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Teen Angst or Something More Serious?


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I am feeling pretty worried and need some advice from folks with more BC experience.

 

I posted a few weeks ago about Tucker, my 6-month-old BC pup who had started acting aggressively towards his shadow. Despite distracting, upping his exercise, counter conditioning, etc., he is still very fixated on it. The fact that we have had seemingly endless sunny days is, I'm sure, not helping. Preventing him from chasing the shadow makes him extremely anxious (think barking and lunging at it), and he just seems more anxious in general when the shadow is around. I am spending a good part of my days trying to keep him from chasing or fixating on it. He will redirect to me if I am doing counter-conditioning, but if left to his own devices (like when I'm trying to do chores...) I have to keep a close eye on him to distract him with a tug (the tug usually trumps the shadow).

 

He is also exhibiting some other behavior that has me worried. He was barking and lunging at dogs on leash, so we've been doing a lot of counter conditioning, and desensitizing, which seems to be helping. Today at the vets, he was perfectly calm, walked by an overly-exhuberant lab, letting out only a small benign "woof." Later walked passed a yapping dog on the street without seeming to notice. But then at the pet shop, he started to approach a pup, about his size, and went completely ballistic. I had a Gentle Leader on him and was able to keep control over him, but felt terrible, because it was a timid pup. I know Tucker has a low threshold, and it had been a long day of being in the car and running errands, but the reaction still seemed pretty over the top.

 

He has also acted this way, going ballistic, over cats. And I don't think it was just wanting to get at them, because after going ballistic, he once tried to hide from it under my truck. He also acts this way if he's in his crate in the barn and I walk a sheep past the crate. This doesn't seem like "normal" behavior towards sheep to me, but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe I just got the sheep too close to him? When he saw himself in a mirror that my daughter had left on the porch, he again went ballistic, actually breaking it (so now my poor pup is going to have 7 years of bad luck....:P) And he's jumped up against windows (but fortunately not broken any), trying to get at his reflection. Today he did walk past his reflection in store windows without going ballistic, so there was some progress.

 

I guess what has me worried is that he is in general pretty calm, and a lot of this seems "out of the blue," but maybe I'm just missing cues here.

 

He has never shown any aggression towards people, and is fine with kids.

 

Much of the time, when we are out, he is very calm. He can lay down by me at an outside table for lunch, with lots of things going on about him, showing only what I consider "normal" interest in a nearby bird. If we're out on a hike, he is very focused on the shadow, but will re-direct if I keep calling him back to me. He starts getting more agitated as the day goes on, it seems. At night he easily erupts into a barking fit. Or he'll bark at his shadow in the house. If there's a full moon, he's very agitated when he has to go out and pee -- with the shadow.

 

It seems to me that he has a very low threshold and frustration tolerance, but it also seems like he just has the feeling that "something is out to get him." The aggressive behavior started about 4 1/2 months old. Before that he was an extremely mellow puppy, although looking back, I can see signs of anxiety. At one point, shortly after these behaviors started, he did get zapped by the electric fence :( And it was a bad zap. But I know that it was AFTER he started being aggressive towards his shadow etc. As far as I know, he hasn't had any other traumatic experiences.

 

I have been doing everything I and folks I have spoken with can think of to try to lower his anxiety level. We started Karen Overall's RP a few days ago, and we've been working on some of the CU exercises. I also tried Composure (don't see any difference yet), a calming cap (thought maybe he couldn't see the shadows, but he could) and just today are trying a Thundershirt. At this point I'm looking for a vet behaviorist (so please let me know if you know of any good ones -- I live in Upstate NY but will be traveling to CA next month).

 

Tucker is from working parents, and both of his parents are very successful trial dogs. I met mom, and saw her work, and she seemed like a delightful dog. The pups were well socialized by the breeder, and we continued to socialize. We also have another pup, a 9-month-old Mini Aussie, who Tucker is just fine with.

