hit it" a seperate command. I taught him that hit it meant 20/20, on anything he was standing on (stairs, a piece of wood, the flyball practice box etc.). Then when I put him over contacts I gave him the "hit it" command as soon as he was on his way up.

 

It's excellent on the teeter and pretty good on the dogwalk, but we are still have problems with the A-Frame. If he screws it up, I put him back over the obstacle until he does the correct contact, upon which he gets rewarded. I also use "stay" to reinforce it.

 

Piper's contact is much better as I trained this way from the outset, but she goes over obstacles SO fast that sometimes she misses it because I don't always get the command out fast enough. She's getting there though.

 

RDM

[3crazybcs]

Rachel-

 

All of my dogs have 2on/2off contacts - front feet on the ground and back feet on the equipment. I trained them by first teaching them to touch a target with their noses using the command "touch". I use a 3 or 4 inch piece of plastic, plastic lids work great. First the target is in my hand, then on the ground in front of them, then further and further away so that they have to run to it. I use a clicker and yummy treats (make sure the dog is hungry too - making them touch the target for their kibble at mealtime is great).

 

Next, I use a contact trainer which a small a-frame on one side and a ramp like on a dog walk on the other side. You can use stairs or a plank too. The target is at the bottom of one side of the contact trainer (or stairs, plank) and I put the dog up on it about a foot from the contact and tell them to "touch". By now they know to go touch the target with their nose and I'm there to keep their back end on the contact zone. When in position I ask for multiple nose touches, with lots of reward. One they are reliably stopping in position and touching from about a foot away I start moving them back up the equipment and releasing them to touch in the 2o/2o position. Eventually they are doing the contact trainer from the beginning with me in different positions (either side, coming to me, going away from me) and I then move to the full sized equipment and finally I start to fade the target.

 

It's important that you have a release word too. My dogs learn that touch means to go to the target and wait for me to release them (my release word is ok). I don't use wait or stay on the equipment so the dogwalk would be command-for-the-obstacle, touch, ok.

 

The key is to progress slowly and keep the rate of reward high. If your dogs isn't getting it right take a step back. You said your dogs wasn't interested, wasn't interested in the rug or the clicker and the reward? If it was the rug he just might not have understood what you were asking of him and if it was the clicker and reward you could try a different treat, find something that makes him crazy. You can also use a toy as a reward but at this stage using treats is much easier for me.

 

There are lots of different ways to teach contacts but this is the way that has worked really well for me so far.

 

I hope this helps and let me know if you want me to explain further!

[Keegan's Mom]

Keegan is not interested in the rug. It seems that when we are at home, he thinks about balls. When we are at the soccer fields, he thinks about frisbees. When we are at the trainers, he thinks about agility. So when we are at home...he thinks about the ball...not the contact or even really food. Fortunately or unfortunately...whatever way you want to look at it, he is NOT food motivated. I even cut up a tasty Fugi apple for his reward and only fed him half his dinner and he still wasn't interesting in the learning about the rug.

 

Thanks for you suggestions.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom:

Keegan is not interested in the rug. It seems that when we are at home, he thinks about balls.

Why don't you reward him with the ball then? Rewards don't have to be all about food. I switch my reinforcement in agility all the time, between food, praise, balls and tuggy toys. If he is interested in the ball, reward him with the ball.

 

RDM

[Keegan's Mom]

Well, duh...I guess that would make the most sense!!! I will work on it this evening and some tomorrow. We have another lesson next Friday that we are working contacts on so this would be great if we can get this down.

 

We also learned running contacts, but Keegan is just way too fast and unpredictable as to whether he will actually hit the contact.

 

I will let you know how it goes.

[3crazybcs]

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom:

Fortunately or unfortunately...whatever way you want to look at it, he is NOT food motivated. I even cut up a tasty Fugi apple for his reward and only fed him half his dinner and he still wasn't interesting in the learning about the rug.

I'd try no dinner and a really high value treat like hot dogs or roast beef or some other stinky meat or meat product. Have you ever tried anything like that? If I'm training my dogs in the morning they get no breakfast and if it's around dinnertime they get no dinner until the training is done.

