Juno's found her calling!

[MommaLove]

We bought Juno intending for her to be a working dog, and agility hasn't been anywhere on our radar. However, this evening Juno had a chance to try some agility equipment at our training centre. She watched the "seasoned" dog who was demonstrating, and when it was Juno's turn to try, she just went ahead and did everything as if she had done it one hundred times before! I was amazed!

 

We came to the tunnel, and Juno shot through. We came to the hoop, and wooosh went Juno. She hopped over the poles no problem. Up and over the A-frame as if it was nothing. Etc. We had a TON of fun!

 

So, now we're signed up for a beginner's agility class (how much more money am I going to end up spending on classes for this dog!? ) that will start two weeks from now. I haven't told my husband yet.....

 

As an aside - I bought Juno a frisbee the other day from a clearance bin. HOLY SMOKES! I've never seen her leap so high! The frisbee is the new favourite toy

[Alchemist]

We bought Juno intending for her to be a working dog, and agility hasn't been anywhere on our radar. However, this evening Juno had a chance to try some agility equipment at our training centre. She watched the "seasoned" dog who was demonstrating, and when it was Juno's turn to try, she just went ahead and did everything as if she had done it one hundred times before! I was amazed!

 

We came to the tunnel, and Juno shot through. We came to the hoop, and wooosh went Juno. She hopped over the poles no problem. Up and over the A-frame as if it was nothing. Etc. We had a TON of fun!

 

So, now we're signed up for a beginner's agility class (how much more money am I going to end up spending on classes for this dog!? ) that will start two weeks from now. I haven't told my husband yet.....

 

As an aside - I bought Juno a frisbee the other day from a clearance bin. HOLY SMOKES! I've never seen her leap so high! The frisbee is the new favourite toy

 

Look, I don't want to be a wet blanket. I'm sure you want what's best for your pup. And you could write an encyclopedia about what I *don't* know about agility. And I'm also certain that some types of agility exercises are easier on young joints than others.

 

But Juno's like, what, 5.5 months old? SHOULD you be encouraging her to "leap so high"? I once met a Border collie surrendered to its vet because it had fallen (from the dogwalk? A-frame???) and broken its leg at ~ 6 months of age. Original owner wanted it to be put down because they'd heard it would never be sound again. The vet, instead, gave it to the subsequent owner I'd met, who had put it through many months of rehab.

 

I'm hoping others with more experience will weigh in here on the wisdom of a puppy testing out agility equipment and jumping for frisbees (as distinct from what I understand are "foundation" exercises, where the dog learns to interact with its handler while doing exercises that don't stress young joints). I'd just hate to see everyone with a Border collie puppy think, oh, yes, let me see what MY puppy can do!!!

[SamS]

It's great that she had so much fun, but I agree with Alchemist. It is not recommended to encourage jumping until their bones have solidified (about a year I think). Frisbee should be thrown low to the ground until then. I know an adult dog who blew out his knee after jumping for a Frisbee, so I don't think it is a good idea to encourage a pup to jump.

[Kelleybean]

Adding to the above posts, she shouldn't be jumping over obstacles yet either. I started Asa at 1 yr old. Before agility we took a sports prep class, maybe you should look into something like this and hold off on the agility lessons for a few months and give her growth plates time to close. Risking an injury really isn't worth it!

[Cynthia P]

Shoulder injuries are common in frisbee. DO NOT throw it so she has to leap up. It is one thing if they do it themselves after a butterfly but to encourage it at such a young age is a bad idea. If she gets injured, crate rest for a young border collie is WAY less fun

[MommaLove]

Thank you all for your advice. I originally had no intention of doing agility with Juno and really don't know anything about it - except that our trainer enthusiastically encouraged us to take the class after seeing Juno on the equipment. I wasn't aware that it could be damaging at this age, and of course I don't want anything to happen to Juno. We're in no rush and I only thought it would be fun (seeing as Juno loved it so much) - so I have no problem waiting until she is older. (Also - the poles she was jumping over were at the lowest level and it was really more of a hop.)