 

My question -- finally -- is whether this sounds like "normal" teen BC angst that I am overreacting to (other than the shadow chasing, I know that's not "normal"), or whether there might be something more serious brewing. I have had a BC before, but she was extremely "happy go lucky." High energy, yes, but no real quirks. So maybe Tucker's behavior is actually "normal" for a BC?

 

Thank you so much to anyone who can offer any thoughts.

 

I know I'm supposed to post pictures! I will, but I just got a Mac after using a PC, and I've been so busy dealing with my pups I haven't had time to figure out the photo thing yet.

 

Leslie

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I posted a few weeks ago about Tucker, my 6-month-old BC pup who had started acting aggressively towards his shadow. Despite distracting, upping his exercise, counter conditioning, etc., he is still very fixated on it. The fact that we have had seemingly endless sunny days is, I'm sure, not helping. Preventing him from chasing the shadow makes him extremely anxious (think barking and lunging at it), and he just seems more anxious in general when the shadow is around. I am spending a good part of my days trying to keep him from chasing or fixating on it. He will redirect to me if I am doing counter-conditioning, but if left to his own devices (like when I'm trying to do chores...) I have to keep a close eye on him to distract him with a tug (the tug usually trumps the shadow).

 

My pup used to chase shadows and she now does not. We used methods that I dislike and hope to never use again, but I believe it was necessary. One of her relatives is so obsessed with shadows that she will sit by a window all day waiting for a branch to cast a shadow on the floor; we did not want our pup to be like that. We used a choke collar and when she looked at a shadow, told her to leave it; if she did not, then we tightened then released the collar. That being said, after about one month of working on it about 2-3 hours a day, she is now back to normal and totally ignores shadows :)

 

I would suggest getting something like the gentle leader harness (attaches in front). You could use the method I stated above, but it will knock him off balance as opposed to choking him. I wish I had known about that harness when my pup was obsessed with shadows.

 

So maybe Tucker's behavior is actually "normal" for a BC?

No, I believe that behavior is abnormal for any breed of dog. Hopefully some more experienced members will have more advice for you.

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It's an obsessive behavior that if left unchecked is self rewarding and will become ingrained in the brain.

 

Faye started out obsessing about flies. Each time she did this I'd redirect her to something better. it didn't last long but might have is we weren't diligently trying to change the behavior.

 

As far as a choke collar goes. I don't think it's that big a deal that you used one. I was figuring you were going to say a shock collar. That might be a bigger deal. but a choke collar? Oh well, I'd find something else to beat yourself up over.

 

I used no collar and didn't have to touch Faye either, I just had to come up with something better than the fly to redirect her. Any toy will do for her. But mainly I used antlers. or kongs with PB in them. Something to take her mind off the flies and keep it off for a short time. In the end she knew I didn't like what she was doing so now I can say "knock it off" and she'll stop. That's our universal command that means I don't like what they are doing and they need to stop it this minute.

 

 

And for his lunging at other dogs or inappropriate things. If it were Faye she'd get a correction. Even if she was showing a bit of fear. (not over the too peeing fear but...) Faye knows what "stop that" or "knock it off" means and if she's being a bully or growling at other dogs I'd give her leash a tug if that didn't stop it she'd get a few harsh words. I know fear can't be corrected away but sometimes IMO young dogs need direction (even if that means a mild correction) as to what's acceptable and what's not acceptable.

If you are nervous about this happening and you're holding the leash you are actually sending the message right down the leash to do exactly what you don't want him to do. Be confident and picture in your mind it not happening, the dog will feel that confidence coming off you and probably check himself.

There is another fear period that I think is around 6-7 months give or take. IMO that just means I need to be on top my game and guide them through life a bit more careful.

Fearful or not no lunging at other dogs. Period. I hate it when fear or similar issues are used as excuses.

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We're having similar issues with Annie. She is 7 months old and her triggers are skateboards, other dogs and pretty much anything on wheels other then cars. Skateboards are all the time but bikes are mostly at night. We're clicker training her so we reward her for any behavior that is not barking and lunging. It seems to be working but very very slowly. We have good days and bad days but when she ignores the trigger she gets a TON of praise and reward. When she's in that state it's difficult to redirect her. Toys don't really motivate her. Food does most of the time as long as we can redirect her. It's quite frustrating but I think patience, consistency and diligence are the key to changing it.

