possible overreaction...

[loggerboots]

Hi Folks,

We have an off leash area in my neighborhood and it's been a great thing for Emmie. She's really come out of her shell and gained a lot of confidence playing with the other neighborhood dogs and their owners. Emmie has many 'dog friends' and really loves going there. There are lots of lovely, well socialized dogs and they have fun romping around together.

However, there's one nasty dog that comes there every once in a while - a very big (probably 90-100 pounds or so) doodle of some kind. He's attacked Emmie twice, not viciously, but enough to scare her, and he's so much bigger that her inhibited defense seems to do nothing but make him more excited. He's also gone after a lot of other dogs. He's a prolific humper and just nasty all around.The owner doesn't really do much when his dog is mauling someone elses except call him, which doesn't really do anything.

 

Today, I went down with my wife and this dog was there. I told her we shouldn't go in, but she wanted to go, so I went along with it. I told her to keep Emmie on lead. Naturally, this big, stupid dog came loping up to us, but it didn't look like it was going to cause an trouble. I was watching it warily, noted that the owner was at least a hundred feet away, sitting on a bench, so I started walking back to where my wife was with Emmi. Sure enough, the dog very quickly went around and jumped on the back of Emmie and started mounting her, humping away at the air.

 

I didn't really give him time to get going and didn't even give Emmie a chance to defend herself, but I did forcibly move the dog away from her. I didn't hurt the dog, but I wasn't gentle. either. This is a really big, forceful dog and not really responsive to his owner when excited, so I took things into my own hands. My wife was appalled and I'm sure others in the park might have been taken aback as well. I think I probably did overreact and I feel a bit ashamed. We quickly left the park after this happened and didn't look back. The owner said nothing to me.

 

Ok, I'll accept I overreacted, however as I explained to my wife, given prior history, I felt I was defending my dog. Next time the dog is around, I won't take my dog there and I'll leave if he comes in.

 

What do you guys think? How much force is appropriate when a much larger male dog is attempting to mount your female? Is there any way to distinguish a dominant or playful mount from a sexual one? If it's sexual, is there a danger of the male dog forcibly tying the much smaller dog, or should I just have let her fend him off?

[juliepoudrier]

Without having seen how forceful you were, it's hard to say if it was too much. You do have a right to protect your dog from misbehavior from other dogs, but I wouldn't encourage violence.

 

Humping behavior isn't mating, and another dog isn't likely to tie with her unless she was in standing heat. In that case (being in heat), if she wasn't ready to be bred she likely would have let him know in no uncertain terms. (And presumably no one would take an intact female in standing heat into a communal dog park type area).

 

J.

[Liz P]

I don't think you overreacted, but I would not have gone inside with the problem dog. You need to defend your dog from the idiots of the world.

[Gloria Atwater]

I think going in there with that dog was a mistake, but given that you say your dog's responses to him just make him more excited, it sounds like she can't drive the dog off herself. And he's scaring her, to boot. Am I correct?

So, given that you were there and the owner is doing nothing, it sounds like you did exactly what I would have done. If the owner won't manage his rude, excitable, overwhelming and obnoxious dog, then I'd damn sure step in, myself. I simply will not tolerate that sort of repeat behavior in a dog who's already proven himself a problem.

The mistake was being there. But that's like saying someone deserved to be mugged because they were in a parking lot. I would totally have taken care of my dog. And for people to think you were wrong for doing so ... those people need to be more vocal to people who own rude dogs like that.

Next time walk away, is my advice. But this time I'm on your side.

~ Gloria

[loggerboots]

Thanks, yes, I entered the area against my own instincts, point taken. Won't happen again.

As far as mating vs. aggression - Emmie is not in heat, unless it's silent. I had the vet check her last time we were there (a week ago) and had her show me how to check. I check her before we go and she's not. So, I guess is the other dog's behavior is most likely a dominance thing, but... I am paranoid since Emmie's *is* intact (I had planned on waiting a bit longer to get her fixed, but perhaps it's time).

 

Maybe I'm overprotective, but this dog does scare her and seems not to care about my dog's signals - and I don't want her feeling that she has to defend herself when I'm standing right there next to her, esp against a dog 3X her size. It's on odd situation, which I'll try to avoid going forward.

 

I should probably have a talk with this guy, too. His dog mauled a ladies dog the other day and she didn't say anything to him but was pretty pissed about it when I talked with her afterwords. Might be time to ask him to not take this dog there as it's upsetting other dogs and owners. It's a fine line between letting dogs be dogs, but I think I'm sort of over this particular dog's antics.

