Cyber Rally

[Root Beer]

Can you expound on this?

 

The one thing that I did figure out from the video contests I was in was that I could look like a training genius if I presented everything via video. I had the opportunity to be in control of everything and to only show my best work. I didn't really even need to proof behavior.

 

What exactly were you doing by video? What was the time duration of the entire run/performance? How many specific criteria had to be met during that duration? What were the judges looking for, exactly? Were you able to edit your final submission?

 

All of those things, among other things, are going to play a part in determining the difficulty level when it comes to video.

 

In Freestyle, for example, you can get through a nearly 3 minute routine with an almost perfect performance and then the dog can lose focus or miss a significant move, or moves, at the end. Editing the video is not permitted, so you can't just lop off the poor ending and edit a better one back on.

 

So, now that the dog has given a full performance, and you have just experienced having a near perfect performance derailed at the end, you have to start over from scratch. Now the dog isn't as fresh and you are somewhat on edge, and often the dog can read that and that will show up in the next take. It happened once, it can happen again and you know it. While you do have the option of submitting your best work, in the end, most participants end up having to submit routines with some level of flaws, even as their best take.

 

In video Freestyle, no training devices, aids, or reinforcers are allowed in the ring, so the moves have to be trained to the exact same fluency and duration that they would be for live competition. All of the criteria that is in place for live events is in place for the video event. In addition, some dogs actually "feed" off of the presence of the audience in a live performance and with that not being present at a filming (unless you round up an audience to film in front of), and with that missing, the energy with which the dog typically performs can be different from what you are used to. An entire routine can fall absolutely flat on video.

 

For some, finding a suitable space to video can be quite an issue. I have been absolutely astonished at some of the places I've seen that people have done video for Freestyle video events. One team that really stood out did their video outside in the snow!! There was about 6 inches of snow on the ground and the space for the ring had been cleared. There was just about an inch left in the ring space. They danced on that inch of snow! I can't say I'm that dedicated! I was impressed by that level of motivation.

 

Ring size is determined in Freestyle. I am blessed with an acre yard that is relatively flat and two spacious indoor areas where I can train and video on a regular basis. Many of the Japanese Freestylers, in contrast, do their competition videos wherever they can secure the proper sized space and they usually have to improvise - often in alleyways!!

 

In addition, there are different choreography challenges in play in video performance. The places in the ring that provide the best points of showcasing often vanish altogether on video. So, there is an art to choreographing for video that differs from choreographing for live events. You have to make sure that all of your movement features the dog in view of the camera. That can be very difficult when working in transitions and moves where the dog is partially blocked from most angles.

 

Granted, a lot of this wouldn't apply in Rally. The courses are provided by the organization. I haven't actually done any videos for Rally yet, but I will be interested to see how the two disciplines compare and contrast in a video format. I won't know until I actually have some experience with the video Rally.

 

I don't expect to have a lot of difficulty with Speedy or Dean in the first level. It's not as easy peasy as AKC Rally, but the first level of Cyber Rally is somewhat simpler than APDT Rally, which both of them have done successfully many times. But when we get into the second and third level where there are exercises that I will be training with both of them for the first time, it will become more of a challenge. All exercises will have to be trained to full fluency. Rewards cannot be visible. And, as in video Freestyle, no editing of the video is allowed.

 

Where a good take can make you look like a training genius, a poor take can accentuate every flaw imaginable and then some. And sometimes the best take is not what you would want it to be, but it's the best you are going to do.

[Maralynn]

I guess my point is more that your success lies in your video skills, finding the right place to tape, etc, than your training ability. While you're not supposed to edit videos, a skilled person could do it with relative ease nowadays.

 

And once again, it's pretty easy to train a three minute routine in your back yard. You can control the distractions, you can eliminate 99% of those curve balls.

 

I also look at titles as some sort of final exam so to speak. You prep for it like crazy, but are never quite sure what you're going to get. A curve ball that you didn't prep for might be thrown at you that you have to deal with. Titles gained via video submission is more like being allowed to take a cheat sheet into that final exam. It's fun to do with your dog, but it's gained at a much lower standard than traditional titles.

 

I do understand what you're saying about sustained focus, but, IMO three minutes is not a lot to train for in the way of sustained focus. And if you get it wrong, you review your video, train for a few more days and try it again. It's not an extra/different challenge because you're doing it for a video. It's just part of training.

 

The videos I did were for a pet trick contest. Voting was based on originality and the skill with which the dog performed the behavior you chose.