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Let's not turn this into clicker vs. correction training.

IMO cars and kids have no time to let things happen slowly. Faye looked at a car one time. She started after it. I came at her like I was going to unleash hell on her. She freaked out took off for the backyard and we've never had another issue with cars again. I live on a busy road (busy enough that I worry bout no fencing for the dogs) so I have to teach them instantly roads, cars and anything with wheels are a huge no no.

Same with kids. My grandkids were here. No one was running or chasing Faye, the young one (turning 2 as I type) walked over to the door and Faye reached from under the table and put her mouth on my grandbaby's leg. Didn't break skin but I never gave her another chance to find out if she would. I read her the riot act put her on a short lead and made the kids run around like "kids" in front of Faye. If she even looked like she was thinking of nipping she got a huge correction. If she was just watching I let things go.

 

She now tolerates all kids, doesn't really like them all, but has never put her mouth on one again. She does like my grand kids cause they always spill food or hand Faye cookies so they are her favorite kids!

 

Again I have no time to let things happen slow when it could cost her life or cause my grand children damage.

 

Good luck with you pup.

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We're having similar issues with Annie. She is 7 months old and her triggers are skateboards, other dogs and pretty much anything on wheels other then cars. Skateboards are all the time but bikes are mostly at night. We're clicker training her so we reward her for any behavior that is not barking and lunging. It seems to be working but very very slowly. We have good days and bad days but when she ignores the trigger she gets a TON of praise and reward. When she's in that state it's difficult to redirect her. Toys don't really motivate her. Food does most of the time as long as we can redirect her. It's quite frustrating but I think patience, consistency and diligence are the key to changing it.

 

Important to remember that if the dog is allowed to get into the position where it feels the need to kick off it's likely to be a misjudgement on our part. But it happens and we should mark it down as learnt for next time.

 

But life isn't always that convenient or cooperative and sometimes there will be unavoidable setbacks, such as out of control off lead dogs bothering yours that is just minding her own business. As long as there are more steps forward than back it's OK - just takes longer that's all.

 

Our unsocialised reactive dog is rewarded for a proportionate response to whatever is going on, especially if he growls - something he never used to do before going OTT. Growling is showing me that he's learning self control and it rarely goes further nowadays. If it does it isn't usually him that starts it so he doesn't normally get punished for it - as if punishment short of a severe beating would register in his thick skull at all. I suppose we're lucky in that he isn't an obssessive chaser of moving things - it's just dogs in his personal space he has struggled to tolerate.

 

I want my dog to be able to communicate how he is feeling before he feels pressured into reacting which is why I'm very wary of suppressing behaviour like growling and I'd much rather he learned that there is no need to lunge and bark than let him get into the position of doing it and then punishing him.

 

My terrier does get told off for having a go at bigger dogs as many terriers do but it's water off a duck's back. It is fear based but the reasonable fear of a small but feisty breed when feeling threatened by a larger animal that could have them for breakfast. It isn't a personal fear like my hound mix has of GSDs since he was attacked by one. Punishing him for overreacting in fear would have been wholly unreasonable and would have made him much worse.

 

I give those examples just as an illustration that what is right for one dog may not be right for another and that fear comes in different forms.

 

Having said that, there are undoubtedly dogs that behave like that just because they can and I think it's fair enough to nip it in the bud with a judicious correction if you can, but it's not something I would recommend to someone whose dog I have never seen in case I am wrong in that case and do more harm.

 

When she was young my little dog once inflicted a nasty bite on my leg when it got in the way of her attack on one of my other dogs. She got the telling off of her life (verbal only) to leave her in no doubt that it was not acceptable behaviour and she has never shown any threat to a human being again, nor has she laid teeth on another dog. The voice of doom can be very effective simply because it is reserved for the worst offences.

