mayhem Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 First off I highly apologize for the length of the post. I want to lay all my cards on the table and be brutally honest about myself and my situation. Is a border collie an appropriate choice for my lifestyle? Is a rescue even possible for me? I know Border Collies are not for everyone. I am looking for a second dog. I currently own a Belgian Sheepdog we adopted from a local shelter as a puppy. I am heavily involved in ferret rescue and I am the local shelter’s halfway house. When I was in college I was part of a program for those getting a behavior modification degree to beef up their chops by teaching adoptable dogs at the local shelter basic obedience. I put in a lot of hours in with the shelter there. My first instinct is to go rescue. I am just torn here. I have been looking in depth at 4 breeds for our next dog. Belgian Sheepdog, Australian Shepherd, and Border Collies. Then the oddball of the bunch Keeshond because they have far lower energy needs than all the above. To address the first question. Is a Border Collie an appropriate choice for my lifestyle? We do NOT and will NOT do any dog sports with the next dog. We do not own livestock. We are pretty active though (compared to 90% of those we know). Long walks 3-4 times a week. Interactive play that includes running and being wild in our yard every night with us for at least a half an hour. (The yard is not fenced.) I ride horses. I have access to indoor arenas to work off leash which is how we trained the current dog off leash. Our current dog goes out on trail rides with me 1-2x a week of 4-10 miles a piece. I believe greatly in short burst training. As in, several 10 minute training sessions sprinkled throughout the day to keep the dog on its toes and practicing in different situations. Boon lives indoors with us and is a big part of our lives. The dog does intereact with the ferrets when they have their fre run time, but is under supervision 100% of that time. Never are the 2 species left alone together. Is that environment a fair one to a Border Collie? If my home is bad for a border collie tell me to pack my bags. I am 100% fine with that. As for question number two-Can I even go the rescue route? I want to go the rescue route. But am worried I have a million red flags in the eyes of our local rescues (and have been told to go fly a kite by several). My current dog is a healthy 8 yo MN BSD. I was a vet assistant for a while so I do a lot of “wellness checks” on my own. I have a vet. My dog has been in to see him 3 times in the last 5 years for wellness checks, updated rabies vaccination and a senior blood panel. He sees the vet for emergencies and illness when needed. I minimally vaccinate. I follow a vaccine protocol that vaccinates every 3-5 years or so for distemper. Rabies is done by the vet every 3 years. I buy my own distemper vaccine and do it myself. (I use a distemper only vaccine.) I also feed raw. In my area of the country those are huge black marks against me. Then, the biggest black mark. I have rehomed an adopted dog in the past. We adopted this dog, a Cattle Dog/Pittie mix, from one of those multi breed rescues that popped up after Hurricane Katrina to rehome those dogs that has continued to ship a plethora of dogs up every few months. Our adopted dog suffered from severe separation anxiety, had food guarding issues and suffered from a lick (the floor) stereotypy that was exacerbated by stress. My husband and I chose to keep this dog instead of return it to the rescue because when we were in contact with them about some of his issues they told me I should “spray him in the face” with bitter apple or hot pepper spray the next time he displayed any food guarding behavior. NOT COOL! He was not going back to that. We worked him through the food guarding issue with the help of a trainer no problem. We even succeeded in dramatically reducing his OCD licking thing. The problem was his separation anxiety. We put anti anxiety/antidepressants on board and did major desensitization with him with the help of the trainer. He loved his crate. We reduced his self destructive behaviors by quite a bit, but we could only manage his problem, not fix it. He would continue to defecate and urinate every time we left the house in a panic. He had to be crated as he would become destructive left loose and the way our schedules worked out he would get a big break around midday. That meant he would be soiled (since he had no qualms about lying in it) and we had to bathe him and his crate 2x a day during the work week and any time we couldn’t take him where we were going on the weekend. It was unbearable. He spent 3 years in our home. We were resigned to keeping him until he passed but we had some doggie babysitters that loved him dearly. He never had any problems at their home and they asked us if we would mind helping them find a dog just like him one day. I said “We can do you one better!” and did a trial placement in their home. He has been a different dog there. They live in an extended family home and work opposite shifts. This dog is never alone now. The difference is amazing. I personally feel we did what was best for the dog-but the rescues I have spoken with are not interested with the whys after