Maybe I found it easy because I comparing it to the first part of SAR evals? (takes 1 hr minimum, 5 different types of behavior that the dog is evaluated on, breaks in between but each step is 5-10 minutes long)

[Root Beer]

I guess my point is more that your success lies in your video skills, finding the right place to tape, etc, than your training ability. While you're not supposed to edit videos, a skilled person could do it with relative ease nowadays.

 

And there we disagree. While it can be done, you do sign to verify that you have not edited your video. I wouldn't do it. Most people wouldn't do it. But people cheat in live competition, too. The fact that it is possible to cheat, either live or by video, doesn't mean that most people do it. I think it would be far too embarrassing to be caught submitting an edited performance to even risk, even if honesty were not my motivation for following that rule (although honesty is my personal reason). All it would take is one giveaway "blip" to destroy one's credibility in the sport for good.

 

I have found that video events test my training skill just as much as those other things. Duration is duration, fluency is fluency, and precision is precision, regardless of the environment. Sure, there is a challenge to running or performing in a new environment. Then again, go compete someplace a few times and it becomes familiar to the dog. Some people actually rent the space where they will compete ahead of time to get the dog used to it. None of that is cheating, nor is performing by video if the rules allow for it. It is simply different format. One that may be more appropriate to some for many reasons.

 

And once again, it's pretty easy to train a three minute routine in your back yard. You can control the distractions, you can eliminate 99% of those curve balls.

 

You must be really be quite an amazing trainer, if you can train to the point where you can perform flawlessly for 3 minutes, under organization standards, especially when you add in the criteria of trying to get a good video. I haven't actually found it to be easy at all.

 

I also look at titles as some sort of final exam so to speak. You prep for it like crazy, but are never quite sure what you're going to get. A curve ball that you didn't prep for might be thrown at you that you have to deal with. Titles gained via video submission is more like being allowed to take a cheat sheet into that final exam. It's fun to do with your dog, but it's gained at a much lower standard than traditional titles.

 

And there I also disagree.

 

I will readily admit that before I actually tried it myself, I thought it would be much easier than live competition. In fact, I've found that it is actually more difficult in some ways. Granted, that is Freestyle, not Rally. Can't say yet how the Rally will compare, although even that won't be a perfect comparison since live Rally is missing quite a lot of the elements that make this new venue particularly interesting.

 

I do understand what you're saying about sustained focus, but, IMO three minutes is not a lot to train for in the way of sustained focus. And if you get it wrong, you review your video, train for a few more days and try it again. It's not an extra/different challenge because you're doing it for a video. It's just part of training.

 

I didn't say it was an extra/different challenge. It is actually pretty much the same one minus some aspects of live events that are not in play, plus some aspects of video events that are in play.

 

And on that we agree - it's all part of training. As far as three minutes of sustained focus not being much, it wouldn't be if that were all that's required. There is far more criteria than that, though. And that criteria is what provides the challenge, whether one is performing live or by video.

 

The videos I did were for a pet trick contest. Voting was based on originality and the skill with which the dog performed the behavior you chose.

 

Yeah, that's definitely apples and oranges. Especially if the duration of the trick performed (you did say behavior, which indicates a single skill or single short chain of skills) was seconds, as opposed to minutes.

 

Had you been required to perform 20 - 40 tricks with heelwork on all four sides (OK, at least 3!) in between, for a duration of several minutes, the comparison would be more applicable.

 

Maybe I found it easy because I comparing it to the first part of SAR evals? (takes 1 hr minimum, 5 different types of behavior that the dog is evaluated on, breaks in between but each step is 5-10 minutes long)

 

Maybe. I find Rally to be generally easier than Freestyle. I find Agility to be generally easier than Freestyle. I expect that I would find filming a single trick to be a piece of cake compared to any of it.

 

Finally, I'd like to put a question to you. And yes, this is a personal example. I make no apology for that.

 

Speedy can't handle going to live events anymore. He has arthritis and he gets stiff at live events from so much time in the car or crate. I don't like to have him be stiff for days for any reason that is not absolutely necessary, so I have retired him from live competition. Still, he enjoys training and he adores performing. I will say he preferred a live audience to the camera, but he does get a huge kick out of performing for the camera, too. It helps me to stay on task to film him for video events and participate in those. I find that the qualifiers and titles that we earn actually mean just as much to me as the ones he earned at live events as a younger dog. They haven't been giveaways and we haven't automatically Q'ed every time.

 

Yes, I could focus my efforts on my younger dogs and just run him through some tricks at home each day, but the chance to take part in events by video enriches our training and performance together. I have absolutely no desire to put him out to pasture while he still has a desire to do this. He is still my training and performance partner and this is the way that we can keep that going until he gets to a point where he doesn't want to do it anymore.