 

As for ther OP's shadow chasing problem, I think bcnewe2 has it about right -

 

It's an obsessive behavior that if left unchecked is self rewarding and will become ingrained in the brain.

 

Faye started out obsessing about flies. Each time she did this I'd redirect her to something better. it didn't last long but might have is we weren't diligently trying to change the behavior.

 

----

 

I used no collar and didn't have to touch Faye either, I just had to come up with something better than the fly to redirect her. Any toy will do for her. But mainly I used antlers. or kongs with PB in them. Something to take her mind off the flies and keep it off for a short time. In the end she knew I didn't like what she was doing so now I can say "knock it off" and she'll stop. That's our universal command that means I don't like what they are doing and they need to stop it this minute.

 

Interruption before the dog gets into the full flow of the obssessive behaviour and redirection is the key.

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Let's not turn this into clicker vs. correction training.

IMO cars and kids have no time to let things happen slowly. Faye looked at a car one time. She started after it. I came at her like I was going to unleash hell on her. She freaked out took off for the backyard and we've never had another issue with cars again. I live on a busy road (busy enough that I worry bout no fencing for the dogs) so I have to teach them instantly roads, cars and anything with wheels are a huge no no.

Same with kids. My grandkids were here. No one was running or chasing Faye, the young one (turning 2 as I type) walked over to the door and Faye reached from under the table and put her mouth on my grandbaby's leg. Didn't break skin but I never gave her another chance to find out if she would. I read her the riot act put her on a short lead and made the kids run around like "kids" in front of Faye. If she even looked like she was thinking of nipping she got a huge correction. If she was just watching I let things go.

 

She now tolerates all kids, doesn't really like them all, but has never put her mouth on one again. She does like my grand kids cause they always spill food or hand Faye cookies so they are her favorite kids!

 

Again I have no time to let things happen slow when it could cost her life or cause my grand children damage.

 

Good luck with you pup.

 

It wasn't my intention to change it to clicker vs correction. I was just sharing what we've been going through and what we've been doing to try to fix it. She doesn't respond to corrections when she's in that state. I felt it was related to the topic and maybe I could get some insight into how to help her through the advice the OP was getting. Honestly, I'm not sure what else to do to speed up progress and we're not dealing with kids or cars. I want her to be able to express herself if she's afraid but it's seems that it's all or nothing with her, she's either completely calm and walking with a loose leash or she's freaking out at a trigger. I don't want to hi-jinx the thread I'm just reading and considering everyone's advice in relation to what we're going through.

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I didn't mean you Tammy I just meant lets just put ideas out there and not go with the clicker vs correction methods comparisons. Sorry I should of been more clear. What I do would not be advocated by a clicker crowd. The op can take the advise they feel comfortable with and move on. You too.

Nothing negative directed at clicker peeps. Just what works for me and what works for clickerers.

 

Hope you understand what I mean now.

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Do you see the difference between obsessiving about shadows or flies and chasing cars or biting kids? I can work with one and if I don't get the job done worse that will happen is a fly will be harmed or a shadow will be chased but the other issues, if I don't get the lesson across, someone might be hurt or my dog might die.

 

I choose appropriate corrections and directions for each issue we deal with.

 

As far as growling at other dogs. If a rude dog gets in any of my dogs face, I don't make much about a warning growl for some of my dogs I'll even go so far as letting them make a correction to the rude dog if the dog doesn't get the warning growl. But then there are dogs like Mick who goes to far or dogs like Faye who are to nervous yet to understand what is available for them to do. I would step in for either of those dogs. Just to keep peace or not put Faye over her threshold.

 

Ahhh but chase a car...you could wind up dead so I'm going "there" every time it even looks like it might happen. I don't care if I freak my dog out, be freaked out cause they'll freak me out if they end up dead.

 

I hope I make since of the difference between the two.

 

OMT...I know some people might say a growl is a dogs warning signal before it bites and I don't disagree. By not letting my dog growl at a human or kid I'm setting the rule about that behavior being unacceptable same as the bite. They have lots of other options. Come behind me, move off to somewhere else, run away from the "bad kid" or the kid that's making them nervous but no growling because if that's the warning that they might be going to bite next....nope not an option.

