Cyber Rally

[Root Beer]

A new titling venue has been created where one can earn titles by submitting video, Cyber Rally-O.

 

Although based on traditional Rally, Cyber Rally-O is truly something new. The dog learns to work on both sides of the handler. The handler has more options in handling. And once you move beyond the first level, there are many very interesting and fun exercises that do not exist in traditional Rally, which as transitions from heel to side or side to heel, target work, inclusion of a trick, a jump figure 8, and much, much, much more. Many of these exercises require thinking outside the box to train, and you really won't find anything like this in any of the other titling venues.

 

One of the nicest things about this is that any dog can participate from anywhere. No trials where you live? No problem. Fearful dog? No problem. Reactive dog? No problem.

 

The website for this is not yet complete, but you can get all the information you need to get started by joining the Cyber Rally-O yahoo group at:

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cyberrally-O/

 

Levels 1, 2, and 3 are complete and you can find information about the exercises, and printable signs, in the files section on the group. In addition, courses are posted for Levels 1 and 2. A dog who is trained to do traditional Rally should be able to get started in Level 1 with no problem.

 

For more information, I recommend that you join the yahoo group. The group is very friendly, open, and great about answering any and all questions.

[vaporflowers]

I keep hearing about this but I really hate yahoo groups. I hope they get their website functioning soon... I enjoy the trial environment but I'm curious about this too.

[Root Beer]

They should get the site going soon. I know they are working on it.

 

The thing I like most about this is that there are exercises that are really different from what is required in any other sport out there.

[jdarling]

So you can obtain titles without even showing up anywhere? To me, that removes a huge aspect of competition. At a sheepdog trial, you're competing on the same terrain, on the same sheep, in the same weather, judged by the same person(s), etc. All dogs work great at home on their own sheep, their own place that they've worked a million times, etc. I don't see what weight a "title" would hold that was obtained from home.

 

I assume you also have to send a check to someone?

[Root Beer]

So you can obtain titles without even showing up anywhere?

 

This is not something brand new. WCFO has offered video competition for years. It is actually a lot more difficult than live competition - I've done both and I actually stopped doing video because video competition is just way harder than it needs to be.

 

The Dogs Can Dance Challenge offers Freestyle titling opportunities by video, and so does MDSA. The VALOR Project Agility has been up and running now for a while, as well. A video Rally venue is long overdue.

 

To me, that removes a huge aspect of competition.

 

Then video events are probably not for you.

 

But the demand for these kinds of opportunities is growing, and it is clear that there are others who do enjoy the opportunity. Some appreciate the chance to work on titles with dogs that are reactive or highly fearful. Others appreciate the chance to do so in areas where they do not have access to live events. In this economy there are many who simply cannot afford the costs of travel and lodging to participate in distant events. Some are glad for the opportunity to be able to work with older dogs that can't handle the rigors of live events anymore, but are not yet ready to be retired.

 

And for those who do not want to support AKC sanctioned Rally events, but have no APDT, UKC, or C-WAGS in their area, here is a way to support a very enjoyable alternative.

 

It is not going to appeal to everyone. If one is into training and trialing for the prestige, then this venue is probably not going to be that person's cup of tea. But there are many others who find the chance to earn titles by video to be a great opportunity for many different reasons.

 

At a sheepdog trial, you're competing on the same terrain, on the same sheep, in the same weather, judged by the same person(s), etc. All dogs work great at home on their own sheep, their own place that they've worked a million times, etc. I don't see what weight a "title" would hold that was obtained from home.

 

What "weight" a title holds is really in the eyes of those who earn those titles.

 

I assume you also have to send a check to someone?

 

Of course. What titling venue of any kind offers titling for free? I don't know of any.

 

Realize, though, that it is possible to NQ, in this particular version of Rally, and in all of the video titling venues. It's not a case of "send in the money and get the title". You have to meet the criteria of the organization, get that on video, and a judge scores the performance. And they don't all qualify.

[Debbie Meier]

The only eyebrow I would raise is if a person took a dog titled exclusively under this type of format and elected to breed them regardless of the purpose of the breeding. Temperments are going down the tubes with some lines of dogs as it is, in all reality there are already too many tests that shelter the dog by keeping things controlled and safe.

[Root Beer]

The only eyebrow I would raise is if a person took a dog titled exclusively under this type of format and elected to breed them regardless of the purpose of the breeding. Temperments are going down the tubes with some lines of dogs as it is, in all reality there are already too many tests that shelter the dog by keeping things controlled and safe.

 

Honestly, I've never heard of a dog bred for Rally. Even traditional Rally is not a high profile enough sport for people to start breeding for it. I can't see how a breeder who would market on the basis of a Rally title (alone) would find much of a clientele. Rally has nowhere near the sweeping popularity of Agility.