 

You can definitely use a toy as a reward. Does Keegan know how to tug? If not, you could teach him. It's a great way to reward with a toy and keep them physically with you and mentally focused on you. You can also have one toy or ball that he only gets when you're doing agility. Eventually just the sight of that toy will get him frantic to do agility with you.

 

I'm guessing that he shows no interest in the rug because he doesn't know what behavior is expected of him and he hasn't gotten enough/good enough rewards for it. You might try going back to square one and using something different, like a target that I explained before (or whatever else you want to use) and progressing in really small steps. He definitely sounds like he's got a lot of drive and loves to play with you so keep at it!

[3crazybcs]

Are you doing running contacts or having him stop on the contacts? It sounds like you've been trying both and if you are you'll have a hard time getting him to master either one. You might want to pick one and stick with it.

[Keegan's Mom]

I'm trying to get him to stop on contacts with little luck thus far.

 

I think I might have to take your advice of using something different in a totally new context...like outside during training time.

 

I just pulled the rug back out and used his ball as a reward. It is still not working and I'm getting a little frustrated. He stares at the ball, which is a usual thing, but he will walk around the carpet before stepping on it if at all. When he finally steps on it and I click and reward...I don't really even think he knows that he is standing on the carpet. If it makes any sense, I believe he is so focused on the ball that he doesn't even realize what is under his feet. I may get a big plastic bowl or something big that he would see at the end of a contact...and get him to "touch" it then reward. I will try this during this week before I start working crazy hours.

 

The rug thing is just not working, even with the ball reward. But I will also try to keep at this activity just in case it clicks, because I've only been at it for a VERY short, yet frustrating while. :confused:

[Tassie]

Rachel, is it worth trying a plastic lid for a touch target, like 3crazybcs said. You could do this as just target training in the house (i.e. not worrying about trying to set up a contact), and then follow it with the release word you will use to get Keegan off the obstacle. Then at training, you should be able to use the same target in the appropriate position to have him where you want him on the contacts, and he will be waiting for the release word.

 

We're actually doing stop at the end of the contact (rather than 2o/2o) and wait for release. We were working on the teeter today - took a little while for Kirra to get it, but she was finally able to hold it - hard for a super fast little dog.

[Keegan's Mom]

Originally posted by Tassie:

We're actually doing stop at the end of the contact (rather than 2o/2o) and wait for release. We were working on the teeter today - took a little while for Kirra to get it, but she was finally able to hold it - hard for a super fast little dog.

I know exactly what you mean. Keegan was faster than he knew what to do with. Now we have a lot of control but no contacts. I definetly want all four paws on then a release. This will also allow a front cross if necessary. We are working contacts at his lesson on Friday. We are back in private lessons until tax season is over.

 

I'm going to work the plastic container target this week during dinner time. I will let you all know next weekend how he training went. I gave up on the carpet. He actually goes out of his way to avoid the carpet...so no good!!!

[Rave]

A stop at the end, with 4 paws on, can be quite ambiguous to a dog....do I stop HERE? or Here? What about HERE? Where's the "end"? That is why you see more people using a 2on/2off - it's a specific position the dog can easily understand.

 

I'd suggest teaching a nose touch to a plastic target. Use a specific word (yes!) or a click to convey to Keegan that he's correct before you release (ok!) and throw the ball. Note there are 3 specific actions there before you even move a hand to give the ball - nose touch (once or multiple times), verbal mark, verbal release. Make sense?

 

Now since you are re-training contacts, once you get the nose touch established so that he'll give it to you anywhere away from ag. equipmt. (stairs are perfect for this since you can probably find many different sets in many different locations) and you've been able to fade the target and still have him offer the behaviour and you've proofed it against distractions and you have him running down a full flight of stairs at speed and hitting it successfully, THEN can you think about getting out to the agility field to real equipment. When you first try it on equipment, I'd put him in a harness on leash, run him over the equipment, and "help" him make the nose touch (with the target in place at first) if necessary. The harness/leash and the target will help him transition the behavior to the equipmt.

 

I've done this re-training method successfully with quite a few students' dogs.