 

As for the frisbee, I didn't know Juno would leap into the air like that. I was thinking of it as another way to play fetch, and was totally surprised when she jumped up for the frisbee (she doesn't do that with the ball). I'll make sure to only throw it low if we do continue to play with it, and I'll stick to her beloved orange ball for the most part.

 

And really, thanks again for the info. I've never done dog sports and was amazed by how enthusiastic and happy Juno was to do the agility. It didn't occur to me that it could be damaging - though I know she's too young for stock work for the same reason, so I should have clued in. Our days revolve around Juno. The last thing I want is an injury!

[MommaLove]

To add - what I was really most impressed with when we tried the agility equipment was this - Juno watched another dog, and then figured out what to do. That is totally new to me! Certainly my coonhound and beagle have never done anything like that.

 

So now I'm thinking about age-appropriate activities for Juno that won't pose a big risk of injury, but will keep her satisfied in terms of exercise/activity and brain stimulation. She wants things to do all day, and our family is more than happy to keep her going - but us humans get bored of fetch and water play again and again! Any suggestions?

 

Edit to add: OMG I just googled "dog frisbee" to read more. I had NO IDEA that frisbee could be so intense! Frisbee clubs! Competitions! Flips in the air! Woah. Impressive, but certainly not for us. We were just looking for a new toy to play with.

[Cynthia P]

If your instructor is fine teaching puppies agility, no problem, but no jumps or jumping off high things; you can teach contact obstacles, do the wiggly boards, and learn lots...

 

Stock dog training at this age is a lot safer, although generally their little minds are not ready for the training.

 

Enjoy your little girl, just heed the warnings; They seem to be much more mature than their bones are!

 

Cynthia

[frisbeegirl]

I started Keeva on frisbee as a pup and realized like you how much she loved it and was good at it. I have a friend who runs a frisbee competition every year so you could say I have a mentor.

 

Yes, the competition is very intense and the dog must be 18 months or older to compete.

 

We still train but as I have learned here only maybe 10 minutes at a time. (keeps the intensity down.)

 

A young dog when driven will do anything even if its young bones are unable too handle it.

 

Keeva's passion is now sheep training and soon I will own a small flock.

 

To her now her frisbee is a treat and at 1 year she is pulling all 4 feet off the ground.

 

Juno is a smarty to watch and do.

[Root Beer]

Another thing you will want to be aware of is impulse control. While it is fun to have a dog running through things and hopping over things, it is important, I believe, right from the start, to provide a structure where the dog understands that there are times to flat out "go go go" and times to be calm and collected on the sidelines.

 

I'm not saying that I think Juno has an impulse control problem or anything, just that it is something to be aware of.

 

Years ago I dove into Agility with Speedy and I was very eager for him to "go go go" and I didn't know that he also needed to have a functioning off switch. I ended up creating issues that would have taken quite a lot of work to overcome if he and I had continued in Agility if I had known what I was doing, which I did not at that time.

 

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, either, but I would make sure that she can relax on the sidelines when it is not her turn. Sometimes dogs who get very into watching the other dogs on course can end up becoming over the top at the sight of other dogs running. There is help for this, but it is much easier to teach a dog to be relaxed in those situations sooner rather than later.

 

Just something to keep in mind as you get into classes.

[Alchemist]

 

So now I'm thinking about age-appropriate activities for Juno that won't pose a big risk of injury, but will keep her satisfied in terms of exercise/activity and brain stimulation. She wants things to do all day, and our family is more than happy to keep her going - but us humans get bored of fetch and water play again and again! Any suggestions?

 

 

and

 

Our days revolve around Juno.

 

 

I'm probably reading too much into this. Gotta agree with Kristine (Root Beer) here; you also need to instill the ability to "chill" in Juno.

 

There really is a big danger in doing "too much" with young Border collies. They DON'T need tons of exercise. They SHOULDN'T need nonstop attention. If you give them too much exercise, you're at risk of damaging their joints, as you now know. You're also at risk of creating a dog that DEMANDS this much exercise (or will go crazy if she doesn't receive it). What will happen if she's injured and you have to put her on crate rest?