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Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and suggestions. SamS, boy it was really encouraging to hear that you got your dog over this! I was just talking to a (human) psychologist who said that sometimes, with a really self-reinforcing behavior, positive reinforcement isn't enough and you have to use aversives as well, so it's really clear to the person (well, dog in this case) what should and should not be done. I was really uncertain about using any type of aversive, since this might be an OCD, but since talking with him and reading your post, I've been very consistent with the stern "leave it" and have given him a few pulls with the Easywalk harness when he hasn't left the shadow alone. He does listen really well, so usually just the "leave it" is plenty. It's so hard to know what the "right" thing is to do here. I really don't want a dog like the one you described.

 

We definitely are not encouraging the behavior. Although, unfortunately, I didn't start trying to stop it until 7-10 days went by because I didn't know what was going on. The way our property is laid out, it looked like he was chasing something into the hedgerows. It wasn't until I realized he was running to the west hedgerow in the morning and the east hedgerow in the evening that the lightbulb finally went on.

 

How did you exercise your dog while you were doing the training? I was taking Tucker for hikes in the woods, but even though I kept redirecting by calling him back to me, he was still spending too much time fixating on and chasing the shadow. Leash walks don't really seem like enough exercise, and he's only six months, so I don't want to take him on any long runs, or run him with the bike. The vet did give the okay for short jogs, which is what we've been doing, before the sun comes up...OY.

 

One thing we have just started doing is throwing chicken on the shadow, when he seems anxious about it. The women I've gone to for herding, who has rescued many dogs with issues, suggested this because Tucker seems afraid of the shadow. It seemed sort of counterintuitive to me at first, but it actually seems to be making him a lot less anxious about it. It also breaks the fixation, or urge to chase, because instead of fixating, he's sniffing in the grass, trying to find the pieces of chicken I've dropped. I've been putting food on the window sills too, where he was barking and lunging at his reflection and telling him to "go say hi.' Last night I spent some time with the pieces of the mirror he broke, same thing, scattering the chicken and having him eat off of it. Amazingly, today he just glances at it and ignores it, after not being able to walk by without getting OTT.

 

Tiga's mom -- Annie's issues really sound similar. Yes, loose-leash, perfectly calm, or else OTT. One of the things I'm thinking about Tucker is that he has a very low threshold and a very low frustration tolerance. I've been trying to think of ways to help him improve his impulse control. One of the things I've been doing the last few days is Karen Overall's relaxation protocol. We're only on day three, but I really think it's going to be helpful as far as him learning to have more self control. You can find it on the internet. Basically, the dog gradually learns to be more relaxed in different situations. Maybe you could eventually work up to doing the protocol and having a skateboard go by. When I started the protocol, he would go OTT when I started jogging (the protocol has you doing different things while the dog sits or downs.) Now, only five days later, he can maintain the down just fine while I'm doing the jogging. We've also been doing a lot of tug, getting him super excited, and then having him drop the tug and down.

 

Also, have you heard of BAT training by Grisha Stewart? I don't know if that might work, if you could do some sort of set-up with a skateboarder (or if there was a skatepark near you.) She has some videos on the internet, as well as a book. Basically, the concept is that you walk the dog towards the trigger and as soon as the dog gives any type of cut-off signal, like looking towards you, or even sniffing, you walk the dog away from the trigger as a "functional reward." In the process of moving towards and away from the trigger, the dog learns new behavior that works for keeping him away from the trigger. I've been doing this with our other dog, and it seems to work really well, and faster I think than just the desensitizing/counter conditioning. The problem with Tucker is that a lot of the time he doesn't react to other dogs. I think you said Annie nearly always reacts to skateboards, so this might be good for that.

 

When I was a teenager, I had an Irish Setter that went nuts over skateboards. Anything with small wheels. I swear, it was five years after she died before I could hear an approaching skateboard and not tense up my left arm!