 

Can you please explain to me exactly why you think I should consider what I am doing with him "cheating" or of "lesser value" than what I did with him when he was younger and could physically handle live events? I am really interested to know why you (or anyone) would think that I should either do live events with him (which would cause him physical pain and so is not an acceptable option to me at this point) or quit altogether (which would cause us both to miss out continuing our relationship as performance partners) rather than thoroughly enjoy video events with him. I can honestly say that starting Freestyle in a new format at this stage of his life has been a beautiful tribute to everything that he has given to me throughout his life. I think I'd be a fool to walk away from that because there are some who feel it's not worthwhile.

[Maralynn]

I think you misunderstood me then. I didn't say I thought anyone was cheating. The "cheat sheet" example was just to illustrate that it is easier passing a test if you've got cues or aids. Nothing more.

 

Yeah, that's definitely apples and oranges. Especially if the duration of the trick performed (you did say behavior, which indicates a single skill or single short chain of skills) was seconds, as opposed to minutes.

 

Had you been required to perform 20 - 40 tricks with heelwork on all four sides (OK, at least 3!) in between, for a duration of several minutes, the comparison would be more applicable

 

 

I guess I misspoke then. I did both single behavior and a multiple behavior videos. They ranged from less than a minute to about 2 minutes.

 

And I guess if we're going to get technical, you only specified a three minute focused routine, not a specific number of behaviors.

 

And on that we agree - it's all part of training. As far as three minutes of sustained focus not being much, it wouldn't be if that were all that's required. There is far more criteria than that, though. And that criteria is what provides the challenge, whether one is performing live or by video.

 

I was just using the three minute example that you gave. But I do stand by the idea that 3 minutes of sustained focus performing multiple behaviors is not too hard to attain. It's a milestone alright and takes work, but competitors do it all the time with dogs.

 

Can you please explain to me exactly why you think I should consider what I am doing with him "cheating" or of "lesser value" than what I did with him when he was younger and could physically handle live events?

 

I cannot explain this because I didn't say that there was anything wrong with doing it. I did not say you were cheating or shouldn't do it with your dog.

 

In fact I said quite the opposite -

Anyways, to me the bottom line is if this is your cup of tea and you want to do this to have fun with your dog or to measure milestones, go for it. But training for it/performing is definitely much easier than performing in a regular venue

 

And I laid out my reasoning and experiences that led me to believe that it was much easier.

[vaporflowers]

You must be really be quite an amazing trainer, if you can train to the point where you can perform flawlessly for 3 minutes, under organization standards, especially when you add in the criteria of trying to get a good video. I haven't actually found it to be easy at all.

 

My dog's Rally performances aren't 3 minutes long, because he is ridiculously fast, but we've gotten four perfect 100 scores in Novice and Advanced, in live competition, with distractions. Our other scores were 93, 99, 99, and 95. We've NEVER NQ'd in Rally, because that's pretty hard to do. We had an Excellent B class of 30-something dogs and they all qualified on Sunday.

 

My SO filmed all of those runs, and could just as easily film them at home. He films our practice sometimes. We also filmed our 3.5 minute Open obedience run, which was a qualifying run until groups, when Scorch downed with 10 seconds left on the out-of-sight sit.

 

So I don't think filming 3 minutes of focus would be a challenge for me... because I've done it, while actively being judged in person.

 

Now new Rally exercises? That I find interesting, and I would love to have some new elements to add unpredictability to our run-throughs.

[Root Beer]

Now new Rally exercises? That I find interesting, and I would love to have some new elements to add unpredictability to our run-throughs.

 

How 'bout some of these for new? These are from the second level.

 

Transition (From side to heel or heel to side)

 

Send to Target. Sit. Recall to Heel.

 

Send to Target. Down. Recall to Side

 

Stop. 360°in Place. Dog Outside

 

Stop. Do Any Trick.

 

Dog 360°

 

Call Front. Dog 360

 

Single Jump Figure 8

 

And a few from the third level:

 

Serpentine Switch (3 Cones)

 

Stop. Dog Circles Handler

 

Dog Circles Handler While Moving.

 

Stop. Double Leg Weave

 

Stop. Single Weave to Front. Finish (Circle)

 

Stop. Toss. Dog Retrieves. Leave Object

 

Triple About Turn (Dog Outside)

 

Triple About Turn (Dog Inside)

 

Stop. Send Over Jump. Dog Waits

 

Retrieve Over Single Jump

 

Cone Loops

 

Cone Loops (6) Alternating

 

To me this is one of the biggest draws of the venue. It is truly unique. Add in that the dog must work on both the left and right (above the first level), and you have a huge challenge for anyone transitioning in from traditional Rally or Obedience. That part is par for the course with Freestylers, but to many it is new.

