Ollysmom Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I guess this is something I should be asking my instructor, and I have... but its getting really frustrating! This is regarding my 6 month old bc pup I have enrolled in obedience classes. So he does a wonderful job at home. Does all the "homework" assignments perfectly and we have fun, and I love training him. But in class.... A nightmare He only listens to the instructors aka the "new fun people." He'll do anything for a new person- treats or not. New person says down and he collapses to the floor for a pet. And if he's not paying attention to the instructors its the other dogs in the room. I could be running circles, jumping up and down, trying to be as exciting as possible in class and he will just not pay attention to me. It makes me look as if I haven't been practicing at home. I train for short and long intervals throughout the day, everyday. The instructor will see me having a hard time getting his attention and walk over, demonstrate with him (of course he does it immediately) hand him back and he's back to not paying attention. They tell me to show him the treats, say his name, make a click or kiss sound. I do. Not listening to me. They don't understand that these noises work for them because my dog will obey anyone new. I feel like they think I'm not cut out for a border collie. He just ignores me. He also has to wear a gentle leader in class because of his prey drive and his need to control other dogs during the recall session. Well he absolutely loathes this thing. As soon as its on its just pouting time and learning commands becomes not so much fun. Am I worrying too much? I think he can feel that I get anxious in class. Today when we came home, I waited a while and gave him another session. He wasn't as "into" it as he normally is so we cut it short. Have any of you had this problem before? Oh yeah. One more thing, the command he was actually doing in class for me was stay/down on command. Well they said he rolls too much. *heart sank when I heard that* Like he's laying on one of his hips and that I need to fix that so he can stand quicker. How do I fix that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 To fix the down reshape it into something new. Just pretend he doesn't know the command and reteach it only clicking for the desired position , not the roll. As for the head halter. How about trying to use it as a "when the head halter goes on, it mean were going to be doing fun stuff" shape him wearing the hh like anything else. Click and treat for him putting his nose through the loop, treat for the clicking action, for interation, for putting it tighter, for walking, everything! And tugging in it too! Make that sucker an association of when the hh goes on it's fun time! Maybe that will even help his listening in class with the association. Perhaps he's bored? He's doing the things for the new person because it's exciting? You said he does fine at home so the behaviours dont seem to be the problem.. How about while you wait your turn, or during idle time shape new behaviors, not the boring basic stuff. And save the super High value treats and toys for class only. Shape anything and everything, increase this dogs tricks repertoire. And when it comes time for the boring stuff he wont do with you you don't overdo it, there's no need to do 10 downs during a puppy class. How about down-tug, spruce everything up. Also create a motivational toy at home but rarely let him see it outside of class, only for the moments rodeo force the idea of how awesome that toy is (therefore hopefully wanting to work for it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Also! Start practicing everywhere, class is almost a set up for failure for a young dog. New people, new atmosphere, new dogs, toys, treats... Wow talk about upping the distraction meter way too quickly!! So start taking tour dog everywhere with you and train everywhere. So he knows down means down ALL the time. No screwing around in class. But also remember his age, take it slow, he's a baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 One more thought... ( the edit button doesn't seem to be working on my phone) since listening to new people seems tO be working, he's ultimately seeking a reward in new interactions. I would place a price on getting to see new people. -- dog must perform for you before getting to get the reward of a new person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollysmom Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Thanks guys I'm going to start training him on walks, at the park and other peoples houses. First lets see how we do in the front yard. (He's a car chaser, also why it was recommended he wear the gentle leader)The reason I haven't been training anywhere is because the instructors haven't really told us to. The class I am in doesn't really mention using toys so I'm going to ask the instructor about it. He's extremely toy driven. His pupils get wide and he'll do anything you ask of him. He's also yogurt driven . (only give him a little, don't want to upset his tummy) so I'm going to start by making this gentle leader business fun for him. Me being in control of whether he gets to see the new person is also a great idea. I wonder how that'll go over with the instructors because they like to use him for every