 

Leslie

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We're clicker training her so we reward her for any behavior that is not barking and lunging. It seems to be working but very very slowly. We have good days and bad days but when she ignores the trigger she gets a TON of praise and reward. When she's in that state it's difficult to redirect her. Toys don't really motivate her. Food does most of the time as long as we can redirect her. It's quite frustrating but I think patience, consistency and diligence are the key to changing it.

 

 

Darn this is going to sound like I'm bashing clickerers. But I'm not, I'm just asking for clairification...

 

So you praise what you like, and ignore what you don't like. How does she know what you don't like? How does she know to stop a self rewarding behavior if she doesn't know it's not ok? I can seee that she knows what gets rewarded but if the non wanted behavior is rewarding in it's self who needs a reward from you?

 

 

IMO the reason she is slow and hard to redirect is your not sending a clear message as to what she's doing wrong and you're not matching her with the same energy to redirect her. Notice I didn't say correct I just said matching her energy. You could do that positivly if you can figure out what's better that what she's doing.

 

One of my favorite mentors in the stock dog world says, make the wrong uncomfortable and the right comfortable and the dog will take the path that feels the best.

 

I don't tell my dogs how to work sheep, I tell them what I don't like and give them the freedom to use their brains to figure out the rest. Or at least that's how I try to do it!

Same with home rules, I don't tell my dogs what to do instead of chasing cars or biting my kids I just tell them those things are not acceptable. What they do besides that is up to them.

 

Works for us

And I swear I'm trying to understand clickerers not bash them. Forgive me if you feel I insulted your ways or means.

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We did one long walk in the middle of the day in which we focused on her shadow chasing. For about a month, my pups exercise schedule consisted of an early morning walk, a training walk, a late night walk (away from street lights), and mental exercise and games indoors. Let me tell you, it was a very long month. I'm really relieved she is over shadow chasing now and everything can get back to normal.

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Darn this is going to sound like I'm bashing clickerers. But I'm not, I'm just asking for clairification...

 

So you praise what you like, and ignore what you don't like. How does she know what you don't like? How does she know to stop a self rewarding behavior if she doesn't know it's not ok? I can seee that she knows what gets rewarded but if the non wanted behavior is rewarding in it's self who needs a reward from you?

 

 

IMO the reason she is slow and hard to redirect is your not sending a clear message as to what she's doing wrong and you're not matching her with the same energy to redirect her. Notice I didn't say correct I just said matching her energy. You could do that positivly if you can figure out what's better that what she's doing.

 

 

Fair enough questions. Not directed at me but I will attempt to answer in general, probably badly.

 

Training should be a balance whatever method you use and adjusted accordingly depending on the individual dog, human and situation.

 

Clicker training and other similar positive training methods require a mindset that doesn't have correcting what the trainer doesn't want to the fore. Glass half full rather than half empty if you you like.

 

Training is getting what you want out of the dog, not focussing on the "wrong" things. It's a question of emphasis - being a positive trainer should really mean that correction is normally the last thing you try rather than one of the first.

 

But most of us aren't stupid and we will correct if we deem it necessary.

 

I doubt that we're that different but the message I get from your posts is that correction figures more prominently in what you do than in what I do, that's all.

 

However, I do see some earnest and over-conscientious clicker/positive trainers focussing so much on the method that they fail to give clear enough messages to the dog and the rewards they give are simply not enough to override what the dog finds self rewarding. Sometimes a dog does need more, but correction is not something I would recommend to a stranger I have never seen because of the potential fallout if I am wrong. It doesn't mean that I think it is never justified, although I have to admit that most people I know who do use corrections go too far and persist beyond the point where it has already conveyed the message. These are experienced trainers too.

 

There's nothing wrong with "I mean it!" but there is always the danger of escalation if initial correction doesn't work.

 

And there is a clear distinction in my mind between training a dog to be an acceptable member of society (necessary) and training a dog to do the multitude of non essential activities that people enjoy. Where I might sometimes come to the conclusion that a correction is appropriate in real life, I don't think it's fair to do the same because a dog performs badly in one of my hobbies such as agility or obedience.