[Root Beer]

I guess I misspoke then. I did both single behavior and a multiple behavior videos. They ranged from less than a minute to about 2 minutes.

 

How many behaviors were included in the 2 minute video. Was that consecutive, without reinforcers, or were you able to edit the pieces together?

 

And I guess if we're going to get technical, you only specified a three minute focused routine, not a specific number of behaviors.

 

Since I was talking about Freestyle, I took for granted that you knew that a Freestyle routine has to contain a fairly large amount of distinct behaviors, or you have no hope of qualifying (live or by video). And, of course, those are choreographed to music and must match the music on some level (depending on venue and level).

 

I didn't realize you weren't aware of that.

 

I was just using the three minute example that you gave. But I do stand by the idea that 3 minutes of sustained focus performing multiple behaviors is not too hard to attain. It's a milestone alright and takes work, but competitors do it all the time with dogs.

 

That's an interesting statement to me. I know many people - good trainers and performers - who spend years working and training and rehearsing and who rarely experience a perfect performance where everything comes together exactly right, whether the performance is on video or live. It happens, but I don't know a single one of them would would say it is not hard to attain.

 

And I laid out my reasoning and experiences that led me to believe that it was much easier.

 

So, on this we will have to agree to disagree. As someone who has earned titles by video, I can honestly say that many of the titles I've earned at live competitions have come a heck of a lot easier.

 

This is most likely one of those things that depends a great deal on the actual experiences of the individual team.

[Maralynn]

Since I was talking about Freestyle, I took for granted that you knew that a Freestyle routine has to contain a fairly large amount of distinct behaviors, or you have no hope of qualifying (live or by video). And, of course, those are choreographed to music and must match the music on some level (depending on venue and level).

 

I didn't realize you weren't aware of that.

 

That's because you started off asking about Rally and how difficult is was to get a good video of Rally exercises.

 

Have you ever actually done it? Tried to get the perfect take of a Rally run on video?

 

----

 

There is actually an element of stress in trying to get a good enough take to submit that is not in play in live events where you get one chance and you don't get an opportunity to try it again.

 

and

 

Have you ever actually done it? Entered a titling event via video?

 

So I mentioned that I had done something with a video (wasn't titled, but there was training, judging and prizes involved)

 

And the criteria was upped to freestyle, 20-40 behaviors and several minutes.

 

Had you been required to perform 20 - 40 tricks with heelwork on all four sides (OK, at least 3!) in between, for a duration of several minutes, the comparison would be more applicable.

 

And

 

Since I was talking about Freestyle, I took for granted that you knew that a Freestyle routine has to contain a fairly large amount of distinct behaviors, or you have no hope of qualifying (live or by video). And, of course, those are choreographed to music and must match the music on some level (depending on venue and level).

 

That was not in the discussion when I entered and gave my experience.

 

I'll bow out now as there is nothing really I can add. I probably would have never joined in the conversation if all the recent criteria would have been clearly established from the get go.

 

I am sincerely glad that you enjoy doing this with your dogs.

[Root Beer]

That's because you started off asking about Rally and how difficult is was to get a good video of Rally exercises.

 

I guess you missed the end of the sentence that you quoted above. I said right off:

 

Have you ever actually done it? Entered a titling event via video? It's not as easy as it might seem if you have never done it. I was surprised by how difficult I found it to be when I got started entering video events in Freestyle.

 

and . . .

 

In Freestyle, for example,

 

and . . .

 

I haven't actually done any videos for Rally yet, but I will be interested to see how the two disciplines compare and contrast in a video format. I won't know until I actually have some experience with the video Rally.

 

I've stated several times that my video titling experience is in Freestyle. Yes, the topic at hand is Rally, but since I do not yet have actual video Rally competition experience (nobody here does - this literally just started), I drew consistently on my video Freestyle experience throughout the discussion.

 

That has been the case in the discussion in all of my direct responses to you. I'd say quite obviously. But if you missed that, I beg pardon for not being clearer. It was never my intention to hide the fact that the experience from which I was drawing in this discussion was anything other than video Freestyle.

 

I may, in fact, find video Rally to be easier than video Freestyle. In fact, at the first level I expect I will. Although I've been surprised before in finding that something that I thought would be easy is more difficult than meets the eye. Will the first level in video Rally present such a surprise? I will find out very soon since I am hoping to try it out with Speedy while he is on a bit of a break from Freestyle while recovering from a leg injury.