 

I get what you are saying about the temperament thing, but most people who participate in dog sports want solid temperaments. When it happens that a particular dog does not have the temperament needed to excel in live competition venues, something like this provides a great way to make the best of the situation, appreciate the dog that one has, and enjoy something with that dog in spite of his or her limitations. I don't think that is going to lead to anyone breed a dog with a poor temperament - unless that person was set on breeding to begin with and was going to do so regardless.

[Debbie Meier]

Kinda figured that was the case, but knowing of some of the sketchy temperments and over the top excitability that are being bred regardless of the issues by some agility folks I can't help but raise an eyebrow and wonder.

 

I don't know anything about Rally-O aside from what the lady that delivers our dog food has said, she is thinking of introducing it to her 4H kids feeling that it will be a better fit for the kids following obedience as opposed to agility. It's apt to get alot more popular

[vaporflowers]

Rally seems to be a lot more accessible and fun for a lot of people, especially those without traditional obedience breeds. A basset hound qualified in our Rally Excellent ring on Sunday; first place went to a Boston terrier.

 

I don't think that breeding for Rally will ever become a trend... never say never, I suppose, but the skills needed for Rally are similar to competitive obedience. Focus, motivation, drive, intelligence, etc. But Rally is more watered down; you are allowed to praise and encourage the dog to motivate them, and the exercises have a little more variability. And again, non-traditional breeds tend to compete and do well. There already are breeders focused on breeding obedience titled dogs, and they often throw on a Rally title or two, but I really have a hard time picturing breeders heavily promoting their Rally accomplishments as the sole "selling point".

 

Here's hoping that never happens at least...

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I can't see how a breeder who would market on the basis of a Rally title (alone) would find much of a clientele.

 

 

I don't think that breeding for Rally will ever become a trend... <snip> I really have a hard time picturing breeders heavily promoting their Rally accomplishments as the sole "selling point".

 

"Herding" (a.k.a. stockwork) has nowhere near the sweeping popularity of agility, yet we know breeders are using an "HIC" (Herding Instinct Certificate) as a major selling point for breeders.

 

ETA: My point being that people will grasp at anything remotely resembling an accomplishment, in order to sell puppies.

[Olivia]

How would you NQ in this venue? If you are given the course and then set it up and video yourself... if my dog doesn't sit correctly, then restart the video; if I get lost on course, restart the video. You can practice the course as many times as you want before doing the final video. I don't really see the challenge for the normal dog and handler team, seems kind of like a money making venture to me.

[SecretBC]

Yes, if you enjoy rally, then by all means do rally. If your dog can't handle the competition environment (and personally, I don't think rally trials are all that stressful) then keep playing and having fun with rally at home.

 

I do not see the point in obtaining "titles" via video. As was mentioned above, what is the challenge if you can continue to try over and over again until you get it right?

 

I also feel that one of the challenges of obtaining titles via attending regular competitions is that you prove your dog is capable of working in different environments. My dogs are A+++ agility stars at home and would have multiple champion titles if I could send those runs to someone to be judged. But part of the sport of agility is proving that our dogs are versatile and can work in different environments and on different equipment.

 

So yeah.... I don't put much stock in "video competition." But hey, if it makes people happy, it's their money.

[Journey]

I don't really see the challenge for the normal dog and handler team, seems kind of like a money making venture to me.

 

Ha ha....what title oriented venue isn't a money making scheme This way they cost less, there's no peer pressure to improve, there's no competition and most of all everyone walks away with a warm and fuzzy feeling! And here I used to think think *cheap titles* meant going to Puerto Rico to finish a dog

[PSmitty]

Yes, if you enjoy rally, then by all means do rally. If your dog can't handle the competition environment (and personally, I don't think rally trials are all that stressful) then keep playing and having fun with rally at home.

 

I do not see the point in obtaining "titles" via video. As was mentioned above, what is the challenge if you can continue to try over and over again until you get it right?

 

I also feel that one of the challenges of obtaining titles via attending regular competitions is that you prove your dog is capable of working in different environments. My dogs are A+++ agility stars at home and would have multiple champion titles if I could send those runs to someone to be judged. But part of the sport of agility is proving that our dogs are versatile and can work in different environments and on different equipment.

 

So yeah.... I don't put much stock in "video competition." But hey, if it makes people happy, it's their money.

 

Ditto. If it makes the people and dogs happy, and they don't mind spending the money, then more power to them. I spend my money on things other people probably think are silly, too. To each his own.

[jdarling]

...