 

I don't subscribe to hard and fast rules in anything. Positive training provides me with guidelines that I am comfortable with but I still have an independent mind.

 

When answering behavioural questions on line I believe that the approach should be safety first. Recommending a positive solution is unlikely to do much harm even if applied ineffectively. Recommending correction or confrontation might make matters worse so I avoid it even if deep down I think it might be a reasonable option. We only have what people tell us to go on and it could be giving a misleading impression.

 

OMT...I know some people might say a growl is a dogs warning signal before it bites and I don't disagree. By not letting my dog growl at a human or kid I'm setting the rule about that behavior being unacceptable same as the bite. They have lots of other options. Come behind me, move off to somewhere else, run away from the "bad kid" or the kid that's making them nervous but no growling because if that's the warning that they might be going to bite next....nope not an option.

 

Growling is a sign that a dog doesn't want to bite but could be pushed into it if it is ignored. Worse if the dog is feeling the same but doesn't growl because it has been punished for it. At the sign of a growl give the dog the avoidance options you mention and next time it may well not feel the need to do it.

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Kristen I didn't think you were bashing clicker people at all. A big part of the reason we started clicker training is that was the only puppy class that was offered here over the summer. We're liking it a lot but I'm not afraid of corrections either. It just isn't working with the skateboards and other dogs. I absolutely see the difference between flies and cars/kids. Mum summed it up pretty well and that is the basic idea behind clicker training is to reward the behavior you like and ignore what you don't like. It's working well for most things but you do need to balance that with corrections I think for more extreme behavior. I think it's obvious that we need to try something different for the skateboards and other dogs. Like I said, we are seeing progress but it's very slow and it's very frustrating.

 

Leslie, we do have a friend with a skateboard and we do get him to help us as much as he can. He's brought his board to our house and we've let her smell it when it's not in motion. We've also taken it outside, again not in motion. I guess the next step is to get him using it far away and slowly build up getting closer. I will look into the methods that you mentioned.

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"Clicker training and other similar positive training methods require a mindset that doesn't have correcting what the trainer doesn't want to the fore. Glass half full rather than half empty if you you like.

 

Training is getting what you want out of the dog, not focussing on the "wrong" things. It's a question of emphasis - being a positive trainer should really mean that correction is normally the last thing you try rather than one of the first."

 

OK, sorry, I have to comment on this. I used what many would refer to as "correction-based" training for years. I still do much of the time, because it works for me and I'm good at it. But just because I employ verbal corrections, choke-chains and leash pops doesn't mean corrections are "at the fore." Much more time is spent demonstrating what I want in a clear and upbeat manner, which will get me a high percentage of correct responses from the the dog, and praising lavishly for good thinking and the performance of the desired response by the dog. "Negative input" is not used until it is clear the dog understands what is wanted of it, and the degree of correction is tailored to not only the egregiousness of the refusal but to the sensitivity of the individual dog.

 

Ok, that's all. :)

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. I think it's obvious that we need to try something different for the skateboards ....

 

Leslie, we do have a friend with a skateboard and we do get him to help us as much as he can. He's brought his board to our house and we've let her smell it when it's not in motion. We've also taken it outside, again not in motion. I guess the next step is to get him using it far away and slowly build up getting closer. I will look into the methods that you mentioned.

 

As I was reading this thread, a thought popped into my head regarding Annie's reactivity to the skateboard -- similar to what the OP has done with throwing chicken at the shadows. Why not borrow a skateboard and put chicken on it? Hopefully Annie will become comfortable with eating chicken off the skateboard pretty fast - since it is not moving, she may not even 'know' that it is a skateboard. Once she has passed the first hurdle, then I would try moving the skateboard - just an inch or so - while she is eating the chicken off the skateboard. Build up from there -very slowly at first - until she will eat the chicken off a skateboard while you push it around. At that point, try letting someone 'ride' it (slowly) while they feed her chicken.

 

Just my 2 cents. Not sure if it will work, but I had forgotten about the strategy of 'baiting' the frightening object until it is no longer frightening.