hearing we have surrendered a dog. Needless to say I am highly damaged goods. Is it even possible to adopt a dog at this point with my black marks? I want to be super careful; to really make sure we have a better fit with our lifestyle this time and wanted to go through a rescue and get a young adult that has been highly evaluated rather than take a bit of a crap shoot with a puppy. I am also not sure I want to go through full fledged puppy stage again. What are the thoughts here? I want to do best by the dog I would be adopting or buying. I am at a point where I am not in a hurry to get the second dog (as in could wait years for the right one and am not ready today) and I am at a point where I want to narrow my focus down to the correct dog for my lifestyle too. I am skittish about the energy level of the herding breeds having raised a BSD. But I love the attitude of the herding breeds. Am I over thinking this too much? Kristy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Kristy, I see nothing in what you wrote that would rule out your having a border collie, and several things indicating that you would be a good home for the right one. I do agree with you that an adult rescue would be your best choice, because a good rescue organization will have evaluated and worked with their dogs and will be able to advise you on which particular dog would fit your lifestyle (for example, some border collies would definitely fixate on ferrets to an undesirable degree, while others would not). All rescue organizations are different in their policies and in their quality. Since you are not in a hurry, perhaps you could look around for a good, more flexible border collie rescue and establish a relationship with them, maybe through volunteering. That could help you too, in weighing a border collie against the other breeds you are considering. Or perhaps some of the folks on the Boards who work with rescues would be able to make more specific suggestions for you. Finally, if no rescue organization will consider you, it is sometimes possible to find a suitable adult dog who needs a new home through informal channels. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Wow! Damaged goods??? I feel horrible for you having written this. I am not a rescue but do foster and rescue individually. There is nothing about you that I can see from your post that would disqualify you for any of my guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I also have BSDs and border collies. I had a BSD before I got a border collie. I was really hesitant on getting a border collie because I'd heard how energetic they were and the BSD I had was just about driving me nuts until he got a bit older and settled somewhat. So I thought a BC would be even worse than that and maybe too much for me. I've had 5 BCs since then and 3 BSDs and can say without exception every single BC I've had has been easier to live with than any of the BSDs. The BSDs are into everything, needy, clingy, always attention seeking, etc. The BCs will just chill and you hardly know they are around (do NOT let one suck you into thinking you need to throw a ball 24/7 - when that happens I'm convinced it's created by owners who buy into all the horror stories about border collie energy levels). Your home sounds like the dog will get plenty of exercise and attention and I think a BC would fit quite well there. The rescues giving you black marks are idtios. That dog you put up with for 3 years - you did the best thing for him and you are a saint for dealing with it for that long. I can't give advice regarding the puppy vs rescue thing - but one thing to ask about either way is if the older dog (or puppy's parents) have a good 'off switch' as I have heard some BCs don't (every one I've ever owned has been wonderful and I've had both working bred and sport bred). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thanks so far. We have a lot of black and white thinking rescues/shelters in our area with very absolute policies. Having worked in rescue with the ferrets and doing the work in college at the shelter I have come to respect that each rescue has every right to their opinion and their policies. I have been told that my vet record excludes me from adotption by some rescues. That my feeding excludes me from some. That my unfenced yard situation excludes me from others and that the fact that I rehomed a dog excludes me as well as any combination of the above. Heck I had one rescue send me nastygrams for rehoming the dog and sent my name out to several shelters as a "Do not adopt to". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Diana- How spooky are the BC's compared to your BSD's? Ours is a spectacular dog but has several spook factors that we would like to not have with our next dog. Which of the two breeds do you find to be more outgoing? I am really intriuged with learning that you create the BC's activity level. Not all dog breeds can do that. I do know one of the breed finalists on my little list the Keeshond is the same way. I like that thought. Can anyone elaborate on that more? (I have read about it in the archives here but am very curious.) One of things I love most about our BSD is his awesome off switch and ability to settle. Kristy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Heck I had one rescue send me nastygrams for rehoming the dog and sent my name out to several shelters as a "Do not adopt to". Mayhem, I am assuming that you signed a contract with the rescue you got that dog from committing yourself to return the dog to them rather than to rehome it yourself if you were no longer going to keep it. If that's the case, there's some justification for their position. I'm not saying I agree with them -- if the facts are as you state them I would have done what you did, and I personally would not hold your doing it against you if I were considering an adoption application from you. But their position is just a little more understandable if you broke a contract with them. If there was no such breach of contract, then I can't see any justification at all for their stance toward you for rehoming that dog in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura L Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Kristy, As someone who also lives in Wisconsin and is a foster home for a Border Collie rescue, I can tell you that not having a fenced yard could be a strike against you. Also rehoming the other rescue dog might too-for our rescue the dog would have to be returned to us, but those wouldn't necessarily be the end of you being considered for an adoption. We tend to take the applications and look at them on a case by case basis and go with the overall feel from that, the references, the call to your vet and the home visit. For what it's worth all of my dogs have an awesome off switch and settle nicely in the house too-Border Collies, a mixed breed & Boston Terriers. I'd say if you're looking for a dog just as a pet, not a working dog go the rescue or shelter route. Laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Diana- How spooky are the BC's compared to your BSD's? Ours is a spectacular dog but has several spook factors that we would like to not have with our next dog. Which of the two breeds do you find to be more outgoing? I am really intriuged with learning that you create the BC's activity level. Not all dog breeds can do that. I do know one of the breed finalists on my little list the Keeshond is the same way. I like that thought. Can anyone elaborate on that more? (I have read about it in the archives here but am very curious.) One of things I love most about our BSD is his awesome off switch and ability to settle. Kristy My BSDs do have an off switch and settle when I do. Just not as good as the border collies do. An example - I'm working at home today and have spent most of the day on the computer. The dogs (BSDs included) are lying around not doing much. I just got up to go to the kithen to get a drink. Two of the border collies picked up their heads, noticed I didn't pick up my cell phone and went back to sleep because they know I'll be back in a minute (if I pick up the phone they know I'm really going somewhere and will all get up). Both BSDs got up, jumped all around me, followed me to the kitchen, stuck their heads in the fridge to see what I was getting, sniffed the can of Pepsi I took out, then frolicked around me on my way back to the computer room where the wrestled with each other and tried for several minutes to instigate the border collies into a game(they got no takers). Now they are all resting quietly again. Creating energy level is a lot of what you encourage and allow I think. There are dogs who may be nuts regardless, and others who may be calm regardless, but border collies are smart dogs and I think as long as you know they're getting sufficient exercise at other times, it's not unfair to expect calm behavior around the house. I have not done anything special to get this from them except when they all at some point try the 'throw the ball' thing with me I just put the ball up on a shelf and then later in the day we can go out in the yard and play a bit, but not in the house. As far as spookiness - my current two BDS are not spooky at all, but they come from some exceptional lines and are a bit unusual for the breed in that regard. My first one (show lines) was dog aggressive and spooky about quite a few things. All 3 of mine have been very outgoing with people, although I have been told that is also not typical of the breed. My two current ones also love all other dogs, again, not typical! They are father and son and the father has European lines bred for various types of working ability (herding, a little schutzhund, and agility), not breed ring dogs. All of my BCs have always been outgoing and great with people except my very first one, he wasn't spooky, he just didn't care about anyone but me and his breeder so he ignored other people. I had one BC who was pretty spooky about odd things, the others have all been very stable. They can be pretty sensitive dogs, as the BSDs are also. As in any breed there's a range of personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Eileen and Laura, Thank you so very much! Yup that stipulation was in their contract and I broke it. I know why I got put on the nasty list and yelled at however a "thanks but no thanks" would have been the classy way to do things instead of telling me it is people like me that are the reasons dogs are killed with a sad little poem about evil people and dogs. I