 

I do expect, though, that training some of the exercises that I listed above will present genuine training challenges of their own. Good challenges - the kind I would expect when entering into a new discipline with a dog. But challenges that require training and work, all the same. I expect to enjoy it immensely.

[bc soul sista]

I kind of find the whole "video titling" to be quite rediculous, what next?? They are making it possible for ANYBODY to say they have some sort of "title" now...with little effort at all..I actually kind of find it insulting for the people who have the talent and skill necessary to compete in live events.

 

Everything ABOUT your training from the foundation skills up preps the dog to compete in live events, against other competitors. Otherwise you might as well be a petsmart APDT with a clicker, taking video of your "lure trained" puppy doing rally exercises in the control of your own living room.

 

From the time you have a pup to be trained for performance events it all revolves around the idea you will eventually be in a highly distracting environment with situations you can't control. From the time you start teaching a prospective obedience dog to FOCUS, you will be spending %90 of your training efforts towards this which will be TESTED in competition. Your ability to train the dog and the dogs talent level aswell. In Agility also, the dog must be focused in LIVE instances. In herding, your skills will be tested on unkown sheep on a possible unknown field...ALL of you preperation leads up yto this.

 

NOT to mention the hundreds of hours those of us put in traveling to other facilities..proofing, proofing, training, correcting, rewarding, proofing, proofing!!!! For herding, GETTING to other fields, practicing on different sheep...Well what's the point of all of this if you can just get some kind of recognition for doing this in your back yard??

 

I hate to say it..but LIVE competition seperated the "men from the boys" so to speak people......It tests your ultimate talent as a trainer to prepare your dog and your dogs talent as well...

 

I can understand if the dog has some physical(although I would like to add that I've seen dogs up to age 14 still joyfully competing in obedience and just saw a 12 yr old dog win an open sheepdog trial) or mental disorder that maybe prohibits it from live competition but I think most of it is the excuses of the owner. And most people who will do these "video" competitions are people that for whatever reason can't cut it LIVE and want to title chase..

[jdarling]

I'm starting a new herding titling organization. It's called Herding Over Anyone's Xpectations.

 

Titles available are:

 

HIV (Herding Instinct Video)

 

VD I, II and III (Video Dog)

 

HPV I, II and III (Herding Progressive Video)

 

For those who would like their championship, they need to have their HIV, VD and HPV ..... and then start collecting points for their Ultimate Title Toward Excellent Recording. Once that is complete, applications with videos can be sent to me with a check.

 

Please make sure you specify you are applying for your UTTER HOAX.

 

Hurry. Space is limited.

[Root Beer]

I kind of find the whole "video titling" to be quite rediculous, what next?? They are making it possible for ANYBODY to say they have some sort of "title" now...with little effort at all..I actually kind of find it insulting for the people who have the talent and skill necessary to compete in live events.

 

I'm sorry you find it insulting. I work with quite a lot of people who have dogs that, due to temperament issues that are beyond the dog's control, will never be able to be present at live events with other dogs. Some of these dogs will never even be able to be in regular classes with other dogs (although many go on to such classes), but they are talented dogs that enjoy working with their handlers. And many of these handlers are dedicated trainers who invest the same kind of time, work, and dedication into helping their dogs accomplish things that normal dogs do by nature (and that the handlers of normal dogs tend to take majorly for granted) that owners of normal dogs put into more conventional training.

 

Many of these dog owners enjoy training, and they find it helpful to have goals to train to. These venues are offering opportunities for them to set training goals, enjoy their dogs, build working relationship with their dogs, and both the dog and handler benefit. And they can now earn titles in a setting that is appropriate for the dog. Or in a setting that the handler can logistically manage (if participation is due to distance from live competition venues)

 

What do you think these people should do? Dump the dogs in rescue and go get dogs with a different temperament? Sit out and do nothing? Yes, they could just train at home and do nothing with the training. Some people are quite content to do that. Others are not content to do that.

 

So, whether it insults you or not, venues are starting to open to these teams that serve a need that is becoming greater and greater in the dog sport world.

 

If it means nothing to you, don't do it.

 

Everything ABOUT your training from the foundation skills up preps the dog to compete in live events, against other competitors. Otherwise you might as well be a petsmart APDT with a clicker, taking video of your "lure trained" puppy doing rally exercises in the control of your own living room.

 

Not sure where you got the impression that clickers or luring are allowed in APDT Rally. Neither are. AKC Rally allows luring (no clickers, though). Lure in APDT Rally, and you will NQ faster than you could click if you had a clicker.