 

-Laura

[airbear]

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom:

I'm going to work the plastic container target this week during dinner time. [/QB]

Here's a link to a very good article (and an excellent pic of a chicken on the dogwalk): http://www.clickerdogs.ca/targetcue.htm

 

FWIW, my little dog has 2o/2o contacts which were trained without a target, but I think it's probably easier to use a target. What I did basically was stair training. I put her on the second last stair, asked her to come to my side, and then blocked her from leaving the stairs completely (so she had her front feet on the ground, and her back feet on the stairs). Having a gate in front of the stairs helped too. Once she seemed to get this, I added a name to it (the very original 'touch'). It's funny, but she still descends the stairs like this when we go for our walks, and her little nubbin tail is just awaggin'. She really likes it, I guess (poor, demented dog).

 

On the actual equipment, I taught the DW and Frame contacts separate from the execution of the obstacle. On the DW (set low, at about 2') I had her hop up on the equipment about halfway down the contact zone, and then asked her for 'touch'. Believe it or not, she did it the first time, and hasn't really had a problem since (0 missed dogwalk contacts since teaching 2o/2o).

 

For the frame, I had her ascend the frame, set at about 3', turn around, and told her 'touch'. A bit more body blocking here at the beginning, but now she has a pretty independent and reliable Frame (2 missed frame contacts this year).

 

For us, the most important thing has been defining what is acceptable, and then not accepting anything else. Wick's criteria on the contact is front feet on the ground, rear feet on the equipment, look straight ahead, don't move until released. If she doesn't achieve this, even if she makes incidental contact, we re-do the obstacle. This means that we have 'lost' a few Qs (especially in NADAC, where the frame is quite a bit lower than what we're used to, and she occasionally ends up with all 4 on the ground) but that's ok. We lose way more Qs to other things anyways.

 

The pay-off is really consistent contacts, which are a godsend if you have a fairly fast dog. Good luck!

[Alaska]

Sounds like you need Julie Daniels' new DVD called Agility Fix-it: Contacts and Weave Poles. This one's been getting rave reviews on the agility discussion lists:

 

http://www.cleanrun.com/category.cfm?Category=257

[Keegan's Mom]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

Note there are 3 specific actions there before you even move a hand to give the ball - nose touch (once or multiple times), verbal mark, verbal release. Make sense?

Ok, my question is this...I get the nose touch...then I gradually move away the target. Do I say the specific command while he is nose touching? How will he know what I want after I take the target away?

 

OK, let's use the stairs as an example. Keegan is coming down the stairs, he gives a nose touch, I give him verbal mark (to say good boy basically), verbal release, then reward. If I move the target away...he will only go for the target unless I use a specific command to communicate what I want at the bottom of the stairs. How does he understand what I really want...which is for him to stop at the bottom of the stairs rather than touch the target???????

 

Thanks.

[Rave]

good questions. the target helps shape the behavior and position; once these are established, you can start to fade the target. If the behaviour (which is essentially a head bob, you determine how far) and position (2o/2o) has been sufficiently rewarded, then the physical cue for this behavior chain (target plate) can be randomly faded and the verbal cue should be all that is necessary.

 

How I fade the target is to ask for nose touch, then slide the target out with my foot and ask for another nose touch, quickly marking/rewarding before the dog has a chance to wonder "hey where's the target", then I'll slip the target back into place and ask for another nose touch. If this goes OK, then I'll increase the number of times there's no target plate there. Oh, I also use a clear target plate, so it's not as noticeable when it's removed.

 

It's very important to always ask for speed whenever you ask for movement. You initially teach the nose touch at a standstill on the flat, then at a standstill on the stairs, then ask for one step, then two, etc..., continuing to backchain up the stairs. When you start adding movement, rev Keegan up (restrain him if need be) and ask him for speed. At first, his back end might fall to the side; this is to be expected if the dog's weight has been on his forehand. With training the nose touch, he'll learn to keep his weight back, where it should be. To help him figure this out, narrow the stairwell (using your body to block off the rest) so he has to come down straight.

 

-L

[airbear]

Originally posted by Keegan's Mom:

How does he understand what I really want...which is for him to stop at the bottom of the stairs rather than touch the target???????

Faaaaade away ... The idea is that you are going to fade out the target so that eventually, 'touch' means to assume that position that you have deemed acceptable.