[B Point]

Me....? B line to the owner for a chat. Stay cool, stay positive. Hopefully he's the same way.

 

If not, throw down!!

 

(kidding of course)

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr. Loggerboots,

 

You did what I would have (probably more noisily). I'd try talking to the owner (it is his fault his dog misbehaves with other dogs). My experience with dog parks is there's often (not always) someone formally or informally in charge - they're the ones to talk to about the other dogs his dog is abusing and whether or no he should be banned. If you tell him "Shake up or ship out" be ready for a dustup.

 

Donald McCaig

[alligande]

Depending on the level how hard you pushed the dog off, I see nothing wrong in protecting your dog. I personally hate dogs that go round humping in that environment, and their owners that think its cute. My own dog finds it very rude and will bare his teeth which makes him look like the aggressor, so on the rare occasions we are in a dog park like place I just watch out and either call him back or go and quietly interven.

[Carol Lea Benjamin]

While some people just love big dogs and have well behaved big dogs and are appropriate about what they do with their dogs, there are people who have big, overbearing dogs for another reason. Some people actually like it when their dogs are bullies. Hey, I didn't do anything. It was the guy in the flea collar, not me.

 

Don't know the situation in this case, but just something to consider if the talk doesn't go the way you want it to.

[Alchemist]

While some people just love big dogs and have well behaved big dogs and are appropriate about what they do with their dogs, there are people who have big, overbearing dogs for another reason. Some people actually like it when their dogs are bullies. Hey, I didn't do anything. It was the guy in the flea collar, not me.

 

Don't know the situation in this case, but just something to consider if the talk doesn't go the way you want it to.

 

Agree 100%. I used to go to a dog park. I thought it might be a way to get to meet other dog-oriented individuals. What spoiled it were the people with big, ill-behaved dogs, who had exactly this attitude. When people started to warn me to steer away from thus-and-such dog because he'd grabbed a French bulldog by the neck and shaken it the previous week ... and no, there really wasn't anything anyone could do about it, people had talked to the owner on any number of occasions .... I decided life was too short to put up with the aggravation of such a$$es. I now hike with my dogs off-leash in places where the density of other dogs (and the probability of negative encounters) is much lower.

 

And I hang out at sheepdog trials, and take lessons, as a way of getting to know other dog-oriented individuals.

 

It's a copout, I know, and not everyone is lucky enough to have multiple options. But the sad fact is that in such situations the owner often bears some responsibility in the poor behavior of many dogs, and they may not be particularly receptive to suggestions. (If they *were* responsible, and knew their dogs were poorly behaved, would they have them at a dog park in the first place?). Nor is there much anyone can do about it, absent a person in charge on the spot.

[loggerboots]

Thanks, yeah, I wonder about this guy... one of the other times his dog assaulted mine was outside of the off leash area. I had Emmie on a lead and he was getting his dogs out of the car. His dogs were in the back seat. I figured he was going to wait until we were past and then get his dogs out, but instead, he opened the door just as we were passing and *both* his dogs jumped mine. That time, I was able to pull Emmie back by the lead and sheild her with my body from the other two while the owner yelled and grabbed for their collars. He did apologize and asked if Emmie was alright (she yelped pretty loud, only because I stepped on her foot while trying to sheild her, but he didn't know that). I was polite that time, gave him the benefit of the doubt. I do wonder about the timing of him opening the door like that, he knew I was coming.... maybe he's just a jerk or really, really clueless.

 

I did end up going back to the park after about an hour after the incident assuming he had left (he had) and a few of the regulars were there and Emmie had a good time with her friends. One of the people who saw the incident was still there. I apologized and said it was just an instinctual reaction and he said something like, "it's alright - your pack comes first" and then told me the guy didn't seem to really react to what I had done and may have been oblivious.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'd vote for him being generally clueless and oblivious.

In that case, perhaps a (very kind, even-tempered) talk might be in order. What his dog is doing has NOTHING to do with mating and everything to do with rude dominance behavior. You'd have to think about your choice of words, perhaps, but you certainly have every right to tell him that his dog intimidates and frightens her, and could he please make sure his dog just leaves her alone.

I mean, honestly, how would that guy feel if some big, obnoxious guy leaped on HIS back, every time he showed up at the park? It's the exact same thing. Exactly.