did say I honor their opinion and their right do as they did. I was just giving examples of what I have run up on. The dog we rehomed had been bounced through the rescue's foster homes at least four times by the time we got him. We kept in contact with them until they told us to spray pepper spray in his face for food guarding and sent us a bunch of Ceasar M. links on how to be alpha in the relationship. Their way of training was clearly not going to help this dog and could have done long term harm so I choose the route there. I know it is clearly my fault here and they have every right to be angry. So far it seems that we could handle the correct border collie. The tough part is wanting to rescue. I asked because I wanted to get a feel from any rescue people here if it was plausable to go that route. If there is a resounding no then I likely scratch the breed off my list again. I would rather be 100% honest and walk away than lie. I hope I don't sound defensive here. I just want to be upfront and honest about my motivations and preferences. I take no offence to what has been said here at all Kristy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kling Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Kristy, I can't understand how your experience with your rescue dog gives you black marks, or makes you damaged goods. If your description is accurate, you went to extraordinary lengths to accommodate a difficult dog, and then you found it a great home. Any rescue organization who would frown on that simply isn't thinking straight, contract or no contract. If you don't want to deal with rescue, I would suggest you contact local shelters and ask them to call you when they get a border collie in. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Kristy, Check with your local bc rescue - I think Laura is in Wisconsin too? If they can use some volunteer help, that's a great way for them to get to know you and vice versa. Good luck in your search, Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Be sure to check out Border Collie Rescue of Minnesota -- It wouldn't be a horrible drive for you. They routinely get in very nice dogs, do a great job temperament testing them/placing in correct homes and are very easy to work with. I got Secret from them almost two years ago. Some dogs require a fence, but not the majority. They get in other high energy/herding breed/mixed breed dogs as well as border collies, so lots of options for a great dog. http://bcrofmn.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I also agree that you are not, in my opinion, damaged goods. You seem very responsible and knowledgeable. I would also like to suggest shelters. It may take some time to find the right dog, but after wishing for a red and white split faced b.c., one turned up at a humane society shelter only 30 minutes from my home. I had been looking off and on for over a year, but I got what I wanted and was able to save a dog at the same time. My first b.c. came from a b.c. rescue in Virginia...so I had to travel, but also got what I wanted. I also would like to add that not all border collies live up to the "crazy, whirlwind maniac" reputation that they seem to have. Mine are quite easy to live with, although I might describe them as "quirky" -- but that is what I love most about them. My best wishes for your finding the right dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 All of this is a great help so far. I grew up loving BC's but when I was old enough to actually get one and was working in the animal world all the ones I came across were sport bred and kinda wild so I passed on them as breed when adopting the first time round and got my BSD. There is a working bred BC living down the street from me right now. She lives with a couple in their 70's and the whole neighborhood was holding their breath over that one when she came home as a pup,and she is the calmest sweetest dog I have ever met. Is there a look to a working bred dog that I could pick out from rescue? I can distiguish the Barbies but don't know much from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think that many rescues go on a case by case basis. I got a Border Collie from rescue (in MI) as a college student with no fenced in yard and they waived a couple hard and fast rules in the process. I had a couple of good conversations via email and phone about the dog I was interested, what I did with my current dogs and my general training philosophy. I think that many rescues appreciate it when you lay all the cards on the table. As far as an ability to settle - yesterday I had classes all morning and a test in the afternoon. So my dogs were crated all morning, had a break and were crated for a couple more hours. By the time I was done with my test it was raining hard. I took the dogs for a quick run then went inside and they just chilled for the rest of the day. They had nylabones to chew on and I gave them kongs in the evening and did a couple short training sessions. Now they usually do get more exercise than that and would play/work/exercise for 2-4 hours a day if given the chance, but if it's not an option they just go with the flow and chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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