How adept are dogs are at reading facial expressions & body language?

[arf2184]

Meg is a bit incontinent and occasionally pees in her sleep. She'll wake up realizing she's peed and look guilty before I even know. She was fully potty trained when we brought her home and has not been punished for accidents at our house. Matty (a past dog) was the same way. They weren't reading me because I didn't always know about the mess when I saw their reaction to it. Also, my reaction to messes is to put the dog outside (just in case they're not done) while I clean up. I don't coddle the dogs with reassurances or make a fuss. I don't think the expression is fear of punishment or a reaction to me...I think they really are just upset about having peed (or worse) in the house, possibly embarrassed (who knows?).

 

As far as the 'guilty' look goes for doing something they know they aren't supposed to do, I think with Bear and Meg it is definitely just a reaction to what they read from my body language, facial expressions included. Meg is way better at reading me and will often respond to the slightest change in my breathing. She always looks 'guilty' first, even though she doesn't do things she's not supposed to do and is not the one I'm upset with. Bear (who is always the offending party) requires a bit more cues from me before he knows I'm upset with him.

 

Meg also always knows before Bear when we're going to go somewhere or when its time to go outside, etc. She's just that much better at reading people AND she pays closer attention.

[mum24dog]

Funnily I practised both tai chi and aikido.

I am also a physical therapist, and studied a couple of years biology at a dutch university.

I don´t believe in the existence of "ki" or however you want to call this mysterious life force.

 

You do and that is (of course) okay, and you don´t have to explain it more on my account, I seriously doubt you´ll come up with anything I haven´t come across or heard about (had some friends as a student who were very much into new age and related stuff ).

And it is not very interesting discussion material, because it just boils down to "one believes it or not".

 

@Waffles, I don´t think this disagreement has anything to do with language difficulties.

 

What I think is likely is that people do not consciously recognise some of the sensory signals they are being given but their subconscious does. Our brains would be seriously overloaded if we had to think about every little thing we meet.

No need for a mysterious sounding label.

 

As for first impressions being right, selection bias means that the occasions when a gut feeling proves to be correct are remembered, the ones that were wrong forgotten.

[simba]

As for first impressions being right, selection bias means that the occasions when a gut feeling proves to be correct are remembered, the ones that were wrong forgotten.

 

Or people will rewrite the memory to make it seem like they suspected that person all along, or will emphasise different parts, without intending to or knowing they're doing/have done it. Hence part of why witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

 

I know very few people who I know to be awful people, but they were all people I liked at first, because I like almost everyone at first. Having said that, the terrier has a much better track record at this than I do, because she suspects lots of innocent people, and occasionally catches guilty ones.

 

 

They remember actions, though, more so than we do in some ways- maybe they rewrite them less or something? Again, the household dogs all hate one particular person because they saw her behaving very threateningly to someone else, so they do not let those two people stay in a room together without sitting between them. Rightly so, too.

 

I do think they respond to sights, smells, and movements that we're not even aware of, and probably couldn't be if we tried. Witness the dogs who just jumped up because I'm about to finish this post, and settled down again when I decided to edit. It's easier to say 'energy' to summarise those, because we probably will never know in most instances which cue the dog picked up.

[Laurae]

Great post, simba. Spot on.

[terrecar]

@Waffles, I don´t think this disagreement has anything to do with language difficulties.

 

As an outside observer, I don't see it as language difficulties in terms of differences in dialect but I do see it as language difficulties in a more general sense. You seem more inclined to speak like an empiricist, so I understand why you would prefer words that are clear of any perceived mysticism. However, sometimes people use the term "energy" without really meaning anything ethereal. I once thought I caught a philosopher friend (who is a naturalist) in a bit of cognitive dissonance when he used the word "intuition". I asked what he meant by intuition, and without missing a beat, he explained it in completely naturalistic terms.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that is how I see it in my little corner of the universe.

[geonni banner]

I think one thing that’s being missed here is that dogs can have feelings about things that happen to them which don’t involve us at all. Dogs don’t relate everything that happens to them to us or our possible reaction to it. We’ve all seen dogs express a range of emotions when dealing with each other and inanimate objects. Dogs can become frustrated with a particularly toothy flea, a toy lodged in a crevice, or any number of other things. They can have other kinds of responses as well.