 

Jovi

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The chicken does seem to have taken "the edge" off the shadow. Tonight for our " before bed pee" I was actually able to tell him to just "leave it" and he did. Before, he was so OTT about the shadow at night, there was no reaching the brain for training.

 

I may be imagining this, but yesterday I swear he did an outrun and a walk up on the shadow. This has put me more in the mindset of using "leave it! " and some mild redirection with a Gentle Leader, thinking it's a "normal" BC obsession and not an anxiety-produced OCD.

 

Today we finally had a break from the shadow because it rained all day. :)

 

Leslie

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So glad you're making progress Leslie! It give me hope.

 

The few times that our friend has been over with the skateboard without it moving she hasn't really reacted too much. I clicked/treated her for all calm behavior and for sniffing it without reacting. She even put her paws on it without a reaction. She was even ok when I moved it slightly with my foot. I do like the idea of the chicken though. I'll get him to come over again on my day off and see what works.

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I was really uncertain about using any type of aversive, since this might be an OCD, but since talking with him and reading your post, I've been very consistent with the stern "leave it" and have given him a few pulls with the Easywalk harness when he hasn't left the shadow alone. He does listen really well, so usually just the "leave it" is plenty.

 

I would class that as an interruptor rather than aversive. An action is only aversive if the dog considers it to be and what an individual dog finds aversive in one situation it may not in another. Your dog will tell you whether you are using an aversive or not.

 

"Leave it" is just a cue like any other when the dog knows what it means.

 

You describe a dog fixated on something and you are trying to break the concentration so you can communicate with him - reminding him of your presence rather than punishing him for "bad" behaviour.

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We had a good walk this morning. A skateboard passed us on the other side of the road and Annie did pull a little but she didn't bark at all and I was able to redirect her attention to me and I clicked and treated her a lot! It's nice to see some progress. I know we have a long, long way to go but I hope we're starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm concerned we may end up having setbacks next week though. For the first 3 months we had her, neither of us were really working. I went back to work a couple of weeks ago and we just found out yesterday that my other half goes back to work on Tuesday. Annie hasn't been crated too much lately, mostly at night and when there's no one here to watch her. That's all going to change next week. She'll be crated all day. She'll get a good walk in the morning, out at lunch to potty and then evening exercise/training. We don't really have a yard to let her run in as it's not completely fenced in and her recall is not 100% yet. Right now she gets lots of walks/training but that will decrease next week. I guess we'll see what happens but I hope all of our work doesn't get forgotten.

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mum24dog -- yes, that makes sense to me. Thank you for the clarification!

 

Tammy -- that' so great that you are seeing progress. It's amazing how much a little bit of progress lifts my spirit! It's really nice to hear about your work with Annie too. Her progress sounding similar to Tuckers gives me hope as well.

 

I had to go back to work the end of August after being home for the summer. I'm only gone two days, and my daughter gets home around 2:30, but it's still more crate time than Tucker was used to. One thing I've been doing is to put a big raw knuckle bone in there with him. He gets that and a frozen Kong filled with peanut butter. I don't know if you do raw bones or not, but I figure that has got to keep him busy for a good long while.

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Well as I'm sure you know some days are better then others so it's definitely very exciting to see progress. I also think we've found a ball field that's fenced in that we can take her to run. I'm going to check that out this afternoon if it's not raining.

 

We haven't done raw bones with her yet. We used to give them to Tiga but he started reacting to them so it's been a while. I might try them again. I had been giving him lamb bones from the butcher at the market. I don't know if I'd be comfortable leaving her alone with a raw bone. Tiga is not much of a chewer and so he has to be watched very carefully as he's been known to swallow and choke on knuckle bones. We do freeze kongs (with plain yogurt) and they both love those. It looks like she's going to be home for 4-5 days a week. Sometimes less as I can work anywhere from 0-70 hour a week. My other half will have a normal 40 hour week schedule.

 

Keep me updated on Tuckers progress. I'll continue to do so with Annie as well. It's nice that there are so many on the board with puppies right now. It really helps. :)

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