Best of luck, and never apologize for defending your family, even if it's the four-legged part.

~ Gloria

[Tommy Coyote]

I don't do dog parks. I think they are dangerous. The danger is from other dogs, ignorant people and also disease.

 

But I have a big back yard where my dogs can play. It's not so easy if you live is an apartment or don't have any place for your dog to run and play.

[Murray Momma]

Ahh, the inconsiderate dog owner. The bane of the dog park. Murray and I used to go regularly but thanks to jerks like the guy you describe, we don't go as often. I have been known to "grow a pair" (mind you I am a 5' 4" rather petite lady) and tell someone that their dog was too aggressive and perhaps needed to be removed from the park for a breather. There's a couple of Ridgebacks who would regularly bowl Murray over (think a log roll down a hill) and the guy would laugh. Not funny to me or to Mur. I'd still tell him to check his dogs. It's a drive to the dog park but I still will turn around if that guy's truck is there. We'll go to the local pet store to say hi to the owner and get a fancy treat instead. No sense in having Mur hurt by some jerk's dogs while we're there to have a good time.

[dogrsqr]

If it is a Doodle, most I've met have absolutely no dog language skills and are very pushy.

 

You can try talking to the owner, but don't be surprised it that doesn't go anywhere.

 

If you have another option to exercise your dog I'd just stay away from the dog parks. We have one a mile away from our house and never go there. We have a fenced yard and invite friends over with their dogs if we want a doggy playdate.

 

 

Maybe I'm overprotective, but this dog does scare her and seems not to care about my dog's signals - and I don't want her feeling that she has to defend herself when I'm standing right there next to her, esp against a dog 3X her size. It's on odd situation, which I'll try to avoid going forward.

 

I should probably have a talk with this guy, too. His dog mauled a ladies dog the other day and she didn't say anything to him but was pretty pissed about it when I talked with her afterwords. Might be time to ask him to not take this dog there as it's upsetting other dogs and owners. It's a fine line between letting dogs be dogs, but I think I'm sort of over this particular dog's antics.

[Shetlander]

I'm so glad I have a yard for my dog to run around in and don't need to consider using a dog park. It is enough of a chore avoiding the yahoos and their badly behaved dogs at the beach.

[loggerboots]

Well, in defense of this park, it's right in my neighborhood and used mostly by regulars with good dogs. This guy only shows up every once in a while. It's also been really good for Emmie. When I first took her there, she would hide under the bench of approached by any dog or person, now she's very confident and playful with the dogs she knows and much less apprehensive about new dogs or people. So, I don't use it much for exercize as I do for socialization, though she does get a fair amount of exercize playing chase and keepaway with other dogs (and she always wins, haha).

[Shetlander]

Some people love their dog parks. My neighbor likes to take her little dog to one and has tried to get me to go with her. Maybe it's the control freak (or the safety freak) in me, but I just don't trust a lot of people and their dogs. And now Quinn is of an age where he isn't interested in playing with dogs he doesn't know. In fact, he has a bubble he does not want invaded when we pass by other dogs. Oddly, the opinionated Lhasa is my dog most likely to want to make friends with a strange dog, provided it is small and preferably female.

 

When Quinn was young, he had a "play group" of dogs belonging to friends at my club. We'd meet at the club or one of our houses to play with the dogs and chat with each other. I noticed he went from being focused on the other dogs when he was a puppy to doing some quick greetings with his best pals ("Dude!") and then focusing on having the humans throw Frisbees or balls for him. All our Border Collies seemed to fall into this pattern as they matured, we noticed. So even if I wanted him to play with other dogs, I don't think he'd be interested. He still enjoys being with his friends, but I think at some of that excitement upon meeting is because he knows they signal fun things like fetch or the beach.

[urge to herd]

There are some parks I avoid like the plague, and a couple that have worked out very nicely. There are a few parks that are mainly parks for people, but have off-leash hours in the morning, usually until 8:30 or 9. The one I've been going to lately has been really good. Gibbs loves to play with other dogs and has excellent dog skills. Last Friday he got to play with an exuberant but mannerly young female pointer.

 

They wrestled and chased and hip checked each other for 15 minutes. It was very sad when we all had to say good-bye.

 

I have stepped in before and will continue to do so when something dumb is going on. IME, the humans tend to be more clueless than the dogs, sadly.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs, who knows how to show a girl a good time!