 

In addition, APDT Rally does not offer a video option. I do not believe there are any plans to do so.

 

As far as training being about live events - you know, it doesn't have to be. It's not a law of nature or some kind of objective moral truth. Live events were new at one time, also. And I'll bet they were ridiculed in some form or another, also. Now cyber events are new. That doesn't mean that they are some sort of affront to those who choose live events. It's something different.

 

When it comes down to it, training is training. Behavior is behavior. It's only "worthless" to take part in an activity outside of live competition if that's your personal opinion. Obviously to others, who are happy to enjoy these opportunities, it is worth something. To some, it may be worth a great deal.

 

From the time you have a pup to be trained for performance events it all revolves around the idea you will eventually be in a highly distracting environment with situations you can't control. From the time you start teaching a prospective obedience dog to FOCUS, you will be spending %90 of your training efforts towards this which will be TESTED in competition. Your ability to train the dog and the dogs talent level aswell. In Agility also, the dog must be focused in LIVE instances.

 

That is the traditional manner of things. But for many, that plan is derailed along the way for various and sundry reasons. Sometimes it's possible to work through the roadblocks. And sometimes it's not. And when it's not, some people quit and that's fine for those who are content to do so. Others continue to train without the goal of live events in mind. This is a new opportunity for those folks.

 

NOT to mention the hundreds of hours those of us put in traveling to other facilities..proofing, proofing, training, correcting, rewarding, proofing, proofing!!!!

 

Nobody forces anyone to travel, train, reward, proof, etc. etc.. It's a choice.

 

If someone else is unable to do what you have chosen to do, and that person chooses to participate in a way that works for them, that's not really about what you have or have not done. I guess I can see where it might seem unfair, but these opportunities are open to everyone. If I decide to enter a live competition, pay for gas, spend they day at the trial site, and do my run at a live event, that's my choice. I'd hardly find it sporting to ridicule someone else for choosing to do Cyber Rally instead of doing what I have chosen to do.

 

Granted, that's just me. I get that there are those who do not share that perspective.

 

Maybe there are those who feel that those who work from home should not get paychecks because they are not commuting to an office every day. Maybe there are those that feel that those who take online college courses shouldn't get credits because they are not sitting in a classroom. Cyber dog sport events are similar. And yes, people are now able to earn titles this way.

 

I hate to say it..but LIVE competition seperated the "men from the boys" so to speak people......It tests your ultimate talent as a trainer to prepare your dog and your dogs talent as well...

 

If your ultimate standard is that your dog can do something specifically in a live competition setting, then it makes sense that you view it that way.

 

. . . but I think most of it is the excuses of the owner. And most people who will do these "video" competitions are people that for whatever reason can't cut it LIVE and want to title chase..

 

Ultimately, that really is the decision of the owner. What you see as an "excuse" the person who is actually walking in his or her own shoes might know to be something quite different.

 

And honestly, even if someone would just rather train, handle, and work on titles by video, I don't really have a problem with it.

 

The bottom line to me is building a good working relationship between dog and handler, good training, enjoyment of the activity at hand, and the benefits to both dog and handler. No live audience required for that.

[stockdogranch]

Coming to this topic a bit late, but I also find the idea of video titles to be a bit ridiculous. If this is the case:

 

I work with quite a lot of people who have dogs that, due to temperament issues that are beyond the dog's control, will never be able to be present at live events with other dogs.

then, why try to "compete" with such dogs? Work with them, enjoy the hell out of working with them at home (where they are safe and not in a position to have "issues"), and have FUN! After all, Kristine, you say it's all about having fun with your dogs, right? Maybe not every dog is cut out for competition. That's not saying those dogs are in any way "inferior," just that they do not have what it takes to be competitive. Why can't people just enjoy the dog for who it is? Why insist on getting some sort of title (I'm SURE the dog doesn't give a rat's ass about any title) so everyone can feel great about their training accomplishments? Accept the dog for who s/he is and be done with it.

 

I come from the stockworking world, and there are plenty of good dogs out there who can work all day at home but may not have what it takes to compete. So? Leave that one home!

 

I also teach at a university and deal with freshman all the time. Not every student there is college material, either. Doesn't make them lesser human beings, just not suited for college. So let them go some other route to find a career path. If we followed the video title logic with those students, they could just stay home and tell me they can write like Faulkner, gain their degrees and become famous, right?

A

[Root Beer]

then, why try to "compete" with such dogs? Work with them, enjoy the hell out of working with them at home (where they are safe and not in a position to have "issues"), and have FUN!

