New Border Collie Owner

[erin_ohagan]

Hi, I just wanted to stop by this forum and introduce myself and my 9-month-old dog, Dublin. Dublin was rescued from a dog hoarder in our area at the age of 5 months. She was living in a 10x20 foot outdoor kennel with two mama dogs and their 17 puppies! The woman signed all the dogs over and they were adopted out. I got Dublin at the age of 6-months after she'd spent a month in a foster and has been with me for 3 months now. Dublin is a BC-mix....not sure what she's mixed with exactly, but mom was BC and dad....well, who knows?

 

Even with this rough start in life, she's a gem with people. There doesn't seem to be any adverse affects of not being very people socialized early on. She definitely prefers the company of other dogs over people if she has the choice and loves playing with them. She loves me, but hasn't figured out that she can play with me as well as get loves/snuggles from me. It's made me consider getting a second dog, but that won't be happening any time soon.

 

Dublin just finished basic obedience with flying colors....other than loose-leash walking!!! She is so excited by other dogs that she practically twirls on a toe-nail when one gets close. She's better than she was 3-months ago, but still gets WAY too excited. We are have scheduled a 1-on-1 session with a trainer to help teach me some skills to handle this with her.

 

Dublin is my first dog. I did NOT intend to get a BC for a first dog, but she has such a sweet temperament, that she won me over when I met her. Fair warning, I might post questions on here a lot. As a first-time dog mom, and a natural worrier, I like to pick other's brains about things! My poor co-workers get the brunt of it, but I suspect I'll be posting on here too.

 

I am trying to see my dog as an individual who may or may not have the tendencies of her dominant breed. I am also trying to remember that she is still a VERY young dog and some of her "naughty dog" behaviors are likely to fade over time as she matures and especially grows out of her teen dog years and settles into being a pack member with me as the leader.

 

For exercise she is getting a two-mile walk with a backpack in the morning. A shorter mid-day walk of 15-20 minutes. And then either a second longer walk in the afternoon/evening or a romp at the dog park. She also goes to Doggy Daycare 1-2 days a week.

 

For mental exercise, we just finished basic obedience and I plan on taking her to level 2 after finishing up with the 1-on-1 trainer for loose-leash walking. She also gets stuffed Kongs that she loves. I have tried introducing a Buster Cube to her, as well as a Busy Buddy Biscuit Basket, and a Busy Buddy Bristle Bone. She LOVES kongs, and she LOVES the Bristle Bone, but she has shown limited interest in the Buster Cube and the Biscuit Basket.

I know mental and physical exercise are important for dogs, and I know each dog is different. Does this seem like enough? I know one of the signs of a bored dog is destruction, and I have lost one chair to her in the three months. Would you think that was boredom or age? I started crate training her after losing the chair...does anyone else out there crate their dogs (she is only crated for 4-6 hours a day max)?

 

Thanks for reading this long post!

[red russel]

Hi Erin,

 

Yes. Definitely crate train your dog. Also continue to make your puppy think. This will tire her more than anything else. Those naughty behaviors, sometimes unknowingly encouraged, may not fade with time. You will want to determine which ones you don't like and, perhaps, provide an alternative behavior for them. As an example we often get a dog to stop barking by teaching it to bark on cue. Or... the best way to get a pup to stop terrorizing livestock is (besides locking it up), when it is old enough, start training it on livestock.

 

cheers,

dave

www.leadmeontraining.com

[erin_ohagan]

Thanks for the fast reply, red russel,

Honestly, her "naughty behaviors" have been pretty limited, which is why the chair surprised me so much. The one chair incident and her excitement to other dogs are really the only two things that are a major concern to me. When I have caught her being "naughty" all I have to do is give a firm "No" and re-direct. She has the very common sensitive BC response and has run off a couple of times, even when I am saying "No" to the cats instead of her! I have started giving her her own stuffed animals to "eviscerate" instead of the furniture. Is this a good idea or does it just encourage her to pull stuffing/batting out of things?