 

Likewise, if you give a puppy nonstop attention, you're at risk of creating a selfish monster that will demand nonstop attention from you. (Believe me. I've met just such a dog. The owners felt they needed to "entertain" their puppy every moment it was awake. Now they've hired an outside trainer, who has spent close to a year working with the mess they created).

 

I think it's far better to give a pup a chance to play; to teach it that there are times when it's supposed to go and "chill" on its own; also to make time for it each day to engage in some training so that it learns there are rules and expectations for its behavior. (And then, as with children, to be consistent). You're not the pup's friend, you're the head of the household, and you set the rules. If you want to engage its brain, go ahead and work on simple obedience training. Once your pup has mastered basic commands, like sit, lie down, and a recall, and walking nicely on a leash, add distance and distraction. Work on impulse control - will Juno keep that "lie down" if a ball goes bouncing past her? Can you train her to "go to her bed" - and then sit there quietly while you're having dinner? Limit such training to 5-10 minutes at a time; she's still a baby, no matter how quickly she may have seemed to have grown, and she needs time to be a puppy still. This sort of training will keep her mind engaged while helping her develop into a well-adjusted member of the household.

[MommaLove]

and

 

I'm probably reading too much into this. Gotta agree with Kristine (Root Beer) here; you also need to instill the ability to "chill" in Juno.

 

Yes, you are reading too much into this. Juno does just "chill" plenty. When our children are napping, Juno is laying beside the bed, napping also. When I am nursing the baby, Juno is laying calmly at my feet. When I'm moving the chickens and don't want Juno's help, she is in a down-stay, calmly waiting for me to finish the job. When we are eating dinner, Juno is relaxing in her crate. When the kids are bathing, Juno is relaxing in her crate. She does not get non-stop attention - she MUST relax and be good when the children are learning, when the baby is being changed, when I'm making meals, when I'm tending the farm, when I'm working with the other dogs, etc. Juno knows when it's time to stop.

 

When I say our days revolve around Juno, I mean this: We are a homeschooling family, and we go out on a daily basis. We almost always choose our outings so that Juno can come along. We go to the dog-friendly parks, the conservation areas, the beaches and splash pads so that Juno doesn't have to spend her days crated. We bring her along so that she can romp & play, have fun with the kids, and be social. She spends a good part of her day "just having fun", playing and being a happy-go-lucky pup. When we are home, the kids enjoy playing fetch with her, and almost daily get into some water play with Juno, which everyone loves (Juno the most!). And, Juno lets us know when she's had enough. She is free to take a rest whenever she wants.

 

Also, Juno does have daily training. She is enrolled in obedience classes (this is where we tried the agility equipment). We practice her obedience in short spurts throughout the day. Juno is extremely well-behaved and willing to work for everything (sit & wait for meals, sit & wait for release before going through the door, etc.). When I say "settle", she immediately goes to her bed and lays down. We use clicker training with her and have built a lot of trust and confidence.

 

And, YES, Juno will keep that "down" if a ball flies past her. She knows she only goes running for the ball if I say "GO!" as I'm throwing - otherwise, she waits until I say, "OK, get the ball!", and watches me calmly until I give her the ok.

 

All that being said, Juno thrives when she is learning new things. Her eyes light up, she focuses, and this is when she is happiest. This also works to calm her, as she will happily lay quietly in her crate for an extended period if need be, after she has had a good brain workout.

 

We're not a family that crates our dogs all day while we're off at work, and our dogs aren't limited to a morning & evening walk. There are plenty of dogs who are fine with that kind of life, and that's great, but that's not what happens with our family. I'm sorry if you find our enthusiasm for our dog to be a bit too much, but when the kids get bored of fetch and winter sets in (making playgrounds and splash pads off-limits), it would be nice to have some fun things to do.

[Root Beer]

Yes, you are reading too much into this. Juno does just "chill" plenty. When our children are napping, Juno is laying beside the bed, napping also. When I am nursing the baby, Juno is laying calmly at my feet. When I'm moving the chickens and don't want Juno's help, she is in a down-stay, calmly waiting for me to finish the job. When we are eating dinner, Juno is relaxing in her crate. When the kids are bathing, Juno is relaxing in her crate. She does not get non-stop attention - she MUST relax and be good when the children are learning, when the baby is being changed, when I'm making meals, when I'm tending the farm, when I'm working with the other dogs, etc. Juno knows when it's time to stop.