 

It's quite simple, actually. For many, it is fun to work toward titles. It gives the team focus, goals, and milestones to work toward.

 

In addition, video sports give the owners of such dogs the opportunity to share them with others. I know that might not seem like such a big thing, but to some it is an added draw. Yes, one can enjoy one's dog at home and never show anyone else what that dog can do. Yet, some enjoy showing others - who share a common interest - that dog's performances.

 

I love to watch videos of dogs doing Freestyle (and I will with Rally) that would not have the opportunity if live events were the only option. I appreciate the time and work that the owners have put into training and in putting a good video together. I especially appreciate the commitment that the owner has put into a dog that many would say isn't worth it. And I appreciate the chance to watch the dogs do something that I enjoy doing with my own dogs. And when the dog is visibly enjoying the game (whatever that may be), I absolutely love to watch those videos.

 

And there are many others who share that appreciation.

 

After all, Kristine, you say it's all about having fun with your dogs, right? Maybe not every dog is cut out for competition.

 

No, every dog is not. And every handler is not interested.

 

But for those who are, but cannot take advantage of live events for any reason whatsoever, I'd say it's a good thing that cyber options are becoming more and more readily available.

 

Nobody has to do it. Not everyone is going to want to do it. And for some dogs, it won't be appropriate. But it's an opportunity for those who are interested and whose dogs can enjoy it.

 

Have you never had a dog who loved to work in front of the camera? It is a true joy to do video work with such a dog.

 

That's not saying those dogs are in any way "inferior," just that they do not have what it takes to be competitive.

 

Perhaps not in a more "traditional" format. But in a world where one can take college classes online, telecommute, and have deep and lasting friendships with people that one only knows from an internet forum, now there is a brand new way for many of these dogs to, in fact, be competitive. Technology has now provided the format where new things are possible. I'd say that's a good thing.

 

Why can't people just enjoy the dog for who it is?

 

Why must enjoying a dog for who he or she is and working on titles be mutually exclusive? I can say unequivocally that I enjoy my dogs for who they are. I love them deeply just for being them. I appreciate their companionship more than I could ever say. And I can honestly say that every friend that I have who also enjoys participating in dogs sports (I am speaking of the people that I know personally) appreciates their dogs for who they are, as well.

 

I also enjoy training them, playing various sports with them, and, yes, working on titles with them. And I enjoy working on titles through both live events and video formats.

 

If the dog enjoys the activity, and is comfortable working in front of the camera, what, exactly, about filming Rally runs, or Agility runs, or Freestyle performances, or whatever sport offers a video event format next, renders the dog unappreciated for his or her own sake?

 

It's not like there is something about keeping a dog, and his or her activities, hidden, that makes the dog somehow more appreciated for his or her own sake.

 

Why insist on getting some sort of title (I'm SURE the dog doesn't give a rat's ass about any title) so everyone can feel great about their training accomplishments? Accept the dog for who s/he is and be done with it.

 

If doing that makes you happy, then go for it.

 

Others enjoy having training and performance goals and working toward titles.

 

Yes, there is a sense of accomplishment that comes with earning titles. But working toward titles also serves as motivation to stay on task with training (especially since most people who train dogs for sports have full time jobs, families, etc.), it enhances training skills, and it usually leads to a stronger bond and working relationship between dog and handler.

 

I also teach at a university and deal with freshman all the time. Not every student there is college material, either. Doesn't make them lesser human beings, just not suited for college. So let them go some other route to find a career path. If we followed the video title logic with those students, they could just stay home and tell me they can write like Faulkner, gain their degrees and become famous, right?

 

Interesting comparison. In fact, college courses are offered now where students can work from home. The students still do the work, but they don't sit in a traditional classroom.

 

This option has, in fact, opened the possibility of a college degree up to those who live an in area where there is no college that offers a certain program, or who do better, for whatever reason, without having to attend classes in the traditional way. These opportunities are making it possible for some (no, not all) of those who fit into the category that you describe above, to be able to complete a college course successfully. And really, who is anyone to tell those people that they shouldn't?

 

No, college is not for everyone. But if someone needs, or just plain prefers, to complete college through an online program now, he or she can.

 

Video dog sport events are similar. Criteria is set, rules are put in place, and people train, practice, and prepare, create their videos, submit, and there you go.

 

I gave the example earlier of my senior Freestyle partner, who can no longer physically handle the long days in the car, or crated, at the live shows. He and I thoroughly enjoy being able to continue to participate by video. He adores working in front of the camera, and he loves having the chance to continue dance, and it is actually a real performance (yes, he knows the difference between a real performance and practice, whether that performance is on video or live). If he is having a blast, I am continuing to enjoy the sport through this medium, and he is 100% appreciated for who he is at home (believe me, he is), then seriously - what's the problem?