 

She's rapidly improving at polite greetings and come when called. Her sit, down, stay, off, wait, leave it, and drop are almost perfect. Considering all of this was new to her a little over a month ago, I think that's pretty good! She even knows a few "tricks" like shake with either paw, spin (clockwise), up (from a down to a sit), jump (touch her nose to my hand at human eye level), and she targets her nose to my fist. We work on obedience training pretty regularly at home or wherever we are in addition to class.

 

Do you have any other suggestions for keeping her mentally engaged? I'd like to do agility with her when she is done growing and her growth plates are all fused....or, is this something I can start now?

 

Thanks again!

[Sue R]

Congrats to you for adopting her and really making an effort to work with her!

 

My only caveat at this point is that she is still young and growing, and it sounds to me like you may be doing a little too much in the way of walks. She's still at an age when her bones are growing and too much repetitive motion and impact (I know, walking isn't high impact but it is very repetitive and, if it is on pavement, does have impact) can be harmful to the growth plates that are not yet finished with their work.

 

Play at the dog park tends to be a bit different as she is setting her own pace - even though many youngsters probably run themselves ragged in that situation at that age! Plus, I'm assuming that that is on dirt/grass or another more forgiving surface than pavement.

 

Others I am sure with chime in with recommendations for activity levels at her age but I'm thinking that what sounds like five miles or so on a daily basis is probably a bit much at this point in her growth. I'd say that it would be fine by the time she's around 15 months of age, depending on how quickly her body matures and the growth plates close. The good thing is that you are not causing her to run, jump, and do other high-impact activities at this age.

 

Most people here are advocates of sensible crating, and I am one of them. That amount of time per day is not excessive, particularly when you give her physical exercise and mental exercise. It does help save the house when you can't supervise, prepare her for any emergency or veterinary stay, and gives her her own place to be quiet.

 

As for chewing, age plays a big part as teething is something that seems to compel pups/youngsters to chew on stuff! The answer to that is to provide suitable chew toys - I am a big fan of raw bones. Many folks like deer antlers. Boredom can also enter into the picture but with your varied activities and good chewing alternatives, plus crating when you can't supervise, and age, you will probably see quite a reduction in unwanted chewing in the near future.

 

Mental exercise can involved obedience and trick training; mentally-stimulating toys (like food dispensers); learning names for all her toys; basics to prepare her for agility and the world outside (learning to walk on different surfaces, for instance, stairs, elevators, grates, plastic sheeting and tarps); doing "gentling" exercises (touching her all over, looking in her mouth and ears, handling her feet - all things your vet will love you for and your dog will appreciate in the long run).

 

Take her places that allow dogs - I love Lowe's. My dogs ride in the cart, get to meet people (I have treats with me), and get exposed to other people and different sounds. There is a world of opportunity to socialize and broaden her outlook on life.

 

She sounds like a very lucky girl to have you and, for a first-time dog owner, you seem to have quite a firm grasp of working with your dog to keep her happy, fit, and mannerly.

 

Very best wishes!

[Camden's Mom]

I really wanted to second what Sue said about the distance of your walks, especially if they are on hard surfaces like roads or sidewalks. Also, if you are having her wear an empty backpack to get used to it, I think that's fine, but please do NOT add any extra weight to it (like a water bottle) until she's at least 16-18mo. Extra weight would just create more strain on her growing bones. It's tempting to walk them a ton to make sure they are physically worn out... I did and my dog paid the price. My little guy (16mo) has spent the last two months on limited activity (on leash only, no running, and off the sidewalks and roads... he's miserable) because of a growth plate fracture that wouldn't heal. Border Collies, especially at a young age, seem to have no concept of self preservation or limitations. They will gogogo as long as you ask them to and they can hurt themselves. (not trying to be overly dramatic about it, but just be careful with her growing body).

 

Crating... YES! It's so worth it. It gives the dog a safe space that is all her own. You can take the crate with you when you travel and she's always got her "den" to go to. Once she's used to it, she'll be very comfortable in the crate and you'll be able to leave the house without worrying she might destroy something or hurt herself. I would speculate that the vast majority of the members on this forum crate train their dogs.