 

I’m sure most people are aware that there are dogs which dislike getting dirty, just as there are those which are absolute mud-hogs, and others who fall somewhere in between or are oblivious to the whole dirty/clean thing.

 

I once had a collie that would go to great lengths to avoid getting his paws muddy. When this was impossible he would do the “icky paw walk” and show great relief when I either hosed off or wiped off his paws.

 

I once had a Doberman Pinscher that would show clear signs of disgust when she encountered another dog’s “accident” in the house. She did this on two occasions when visiting dogs left a pile in the house. Upon encountering the pile, she began walking slowly, lifting her feet very high, as if to avoid the offending substance, licking her lips in disgust.

 

Why is it not possible that a dog which has an accident in the house be embarrassed on its own account, rather that because it fears or reads a reaction from its owner?

[terrecar]

Why is it not possible that a dog which has an accident in the house be embarrassed on its own account, rather that because it fears or reads a reaction from its owner?

 

 

Oh I think that is a valid point. Hannah has never had an accident in the house, but Sophie (a Chi) has, and she seemed rather embarrassed by the whole deal before I even discovered it. It is not like she was corrected, since I didn't catch her in it and it was my fault anyway.

[Root Beer]

Meg is a bit incontinent and occasionally pees in her sleep. She'll wake up realizing she's peed and look guilty before I even know. She was fully potty trained when we brought her home and has not been punished for accidents at our house. Matty (a past dog) was the same way. They weren't reading me because I didn't always know about the mess when I saw their reaction to it. Also, my reaction to messes is to put the dog outside (just in case they're not done) while I clean up. I don't coddle the dogs with reassurances or make a fuss. I don't think the expression is fear of punishment or a reaction to me...I think they really are just upset about having peed (or worse) in the house, possibly embarrassed (who knows?).

 

Or, perhaps the dog is simply uncomfortable (physically) because she peed herself and the look on her face is due to that discomfort.

[Oko]

Why is it not possible that a dog which has an accident in the house be embarrassed on its own account, rather that because it fears or reads a reaction from its owner?

 

Because dogs don't find urinating embarrassing (unlike human culture), and have no qualms about peeing in front of each other and us. I don't see how a dog, without human input, could find the act of peeing somewhere in a house embarrassing.

[terrecar]

Well of course the dog would have learned what is and isn't appropriate behavior from its human caretakers. I don't think anyone is positing behavior in a vacuum. However, I don't think a negative reaction--embarrassment, if you will--has to be limited to fear of reprisal. But sure, we might be anthropomorphizing, just a little, little .

[geonni banner]

Because dogs don't find urinating embarrassing (unlike human culture), and have no qualms about peeing in front of each other and us. I don't see how a dog, without human input, could find the act of peeing somewhere in a house embarrassing.

Dogs don't find urinating embarrassing? Peeing has a great deal more significance to dogs than just emptying their bladders, just as pooping can have a good deal more significance that unloading their intestines. Dogs, both male and female use one or both to mark territory. Some breeds and individuals do this more than others.

 

Humans find urinating and defecating to be intrinsically embarrassing. We are brought up with the notion that it's dirty, rude and generally distasteful. Dogs don't think that way, but they are usually very aware that inappropriate placement of urine or feces is, well, inappropriate. That's one of the reasons crates are so useful in potty training. Most dogs instinctively know that it's "bad" to "s**t where you eat." What we do with potty training is largely explain a larger version of, "don't foul the den site" into "don't foul any den site." This includes not only all of my house, but also the houses of my friends.

 

The fact that dogs can so readily understand this concept of not urinating or defecating indoors in locations other than their owner's homes (many make the extrapolation on their own - without ever committing an error) is proof that they understand instinctively the appropriateness of placement of pee and poop.

 

I don't think my dog is embarrassed by peeing or pooping per se, but she has an instinctive knowledge, enhanced by training, that where she pees or poops matters - whether anyone is watching is irrelevant. Dogs may not attach these stigma to the act of peeing or defecating per se, but to imagine that those acts have no significance at all to them is naive.