 

 

There is a big difference between all that you describe and watching other dogs run Agility, particularly when a dog is really "turned on" by Agility.

 

It may not ever be an issue for you, and if it isn't, that's great.

 

But it could be. It's just a possibility to be aware of.

[gcv-border]

It sounds like Juno is growing into a very nice, well-behaved pup. Having said that, now that you have seen her enthusiasm on agility equipment, it will be great when you can follow through with it. You CAN start "agility" now from the standpoint of teaching her handling moves on the flat.

 

IMHO, agility is only 10-15% obstacle performance (jumping, going over the A-frame, teeter, and dogwalk, weaves, etc.), but it 85-90% handling. To the beginner, watching the dog zip through the obstacles is very impressive, but as you get into understanding how to run courses, you begin to realize the more impressive feat is to guide (handle) your dog in an efficient manner from one obstacle to the next.

 

Unfortunately, most beginner agility classes focus on teaching the dogs how to go over obstacles first. Then, if you advance to the next levels of agility classes, you begin to learn how to handle. Personally, I think it should be reversed, but the problem is that most people would probably drop out of agility lessons if that was true.

 

The good news is that you can begin to teach agility handling to youngish pups as long as you work on the flat. (and, in fact, that is what the experienced handlers do when they are bringing along their young dogs.) There are books and DVDs available on foundation handling, flatwork, etc. Clean Run offers a comprehensive selection of both.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

I'm sorry if you find our enthusiasm for our dog to be a bit too much, but when the kids get bored of fetch and winter sets in (making playgrounds and splash pads off-limits), it would be nice to have some fun things to do.

I don't think anyone who has posted to this thread has implied that your enthusiasm for your dog is too much. All they have done is give you some cautionary advice based on what you wrote originally. I think it's a safe bet that every single member of this forum is super enthusiastic about their dogs. What they try to do is offer advice based on their own experiences and what other posters write. No one is a mind reader. I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again. Take the advice you like, ignore the rest. The whole world could do with a little less snark.

 

J.

[MommaLove]

I don't think anyone who has posted to this thread has implied that your enthusiasm for your dog is too much. All they have done is give you some cautionary advice based on what you wrote originally. I think it's a safe bet that every single member of this forum is super enthusiastic about their dogs. What they try to do is offer advice based on their own experiences and what other posters write. No one is a mind reader. I know it's been said before, but I'll say it again. Take the advice you like, ignore the rest. The whole world could do with a little less snark.

 

J.

 

The bit you quoted was in direct response to Alchemist's last post, not to any others. I value most of the advice I get on these boards, which is why I keep posting. There are many very knowledgeable folks in these parts and being a BC newbie myself, I appreciate the input. Plus, it's nice to share my amazement at Juno's smarts & talents with folks who actually understand!

[MommaLove]

It sounds like Juno is growing into a very nice, well-behaved pup. Having said that, now that you have seen her enthusiasm on agility equipment, it will be great when you can follow through with it. You CAN start "agility" now from the standpoint of teaching her handling moves on the flat.

 

IMHO, agility is only 10-15% obstacle performance (jumping, going over the A-frame, teeter, and dogwalk, weaves, etc.), but it 85-90% handling. To the beginner, watching the dog zip through the obstacles is very impressive, but as you get into understanding how to run courses, you begin to realize the more impressive feat is to guide (handle) your dog in an efficient manner from one obstacle to the next.

 

Thanks, Jovi. I'll ask the training centre how their beginner class is run to get a better idea, and decide from there whether to go ahead with it. Now I'm paranoid about Juno injuring herself!

[SamS]

Don't be paranoid, just be careful

[arf2184]

Our first foundation agility class was all flat-work. It was great...my then 10-year-old mutt who has hip problems also got to take the class even though I have no intention of ever doing agility with him. He had fun, got out of the house and learned some new things.

 

If the first agility class with this trainer is not all (or mostly) flat-work, I'd look for a different agility trainer in your area. Any good agility trainer would not encourage you enter a pup that young in a class involving a lot of jumps and climbing. JMHO

[frisbeegirl]

As Juno gets older you will learn her limits. ( Don't baby her, don't be afraid of injuries.)