demonstration when teaching the class something new. He is the youngest in the class... also the only puppy in the class. Also, is it possible for a border collie to be taught not to try and herd certain things? Like cars, cats and other dogs? Sometimes I read its impossible, other places I read its doable. But nothing I've read has said how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 If it wasn't possible for a BC not to herd things than there is no way they could excel like they do at sports. I would ask the instructor to stop using him for demos right now and work on your relationship with the dog. With the internet, youtube, blogs, forums there is so much information right now out there, so put a lot of research into it, how to build a positive relationship with your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Welcome to adolescence. Seriously though, consider that in class, you as his handler get kind of wound up because he's being a dork. A stranger comes over, catches his attention because they are different, they get him to do the behavior and he gets a treat. Woot! These strangers are more fun than mad old Mom! So, try relaxing and pay close attention to your own emotions, if you find yourself getting tense and frustrated, there's no doubt that is transmitting down the leash and that will cause him to ignore you because he's anxious about it. What does a dog do when he is feeling stressed and anxious? Turn away from the stressful thing and act like it doesn't exist. That usually appeases adult dogs, so maybe it will appease you? Add to that he's a baby dog, and has the attention span of a gnat and there you go. I would nicely refrain from others taking him and just be patient, breath, relax your face and shoulders and be liberal with reinforcement, and he will soon figure it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaporflowers Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I MUCH prefer the Easy Walk Harness to the head halter... it works on a similar principle and is made my the same company as the Gentle Leader, but the dogs don't have to get used to it. It doesn't have the same precise level of management, but it gets the job done most of the time. I'm a big fan of changing directions for lack of attention. Sometimes I practice "lunges"... start with a dog in a sit, tell the dog to "walk" or "heel" or "with me" or whatever, take a step... if during that one step, I don't have the dog's attention, I take off running in the opposite direction. I let the dog correct themselves on the end of the lead... I might give a little light pop to help get their attention. As the dog catches up to me, I lower a treat down to my left side (where I want the dog), so they have a treat waiting for them. I don't use harsh verbal corrections... I have a very "Oops, what happened" kind of attitude when they find themselves going the wrong direction. (Note: I would NEVER recommend doing this with a head collar) The response I'm looking for is that we can take a step and the dog looks back at me expectantly because they think I'm going to run away. I treat and praise heavily (jackpot) for that response... then as soon as I lose attention, I'm taking off the opposite way again. I'm not looking for precise attention when I start this exercise... just for the dog to keep an eye on me. Any smart dog tends to anticipate, and by being more unpredictable, the dog has to figure out that attention is the only thing that "works" and they'll choose to give attention more often. Kissy noises and happy voices are fine, but the dog has you "figured out". Once the dog is working better with "unpredictability", I also start using the come command around distractions. I call the dog to come once on a loose lead, if they choose to remain engaged with the distraction, I take off running again. I never reel them in on a tight leash; they have to choose to come. When they do, they get a treat, and get to go back to their distraction (a smelly bush, another dog they want to visit, a person they want pets from, whatever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 How long have you had him? To me it sounds like a relationship issue -- As in, it doesn't sound like you have much of one. How often is he allowed to find his own reinforcement? How fun are you? Maybe you have totally burnt him out, since you say you 'practice for short & long intervals, all day every day'. When he behaves so beautifully for your instructors, are they using their treats? Could their treats be better than what you have, thus getting his attention? In the past we had a discussion on this board about treat "value." Some people think that if a dog works for kibble at home, they will work for kibble everywhere -- But that is obviously not the case. Maybe you need to step up your treats in class for a bit. Keep using the lower value treats at home since it apparently works for you, but bring out the big guns (steak, liver, etc) when in a distracting group setting. Pay your dog handsomely in class -- far more than you would at home. Your dog very well could be feeding off your anxiety. Stop worrying so much about what other people think of you. You have a young what sounds like a motion-sensitive border collie puppy -- You aren't necessarily going to have as easy of a time as, say, the two year old Golden Retriever in