 

Chewing - I agree with what others have suggested (antlers, raw bones) but also wanted to toss out Bully Sticks as another good chew option. Not only do puppies chew to relieve sore gums while their adult teeth are coming in, but I also understand they have to "set" the adult teeth into their jaws. Mine was a ferocious chewer until about a year old but things got much better after that.

 

I'm also a first time dog owner of a border collie, so I appreciate how daunting a task it seems! This forum has been a lifesaver for me (many times) in the last year or so. Sounds like you know what you are getting into and have Dublin's best interests at heart. You are an angel for rescuing this dog from the horrible conditions she had to suffer early in her life. She's one lucky pup to have found you and she sounds like an absolute doll. I think you guys are going to have a great life together. Congrats and have fun with her!

[Patches03]

Hello I'm new as well but not new to my bc mix. I've had her for 9 years.

[erin_ohagan]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I will definitely reconsider the distances we are walking. Sometimes instead of walks we play with the flirt pole in the grass in my front yard. However, I have found that this tends to really wind her up at times and I have to be careful about how many days we play with it. We have played fetch a little, but she seems reluctant to bring the ball back to me and would rather drop halfway back and chew on the ball. I am starting off slow with this, but she will maybe fetch 6-7 times before she just decides she wants to chew on the ball instead of play with me.

 

As for crate training....this has been very slow going. She will go in to the crate to get a treat if I throw it in the crate, but sometimes she will wait wait wait and then finally go get the treat after I've walked away. She has yet to actually go in the crate when I ask without me luring her in. And, maybe that's just what we will have to do for now. Tonight we start actually closing the door for short amounts of time and we will build up from there. If anyone has further tips on how to do this, I'd love to hear them.

 

The chair chewing was such a surprise because it was the first really destructive thing she's done in the 3+ months I have had her. She even went back to chew the chair this morning while I was home!!!! I didn't catch her, otherwise I would have said no and redirected. I don't know if she was just so timid and getting used to the situation those first months and is just now coming out of her shell. I spread some cayenne on the chair so that will hopefully deter her until I can get her fully crate trained.

 

I do give her bones to chew too. I have yet to buy antlers as they're a little more expensive. She gets a wide variety of things to play with/chew on. So, I don't think this is the issue. I'm starting to wonder if she's got a mild case of separation anxiety. She howled/cried this morning for a little when I left. She's only done this once before that I can remember. I don't make a big deal of leaving, and she always gets a stuffed frozen Kong to ease that transition. I'll be interested to see what state the house is in when I get home. It will be nice when she's fully crate trained.

 

Thanks again all!

[waffles]

For the crate issue-I suggest higher value food to be tossed inside. Cook some chicken breast and chop it up, hot dogs, anything moist and smelly. Only feed her her meals in her crate, even if you don't close the door yet. Once she is in though you can close the crate for a second, 10 seconds, until she is done eating, ect. Then start closing the door and locking it, walk out of sight then come right back. Take things as fast or as slow as she can go. There are endless ideas for crate training on the internet as well. I always recommend people watch videos on youtube or even talk with her trainer who you mentioned was coming to your house for tips.

 

It honestly sounds like you are doing a wonderful job with your first dog! Things get better and settle down with time, remember it is still so early in your relationship.

[Camden's Mom]

I don't think "luring" her into the crate is a bad thing at this point. Some people feed meals in the crate, at least during the training process. If you are going to give her a yummy raw bone or stuffed Kong, why not place it in the crate? You don't have to close her in, but make it so the crate is the source of many good things. When I'm doing laundry I inevitably find some dry kibble bits in my jeans pockets and I just toss them in the crate. At some point he must wander by and see food in there because it's always gone by the time we crate him for the evening. I like to make good things magically appear in the crate every now an then... it keeps the space extra special. I'm sure others will have advice on crate training tips, but it sounds like you are on the right path!

 

I did want to mention... when I first started researching crate training everyone said to have the crate in a high traffic area so the dog does not feel alone. I'm curious how others feel about this because it most certainly did NOT work for us. My guy needed legit "down time" to settle and nap. Having his crate in a high traffic area was not good. If anyone even moved he'd pop up and be wide awake. BCs want to be involved, so if *anything* was happening my boy wanted to join in. As soon as we put his crate off in a quite corner of the bedroom he was able to relax and rest in it. I hesitate to recommend you do this, as it goes against what you commonly read, but it worked well in my situation.