 

Others are far more eloquent in describing how to fade a target, but what I did with Bear when training a go-out to a mark was to trim the lid until it was smaller and smaller, and eventually it was about the size of a loonie (about a 50-cent piece for non-Canucks).

 

So if Keegan can target to a plastic lid at the bottom of the stairs with a high rate of success, independent of where you are, then you can start trimming the lid a bit smaller. Baby steps, because what you want is a dog who knows his job (confidence begets speed!). I take an 80-90% success rate as a sign that my dog knows his/her job at a stage and is ready for something harder. BTW, resist the urge to put a ball or treat on the lid!

 

Clean Run put out an AWESOME magazine all about contact training recently. http://www.cleanrun.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=1481

 

And what you're looking for if you're on a 2o/2o proponent is illustrated beautifully on pp 18-19 of the Clean Run contacts issue, right Laura?

[3crazybcs]

I fade my target by having it there maybe 4 out of 5 times, the 3 out of 5 times, etc. But I keep the target there for quite awhile, especially with young dogs and fade it very slowly. By teaching him to target independently of the obstacle (or stairs if you're starting with stairs) and then physically making sure he's staying in position once you put him on the obstacle he'll quickly figure out that to get a reward he has to touch the target in position in order to get a reward. And even now with my experienced dog I'll still bring it out in practice once in awhile just to reinforce the postion and the speed to the target.

 

If you are going to begin to retrain the contacts with a target I'd recommend not doing the contact obstacles at all until you've got him targeting off of the equipment. Letting him do the obstacles before he understands what the new criteria is going to be will just reinforce the old behavior.

 

I second the Clean Run contacts issue, it's a great resource!

[Rave]

Speaking of contacts, I've created a monster in my almost 9 week old puppy ... we've been working tippy boards a handful of times over the last week since it's so important to get them fearless of that movement early on. I have a teeter board on the ground in my backyard with a small 3" tip, so now everytime she goes outside she runs to the board, hops on and runs back and forth making it tip...LOL. Gotta love these over-achiever BC's.

 

-Laura

[D'Elle]

I am responding to this thread so late that it's possible no one will see my post. (was out of town for 2 weeks) But I am curious as to why airbear said to resist the urge to put a treat on the contact lid? My agility instructor has us teaching the contact points by putting treats on the end of the contact space on the DW, the teeter, and the a-frame, or on a lid on the ground at the bottom of the contact space. This seems to work well. Of course, I also work at home with Jes, daily asking him for a "touch" on various things: the electric outlets, my hand, a plastic lid on the floor, etc, without there being a treat on the contact plate, but he gets treated for touching with his nose. I know there are different ways of teaching, but I am interested in the reason that it might not be a good idea to put the treat on the contact plate. Is it because he might get to it without doing the proper contact 2o/2o? If so, that makes sense. I do not use the treat on the contact plate unless I am working with the trainer, and she is there to grab the plate if he jumps off the obstacle too soon.

[airbear]

Originally posted by D'Elle:

But I am curious as to why airbear said to resist the urge to put a treat on the contact lid?

Hi D'Elle,

 

I wouldn't use a treat on a target for three main reasons:

 

1. To the dog, it looks like sometimes he'll get the food on that dish thing, and other times, someone will rush up and take the food off the dish thing and there's a big commotion. Not too clear, at least to me, what you are asking him to do. For my dogs, all good things come from me, not from the floor.

 

2. Often, the dog will spend time looking for food on or near the target, when the behaviour I am looking for is a snappy drive to the bottom of the equipment and a specific position that doesn't involve sniffing or looking around for liver.

 

3. I don't find luring a dog to be as useful as rewarding a dog for correct behaviour.

 

If I used a target, I would break the behaviour into the smallest pieces possible - for example, (1) nose tap (or paw touch) on the target, on command, anywhere, anytime; (2) see wood, run (Nancy Gyes's term), which means that when you get to a piece of contact equipment, you are to haul butt across it in using as straight an approach as possible; (3)2o/2o (or 1RT0, or down at the bottom or whatever your criteria is) and nose tap on the target, which you will fade, etc.

 

I think that rewarding the dog in position (i.e. feed him under the chin while he is in position) is fine, so long as he holds the position. Then you can move to releasing the dog and rewarding, etc.

 

JMO, from watching the different methods of training.