[Root Beer]

How would you NQ in this venue? If you are given the course and then set it up and video yourself... if my dog doesn't sit correctly, then restart the video; if I get lost on course, restart the video. You can practice the course as many times as you want before doing the final video. I don't really see the challenge for the normal dog and handler team, seems kind of like a money making venture to me.

 

Have you ever actually done it? Tried to get the perfect take of a Rally run on video? (Or Freestyle performance, etc.) Specifically for submission to a judged event?

 

It's easy to think it would be simple to have everything go perfectly when you have a large measure of control over the situation, but in most cases that's not how it goes. Yes, sometimes you get lucky and get a great take. More often than not, at least one thing goes wrong, and often there are elements that are borderline and could go either way, depending on the judge. You end up choosing the best take you have to submit and that is rarely perfect.

 

There is actually an element of stress in trying to get a good enough take to submit that is not in play in live events where you get one chance and you don't get an opportunity to try it again.

 

I'm interested in what your firsthand experience is with video events.

 

As to your question about the NQ, if your best take contained elements that could go either way, depending on the judge, you could NQ if the judge does not rule in your favor. You might also miss something that the judge might pick up on.

[Root Beer]

I do not see the point in obtaining "titles" via video. As was mentioned above, what is the challenge if you can continue to try over and over again until you get it right?

 

Have you ever actually done it? Entered a titling event via video? It's not as easy as it might seem if you have never done it. I was surprised by how difficult I found it to be when I got started entering video events in Freestyle. The harder you try for that perfect take, the less perfect things tend to get. In fact, I almost always end up using my first take, even after trying over and over to get a better take. The dogs tend to tire very quickly of doing the same thing over and over and over and over, so unless you have access to a ring space and videographer to video casually over the course of several days (most people don't), you end up having to choose from the takes you can get while you have access to your ring space and camera person.

 

In addition, this particular manifestation of Rally has some very unique exercises that traditional Rally does not. I am going to enjoy training those, and I am going to enjoy running the courses and making the videos. What this particular venue has to offer is not available in a live format. At least not in my area. C-WAGS is somewhat similar, but it doesn't exist here. Although I actually like this even better than C-WAGS.

 

And yes, the idea of not having to pay to enter a live event where one knocked over ring gate or one gunshot or one clap of thunder = hearing my entry fee be flushed down the toilet is appealing. I will readily admit that I would rather spend money on something that is actually more beneficial to my dog. Not that I won't ever compete with him in traditional Rally again, live (he is going to finish his ARCH, which he has two QQ's toward), but there are very few opportunities to do so in a place that is appropriate for him.

 

For those who say there is no challenge to it, I hereby challenge you to try to train the exercises through the third level of Cyber Rally (there are going to be 5, I believe), send in your videos, get those three titles, and see if there really is no challenge involved. I think most of you would be very surprised to find it a lot more challenging than it looks to someone who hasn't even tried to participate in a sport via a video format.

 

When it comes down to it, I consider dog sports to be primarily about the relationship between dog and handler and accomplishing something together and good training and enjoyment. For some dogs, video format is more appropriate than live events. I am sincerely glad that these opportunities are opening up for these teams.

[Root Beer]

Ha ha....what title oriented venue isn't a money making scheme This way they cost less, there's no peer pressure to improve, there's no competition and most of all everyone walks away with a warm and fuzzy feeling! And here I used to think think *cheap titles* meant going to Puerto Rico to finish a dog

 

Horror of horrors that some people might actually spend time training their dogs to a certain standard in a discipline in which both dog and handler have interest, put in the work needed to meet the criteria stipulated to earn a title, be successful (likely after a good many unsuccessful tries), and have the audacity to feel good about it afterward!!

 

And to make it even worse, those people and their dogs might actually . . . . gasp . . . enjoy themselves along the way!

 

It's unthinkable!!

[Root Beer]

"Herding" (a.k.a. stockwork) has nowhere near the sweeping popularity of agility, yet we know breeders are using an "HIC" (Herding Instinct Certificate) as a major selling point for breeders.

 

Actually, to those who are not involved in any way with stockwork, "herding" has a certain allure because it's unique and there is an attraction to exposing a dog to his or her ancestral roots, especially if the dog is a herding breed. I know that those who are seriously into stockwork don't see things that way at all, but quite a lot of people outside the stockdog world do.

 

I know, there will probably be a hue and a cry because I actually said that, but it is something that I have observed among those outside of the stockdog world as someone who is outside of the stockdog world.

 

A breeder who wants to market herding breed dogs to AKC performance homes may draw in buyers by earning a HIC on the dog. A breeder who wants to market pet or sport dogs isn't going to find that kind of draw with Rally titles. Agility titles or Flyball would make the dogs far more marketable.