 

I'm afraid I don't have experience with separation anxiety, but hopefully some other members will be able to give you some helpful tips!

[Sue R]

I'm not really a fan of the flirt pole or any other instrument that can lead to a dog getting wound up, and also to a dog that has learned to chase something like flapping fabric (pants legs, anyone?). When you do an activity, don't only thing about that activity and what you are doing, but also about what you might be teaching inadvertently.

 

Crate training - going slow is fine if you have the time but if I had a pup that has been destructive (and now is revisiting that destruction), I would not leave her alone unsupervised and uncrated. Sometimes, some pups just need to be put in their crate, with a diversion like the frozen Kong, and left there. It sounds like she is smart enough (she's a Border Collie, right?) that she's beating you at your own training game right now. It is amazing how pups (and dogs) can learn the rules and restrictions when they have to, as long as the owner has the patience and persistence to make it happen.

 

The suggestion above about using high-value treats is a good one (make the crate treat something special and desirable) but don't let her be playing you like she is. She sounds a lot like my Dan...

 

There's separation anxiety and there is also the dog that just doesn't want you to go because it's boring without you. I have one that I would never say has separation anxiety but who is my shadow and can complain for a few minutes when I leave, but he usually doesn't. Sometimes, they just have to learn that this is what happens and they will live through it.

 

Best wishes!

 

PS - I do feed my dogs in their crates, all meals, all raw bones and raw meaty bones. Keeps things cleaner and associates the crate with another good thing in life.

[Oko]

On the note of flirt pole wind up: We play with a holee roller on a string, on a pole maybe 2x a week or so. Are there rules when you play? For instance, with my girl, the ball only becomes available to chase if she sits and looks at me, and we practice cues between chase sessions. She also must 'out' when asked. I think it can actually be a good way to teach them to get back into their heads and listen while being excited. Just my 2 cents.

[erin_ohagan]

Great suggestions on crate training. I have actually considered moving the crate into the kitchen (honestly, less traffic) instead of the living room, where it is right now, simply because there is a corner bench in my eating nook that has a natural "den" spot in the corner. This is where she escapes when she thinks she is in trouble, or sometimes goes when she wants a quiet dark place to sleep if I'm still awake with the lights and TV on. I had even considered just blocking in into the kitchen instead of crating her all together since she likes this spot so much. I have fed her all of her meals in her crate over the last few days, so I'll keep doing that and just start locking her in for lengths of time. Plus, cook up some smelly meaty treats for other training sessions. And, you are right...she's totally playing me right now. This is probably the one thing I am learning with BCs the most....just how smart they really are! For example with her Buster Cube I had to really be sure that in my teaching her how to use it, she wasn't teaching ME to just get the thing rolling so she could get the treats!

 

I did get a call from my mid-day dog walker that the house was fine when he went to get her...so perhaps I'm jumping the gun on "separation anxiety." Especially since this was only the second time she's "complained" when I've left. Usually she's starting to crash out in one of her sleep spots and stirs just enough to lick away at her frozen Kong.

 

When we play with the flirt, pole, yes, absolutely rules rules rules! She has to stay "down" and not move until she's released with a "get it." She is allowed to chase and eventually catch the lure. We then tug a little before she is supposed to "drop" the toy. She's learned that two pats to the head and an "all done" mean that we are done (this also applies to being petted etc. too..."all done" with the two pats means "no more."). She's often tired when we go in from this, but I have really cut back on the amount of flirt pole playing we do because sometimes, not always, she comes in the house and just can't seem to come down. I've tapered off to maybe once every other week or so, just when the weather is particularly heinous and I'd rather spend 15 minutes with the flirt pole than 40 on a walk.

 

Any other advice or tips on how outsmart my dog on crate training are greatly appreciated!

[gcv-border]

Good ideas on the crate training! Also, I believe that you can exploit their natural tendencies (she likes a particular corner - so put her crate there) to make training easier.