 

If it's because one feels that the titles are somehow "less real", I can tell you from experience that they are not. We work just as hard for the video events, it is not a cake walk where points are given away on a platter, and there is more than sufficient challenge - especially with a senior dog who simply does not need to be at a live event all day. He has moved way beyond having to prove anything - in fact, I am now proving to him that I appreciate everything he has been all these years. Participation in video events is a gift that I can give to a loyal working partner who still finds joy in what we do as a team in the ring.

 

It seems to me that the whole objection surrounding the Cyber Rally option, and video titling in general, is based on what some of you feel should or should not be important to other people. The bottom line is that what is worthwhile, or of value, to an individual, is really up to that individual. Especially when it comes to something that the naysayers haven't done, and have no interest in doing.

 

There are people who are already enjoying the heck out of Cyber Rally. There is no other sport that includes many of the 2nd and 3rd level exercises, so it's appeal extends far beyond being able to film in a location that is workable for both dog and handler. While training a dog to work on both left and right, to and to do unique exercises that can be found absolutely no place else, doesn't appeal to those to whom it does not appeal, does anyone really expect those who find the venture interesting and enjoyable to consider it of no value? That's pretty much not going to happen.

[Flamincomet]

Geez, what is with everyone's negative and rude attitudes towards this? What ever happened to having fun with your dog being the most important thing? Who cares if you think it's "easy" or a scam, YOU are not every body, and every body has different needs and desires.

 

Personally video competitions appeal to me, due to recently becoming more ill and disabled, live trials at the current time are unrealistic for me. I am working towards being able to compete at live shows, and I see this (personally) as a great first stepping stone where I don't have to worry about panic attacks or becoming unexpectedly ill and losing my entry fees, while still getting feedback on how I am doing and building confidence.

 

What exactly is wrong with that?

[SS Cressa]

So am curious... are there classes for cyber sports? I thinks some of the requirements look fun or could be very useful. Also this could be a great way to test your dog on if it is ready to compete. You could still feel some pressure of a competition without everything else that goes into competition. Also Don't know how much it cost to enter but could be cheaper then gas. Lol (I can see both side!)

 

I want to eventually do some rally or obedience with my furkids and if this was cheaper then a trial... I could see myself definitely using it to see if my dog is at that level yet for competition.

 

 

I don't know all the requirements for abca rom program but isn't part of it to video tape a run and send it to a board of people for their approval?

[alligande]

NADAC has just started to offer virtual trials, I gather they will post new courses every week and you submit a video via YouTube. I think their thinking is that clubs will offer this as an option as it less expensive than holding a real trial. Of course agility requires a large field and regulation equipment so participation is still limited.

[Root Beer]

NADAC has just started to offer virtual trials, I gather they will post new courses every week and you submit a video via YouTube. I think their thinking is that clubs will offer this as an option as it less expensive than holding a real trial. Of course agility requires a large field and regulation equipment so participation is still limited.

 

COOL!!! I'll have to look into that for Dean.

 

I love all of these new opportunities!

[Root Beer]

So am curious... are there classes for cyber sports?

 

Not yet, but it is being talked about.

 

I'd love to have a "cyber sport" class and cover Dogs Can Dance, Cyber Rally, and the VALOR Project.

 

Online classes are being discussed, as well, but I don't think anything exists yet.

 

I thinks some of the requirements look fun or could be very useful. Also this could be a great way to test your dog on if it is ready to compete. You could still feel some pressure of a competition without everything else that goes into competition. Also Don't know how much it cost to enter but could be cheaper then gas. Lol (I can see both side!)

 

It is definitely cheaper than the cost of travel.

 

I plan to do this with Tessa before we start regular live competition. It will be a great way to "gel" as a team before we start to go to live events. Going in with a title or two will help get us past quite a lot of the "green-ness" of those first few trials.

 

And for a retired dog who simply enjoys playing on occasion, it is a Godsend.

[Root Beer]

Personally video competitions appeal to me, due to recently becoming more ill and disabled, live trials at the current time are unrealistic for me. I am working towards being able to compete at live shows, and I see this (personally) as a great first stepping stone where I don't have to worry about panic attacks or becoming unexpectedly ill and losing my entry fees, while still getting feedback on how I am doing and building confidence.

 

What exactly is wrong with that?

 

That makes perfectly good sense to me. I hope you do try it!