 

Keeva at 1 year lets me know when she needs to rest. I can push her a little at this age. (less than a year I would have to end any training sessions, she was relentless.)

 

You want a smart, controlled dog and it sounds like she is heading in the right direction.

[juliepoudrier]

As Juno gets older you will learn her limits. ( Don't baby her, don't be afraid of injuries.)

I STRONGLY disagree with this. Most border collies will happily damage themselves in the pursuit of their vocation and it's up to the human to SET the limits. Even when injury isn't obvious, too much wear and tear put on young, incompletely formed joints will at best end up in arthritis later (and then you have an older, painful dog who requires special care and pain management). Athletic animals will eventually end up with arthritis in general, but the care you take when they are young can make all the difference between a dog that's injury prone throughout its life or that develops painful arthritis early on and one that keeps going relatively injury free well into later life. Patience and care at the start will go a long way toward keeping a dog sound for most or all of its working life.

 

No, you don't have to wrap her in bubble wrap and worry yourself to death over every bad step, but you can take a smart approach that reduces the likelihood of little repetitive inujuries that will cause problems later on, and certainly goes a long way toward avoiding the big, expensive, career-threatening injuries. Some you can't predict (like the time on of my dogs planted a hind leg, then made a quick spin to get a ball, and snapped her leg), but others, like encouraging a lot of jumping in a dog that's less than a year old are entirely within the person's control.

 

It's heartbreaking to watch arthritic dogs unable to get up without help, needing a ramp to go up and down stairs, unable to bend enough to turn around in a crate, and so on. Some of that can certainly be prevented or delayed if people take a sensible approach to what they allow their young dogs to do.

 

J.

[frisbeegirl]

Julie,

 

I couldn't agree more. Any pup including a, and especially border collie's need to be watched.

 

However, I think MommaLove has Juno's best interests to heart. She is a mother and owns other dogs.

 

My meaning(as you are not able to read my mind) was do not become parinoid as she mentioned in her previous post.

 

Common sense with young pups not worry is needed here.

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

I didn't imply that Juno's mom doesn't have Juno's best interests at heart; I think that's a given for most anyone who posts here. She noted that she was unaware of the dangers of, say, letting a youngster run agility equipment. You then stated that the dog will limit itself and that your dog lets you know when she needs to rest. My point was that you shouldn't be pushing to the point where the dog has to let you know it needs a break. By that point, you've likely already pushed too far. Border collies do NOT generally limit themselves, and for most people, counting on the dog limiting itself could lead to some expensive vet bills. YMMV.

 

J.

[TrulyReady]

I think to say don't jump a puppy until a year old is a little over-board. There are plenty of safe jump excercises you can do with a puppy, I highly reccomend Susan Salo's puppy jumping DVD. Any overly repetative motions isn't recommended for a puppy but using 4"-8" jump bumps once a week in addition to flat work should not be harmful (in very short sessions). It's also nice to work start line stays and impulse control in front of a 4" or 8" bar at that age. Wobble boards are also useful at Juno's age, getting used to walking on a plank on the ground, learning a 2 on 2 off position, there are so many things that can keep you guys busy until she is old enough to be on non-puppy equipment, if you are interested go for it! I agree though that if your instuctor is wanting to push her onto non-flat or near flat equipment to fast to soon you maybe better off to find a different instuctor or just wait until Juno is a little older. Agility is fun for young dogs and if you can keep it structured and not to strenuous then anything mentally stimulating and intruducing her to new things will be benifical to her overall development.

[olivehill]

I've not been able to check in here in a while; it's so nice to read a Juno update. If I remember correctly she's about the same age as our pup. It's an incredible thing to watch them turn on -- ours has recently begun really turning on to the stock -- but balancing that encouragement of their interests with safety is definitely important. I appreciate all the seasoned handlers who are chiming in with advice. I'm no expert on BCs, but I would never expect Tripp to tell us what's too much at this age. As his interest peaks and his instincts kick in he's so darned excited he just wants to GO!