 

Being a habitually clean-in-the-house dog, my dog is uncomfortable with the idea of having done one or the other in an inappropriate location. It goes against not only her training, but also her natural instinctive behavior.

 

The fact that this tendency is hard-wired seems glaringly evident to me. Have you ever tried to housebreak a duck? A horse? Or even a wolf? My experience with a wolf was that she never once defecated indoors (without any attempts at housebreaking), but peeing was altogether a different matter. She didn't avoid pooping indoors because I trained her not to:she didn't because it was instinctive for her not to. Just as it was instinctive for her to urinate indoors as a communication tool. (Which went completely over the heads of the dogs and cats in the household: the former found it mildly interesting, the latter were appalled at her - what?... Lack of manners? Rude "language?")

[terrecar]

If I throw a frisbee and it happens to land near poop that I haven't yet scooped from my yard, Hannah will not touch that frisbee. I've never thrown it in a pile, but she will not touch it if it lands anywhere near a pile. She literally turns her nose up at it. This is not learned behavior to my knowledge. Hannah's housetraining consisted of me taking her out often and rewarding her for going outside. Because I was able to be home with her all day, there was never any cause to correct her. So, while I don't think she has any Freudian thing going on, I do think she would be uncomfortable with soiling the home if she were to be left until she could no longer hold it.

 

 

ETA: In the interest of full disclosure, she did poop on a piddle pad over newspaper exactly once when she was a young puppy. It was in the middle of the night. Also, I can leave her loose in the house when I leave with no problems.

[Oko]

I agree that a dog would feel discomfort at having to soil their regular sleeping/activity area because it is instinctual that dogs go away from their regular area to do so. I know my rabbits will always go inside their litter boxes when they are present and this is not just dog behavior.

 

My point is, I do not think a dog would feel embarrassed, as that to me implies a dog feeling it is socially wrong. In other words, I think we are pretty much in agreement.

[geonni banner]

I agree that a dog would feel discomfort at having to soil their regular sleeping/activity area because it is instinctual that dogs go away from their regular area to do so. I know my rabbits will always go inside their litter boxes when they are present and this is not just dog behavior.

 

My point is, I do not think a dog would feel embarrassed, as that to me implies a dog feeling it is socially wrong. In other words, I think we are pretty much in agreement.

Hmmmmm. Well, I've definitely seen embarrassment in dogs in other contexts, like watchdog-barking at me because she didn't recognize me at first. Her embarrassment showed as rushing over to me, wagging furiously, head lowered, eyes averted, and showing other submissive behaviors until she gets "forgiven." She was clearly mortified at having challenged me so rudely as I approached her.

 

Pooping and peeing both have strong social significance for dogs in certain contexts. I think that it's no more of a stretch to consider pooping or peeing in an inappropriate place a canine social gaffe than it would be for a low-ranking dog to eat before a high-ranking dog at a communal meal. It's true that dogs are not wolves, but they do retain at least vestigial behavior patterns of their ancestors.

 

The Oxford English Dictionary defines embarrassment as "a feeling of self-consciousness, shame or awkwardness"

 

If a dog has a social consciousness, and they clearly do, then why is it hard to believe that a dog would feel embarrassment for inadvertently, but undeniably committing an act that violates the rules of the social group of which it is a part?

[terrecar]

Hannah had an embarrassing moment yesterday morning after she started barking ferociously at a big red gasoline canister in my neighbor's yard. I gave her a 'REALLY Hannah?! A gas can?!!' look and I swear she turned all sheepish and started sniffing the air with a good deal more restraint.

[border_collie_crazy]

Well the odd time Rusty pees on my pillow when I leave the room I ONLY know when I walk in becuz he will run and hide under my bed. I am totally oblivious when I walk in because he almost never pulls such a stunt, I walk in, he runs and hides I immediately check my pillow and sure enough he marked it, normally when I walk in he just lays on my bed!

 

My BCs though read my body like nothing else, they will pull complicated manovers exactly when I need them too without a word from me.

[arf2184]

If I throw a frisbee and it happens to land near poop that I haven't yet scooped from my yard, Hannah will not touch that frisbee.

 

Meg is the same...lol. If it lands near poop I get the "I'm not touching that...you get it" look.