 

Since she is currently showing some off-and-on destructive tendencies, I suggest continuing to crate train her and crating her every time you leave (and leaving her with a frozen stuffed Kong as you have been doing). It is so easy for these dogs to pick up on bad behavior that it is better to prevent it and/or stop it before it happens or becomes a habit.

 

BTW, I put my dog in a crate (with a treat/chew toy) every time I left the house until he was about 18-20 months old. He was a pretty good pup (only a few chew incidents, etc.), but I felt it was more important not to let mistakes happen than to let him have free run of the house too early.

 

Jovi

[waffles]

From the sounds of your last post I would think you could start closing her in the crate with a meal or kong and walk away. Go outside for 10-15 min and come back. If she isn't throwing a fit let her out. That'll tell you whether or not she is playing you. From there just keep upping the time she is locked in the crate. It sounds like she doesn't really have anxiety or a fear of the crate so I would get things progressing faster.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I will definitely reconsider the distances we are walking. Sometimes instead of walks we play with the flirt pole in the grass in my front yard. However, I have found that this tends to really wind her up at times and I have to be careful about how many days we play with it. We have played fetch a little, but she seems reluctant to bring the ball back to me and would rather drop halfway back and chew on the ball. I am starting off slow with this, but she will maybe fetch 6-7 times before she just decides she wants to chew on the ball instead of play with me.

 

I would probably play ball and stop before she decides to stop. That may mean just a few throws, but i think that would be better than going till she quits.

 

J.

[Camden's Mom]

If she isn't throwing a fit let her out.

And if she IS throwing a fit, it's very important that you not let her out until she calms down. Otherwise the lesson is "I bark and whine and cry and then I get let out of my crate". Sorry if that is obvious or you already knew it, but doing that one time means you're going to have to deal with a LOT of tantrums in the crate in the future (until the lesson is un-learned).

 

I like the idea of putting the crate near her quiet spot!

[erin_ohagan]

Ok, so she was totally playing me. Not wanting to go in the crate is NOT the same thing as being afraid of the crate! I just went for it after seeing that she would go into the crate for treats and to eat (though not when I asked) and I just put her in the crate with a frozen Kong, shut the door, and hung out in the room with her for 15 minutes or so. She was perfectly fine. She just laid down and licked away at the Kong.

 

So, from now on going in the crate is not her decision but mine and we will just continue to lengthen the time. Tonight I plan on crating her for a full hour with me home. Tomorrow we will move to a shorter time with me gone and then continue to lengthen from there.

 

I caught her sniffing the chair last night, gave a firm NO, and she slunk away to her corner where she goes when she's in trouble. I'm not saying this cures the problem, and honestly, she could just find a new piece of furniture to gnaw on, but I'm hoping at minimum this particular chair is now off limits in her mind. She's usually REALLY good not going back to something once she's been given the "NO." In fact she has never gone back once she's heard the no. I will, however, continue to crate train and then crate her.

 

Two last questions....how will I know when she's old enough to be trusted out of her crate? And, what do you leave with the dog in the crate once they're in it for a longer length of time besides Kongs? I'd like to use it when needed, but eventually give her free reign of the house again. That time isn't now, obviously, but is there some sort of sign to look for to know she can be trusted. Honestly, until this chair, she's been an absolute gem in the house. This is the first thing she's touched.

 

thanks again!!

[erin_ohagan]

Oh, one other thing. When I left this morning I hung around outside where she couldn't see me to hear if she was crying/whining when I left again. Sure enough, she did cry/whine for about 30 seconds to a minute, but then was quiet. Does this qualify as separation anxiety?

[gcv-border]

Oh, one other thing. When I left this morning I hung around outside where she couldn't see me to hear if she was crying/whining when I left again. Sure enough, she did cry/whine for about 30 seconds to a minute, but then was quiet. Does this qualify as separation anxiety?

 

Heck no!

 

Jovi

[gcv-border]

.

Two last questions....how will I know when she's old enough to be trusted out of her crate? And, what do you leave with the dog in the crate once they're in it for a longer length of time besides Kongs? I'd like to use it when needed, but eventually give her free reign of the house again. That time isn't now, obviously, but is there some sort of sign to look for to know she can be trusted. Honestly, until this chair, she's been an absolute gem in the house. This is the first thing she's touched.