[Debbie Meier]

Actually, to those who are not involved in any way with stockwork, "herding" has a certain allure because it's unique and there is an attraction to exposing a dog to his or her ancestral roots, especially if the dog is a herding breed. I know that those who are seriously into stockwork don't see things that way at all, but quite a lot of people outside the stockdog world do.

 

I know, there will probably be a hue and a cry because I actually said that, but it is something that I have observed among those outside of the stockdog world as someone who is outside of the stockdog world.

 

 

 

Heard it, read it, seen it first hand even good old Ceasar preaches it.

[jdarling]

Have you ever actually done it? Entered a titling event via video? It's not as easy as it might seem if you have never done it. I was surprised by how difficult I found it to be when I got started entering video events in Freestyle. The harder you try for that perfect take, the less perfect things tend to get. In fact, I almost always end up using my first take, even after trying over and over to get a better take. The dogs tend to tire very quickly of doing the same thing over and over and over and over, so unless you have access to a ring space and videographer to video casually over the course of several days (most people don't), you end up having to choose from the takes you can get while you have access to your ring space and camera person.

 

Exactly, Kristine. In live competition, you get one shot. Take it or leave it. Like it or lump it. You either nail it ... or you don't. The first time. As does everyone else. In the same conditions. On the same field. Under the same judge. It is as close to a level playing field as it gets.

 

And no, I don't doubt that taking a perfect video with a dog in it is difficult. While I've never formally submitted anything for a title and never will, I did, however, try videotaping one of my dogs getting me a beer from the fridge very recently to show a friend of mine on the East coast. I did it ten or twelve times trying to get it perfect, and ended up using the first or second take.

 

Rally-O is commonly referred to as a dumbed-down version of obedience. To me, this all seems like another way of dumbing down an already dumbed down system. It's like getting affirmation from someone that your dog can do the stuff at home -- which you already knew because you sent them the video!

 

But I guess ... whatever floats someone's boat. Isn't there a saying about a fool and his money?

[Maralynn]

I've done a couple of online training contests for fun where we were judged via video submission. I didn't really think it was that difficult, but maybe that was just me. I did several takes, chose the best and sent it in. The hardest part was converting the videos.

 

It was far easier than other performance venues that I've been judged on.

 

But I kind of through that the point of rally was not to be so precise - more to just get out and have fun with your dog.

 

Anyways, to me the bottom line is if this is your cup of tea and you want to do this to have fun with your dog or to measure milestones, go for it. But training for it/performing is definitely much easier than performing in a regular venue - apples and oranges different.

[Root Beer]

Exactly, Kristine. In live competition, you get one shot. Take it or leave it. Like it or lump it. You either nail it ... or you don't. The first time. As does everyone else. In the same conditions. On the same field. Under the same judge. It is as close to a level playing field as it gets.

 

And that's an option that is still available to those who have live events in their area, who have dogs who are suited to the environment at live events, and who care to participate in live events.

 

As I said above, I have actually found live Freestyle events to be far easier than video competition, even though there is only one shot at a live event. Video events bring their own challenges and difficulties. Many of which I didn't really have any awareness of until I actually tried it for myself.

 

Rally-O is commonly referred to as a dumbed-down version of obedience. To me, this all seems like another way of dumbing down an already dumbed down system. It's like getting affirmation from someone that your dog can do the stuff at home -- which you already knew because you sent them the video!

 

So, you see it as "dumbed-down". Others see it as enjoyable and worthwhile, and yes - a worthy challenge to their team.

 

There is absolutely nothing about titling through a video format that prevents a dog and handler team from building a better working relationship, from accomplishing something together, from reaping benefits of good training, nor from enjoying themselves immensely.

 

But I guess ... whatever floats someone's boat. Isn't there a saying about a fool and his money?

 

There are many who would say that owning dogs at all is a foolish waste of money. In their eyes, all of us here are just as foolish as you consider those who consider video events to be a worthwhile undertaking.

 

What matters and what is of value really is in the eye of the beholder.

[Root Beer]

Apples and oranges different.

 

It really is an apples and oranges kind of thing.

 

Live events present challenges that video events do not. Video events present challenges that live events do not.

 

With the technology that we have at our disposal now, I think that video opportunities are going to continue to become more readily available, which is great news for many dog and handler teams.

[Maralynn]

Video events present challenges that live events do not.

 

Can you expound on this?

 

The one thing that I did figure out from the video contests I was in was that I could look like a training genius if I presented everything via video. I had the opportunity to be in control of everything and to only show my best work. I didn't really even need to proof behavior.