 

thanks again!!

 

Hmmm, not sure if there is a definite indication of when you no longer have to crate her when gone, but for me, I started to think about the possibility of not crating when I left when I felt my dog was no longer the busy body he was as a pup. I felt that he had begun to show some restraint and patience in every day life. As I said before, he was about 18 months old. I may have kept him in the crate longer than I needed, but I didn't feel that he 'needed' to be out and roaming the house. He had a very nice crate with a cushy bed and treats were thrown in there, and often a Kong, when we left.

 

When I stopped using the crate, it was a gradual transition. I would leave him out for 10-15 minutes while I was outside the house doing something. I increased the time alone gradually - 20 minutes, 30 minutes, etc. over the period of a few months. Where I live, it is at least 20 minutes one way to get to a store. So the early periods of free time were just me going outside the house and coming back in later. Only when he got up to an hour outside the crate was I able to really leave for errands - but always kept the clock ticking in my head to make sure I got home in time.

 

Jovi

[erin_ohagan]

Heck no!

 

Jovi

I didn't think so either, but just wanted to double check.

[Jescano]

The first time I left my pup alone in his crate he CRIED for probably 5-10 minutes(I should have just left instead of staying and listening) and he hasn't done it since. Now maybe 1 out of 5 times he'll quietly whine for 30 sec - a minute but then he's done and he'll relax till I get back. He goes with me most places though and has a crate in the car too. When I'm working he just sleeps in there, and I've never heard a peep when he's crated in the car.

 

 

Sounds like she gets it :-)

[erin_ohagan]

I just went for it yesterday afternoon. I had a short work day, so I came home, played with her for a bit and took her to the pet store for some socialization training. Then, came home, lured her into the crate with a new toy and popped a movie in for an hour or so. She was perfectly fine. Actually, she was almost asleep when her time was up in there.

 

Much later that evening, after some obedience training (by the way, does anyone else's dog "tell" you they're bored with the training sessions by rolling over for a belly scratch instead of obeying a cue? LOL) and some playing, I crated her again with a Kong and a bone and left for about an hour and a half (was this too long for her first time in there alone?).

 

When I came home, the crate was slightly off center from where I left it and she was a panting a little, but seemed fine. I baited the crate throughout the rest of the evening and this morning with treats just to reinforce it being a good place and she continued to go right in for the treats.

 

Does this seem OK? Am I OK to keep building lengths of time to keep her in there or was an hour and half too long for her first session in there? She is at Doggy Daycare today, but I do have plans this evening and I am wondering if I can crate her for the time I'm gone (maybe 2 hours)?

 

Thanks for your advice everyone.

[Jescano]

Much later that evening, after some obedience training (by the way, does anyone else's dog "tell" you they're bored with the training sessions by rolling over for a belly scratch instead of obeying a cue? LOL)

Doesn't roll over for a belly scratch but will flop on the ground and put his head down and not move. Then we usually do 2-3 more upbeat tricks and we stop and do something else(He hasn't done this in a while though)But I've also started mixing up his rewards, sometimes he's gets something REALLY yummy, sometimes he gets a bit of kibble, sometimes he gets a toy(outside toys and really yummy treats work best for mine). As I don't want him to think that him doing this ends it, I decide when we're done.

 

hour and a half (was this too long for her first time in there alone?).

Usually you'd want to build up to that amount of time alone. But what's done is done, right?

 

If she's at doggy daycare all day she'll probably be pretty tired once she gets home? I don't think two hours is too much, but that's for a dog who's used to it.

[erin_ohagan]

Usually you'd want to build up to that amount of time alone. But what's done is done, right?

 

If she's at doggy daycare all day she'll probably be pretty tired once she gets home? I don't think two hours is too much, but that's for a dog who's used to it.

So, do you think adding more time now is going to be too much for her since she isn't used to it? She didn't seem reluctant to go into the crate to get treats and even sniffed around in there later. I just don't want to do it wrong if I can help it. Should I scale back and not add time? I'm not sure what I'd do with her tonight if I don't crate her.