the class. The important part is that things ARE going well at home. That is a start! Classes are not the place to come and "show off" all of the amazing things your brilliant puppy can do -- Classes are the distracting environment you use to proof the brand new things your dog is learning at home. Bravo to you for working at home, because many people don't -- and then they come to class and try to teach their dog these brand new things and get horribly discouraged because their dog can't learn in that environment. Absolutely move your practice sessions around to new locations. Parks, stores that allow dogs, on the street during walks, etc. But do give some thought to how often you are doing these training sessions. Sit and wait for dinner, yes -- But I never come home from a class and expect my dog to give me a training session. Even if he was a naughty brat the entire night, the evening was still mentally draining for him. Regarding the "rolling on his hip" in the down stay -- Sounds like this is a formal obedience class. Maybe you need a bit more of a basic pet class until he grows up a bit more (unless formal obedience is your goal, then by all means teach him correctly from the start). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Does your 6 month old puppy ever get to be a puppy? I see that he is expected to train in obedience with adult dogs (why do your instructors even allow you to do this kind of training with a baby dog? Why aren't they insisting you go to puppy classes instead and let your baby dog be a baby dog?), and I see that he gets multiple long and short obedience sessions a day, but when he does he get to goof off and be a puppy a learn how to be a well adjusted adult dog with a variety of non-structured experiences under his belt? Your whole post made me sad. I think puppies deserve to be puppies. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I don't think it's fair to assume the puppy doesn't get to be a puppy based on the OPs post, it was about a training problem, she never said the pup leads nothing but a super structured life. The training shouldn't be lOng intervals, but Personally I would be training for short intervals all day, everyday starting from day 1 with every puppy. And I do. Doesn't mean my dogs don't get to be puppies, I think to turn into a well adjusted dog that can function in our strict society you need to be doing LOTS of work before adolescence. You just have to remember that work always needs to = fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollysmom Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 A mixed reply to all- I don't believe puppies shouldn't not be trained because they need to be puppies. That's crazy. But that doesn't mean I don't let him be a puppy! I think if anything it strengthens the bond between puppy and owner. Trust me he gets to be a puppy PLENTY of the time. My post was about training and not his everyday life as a puppy, we (me and him) are having lots of fun with his puppy days and will continue to have fun/goof around even in his adult days. It must sound like I try to train for hours everyday which is not the case. Collectively in one day I think it adds up to about 30 minutes. I try to make training as fun as possible. Like with the recall, I will have someone hold him and I'll go run and hide with a yogurt treat. He loves this game and he's getting good at it. I'm running out of hiding spots I do believe I have a good relationship with him. I'd like to think so at least. I am his only caretaker- the one who feeds, plays, walks, and trains him. I have had him since he was 9 weeks old. I definitely have the energy to keep up with him and I spend a great amount of time with him everyday. He follows me everywhere. The treats I use are exactly the same as the instructors. So maybe I have burnt him out with training, it's just been drilled into my mind that the more you train the better. I'll take it down a notch. This bored/burnt out idea crossed my mind when I came back after the class and tried to train him. So I've made sessions short and fast-paced. I've started playing ball or tug with him right after every little training session so he knows after he gets to play. They can be 3-5 minutes long. Sometimes even just for a minute. He was not put in the puppy class because it was full and the instructor believed he could handle the Family dog class. The other dogs don't have to learn the difference between a "rolling" down and just a down. They have high expectations of him since he's a border collie, I need to remind them that he's just a baby. Also, I have been taking him to other places and training him the past few days as some of you suggested. He's doing great with it on walks especially. I don't just stop and train in one spot for 5 minutes either. I'll walk a ways and then just ask him to do something and he gets lots of treats/praise for it and then we keep walking. I understand everyone has their own methods of training and of course a lot of people believe the way they do it is the only correct way. I just want idea's on how to get/keep his attention in class. Thanks to those who have answered! And...What kind of border collie is not motion sensitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollysmom Posted October 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Well good news- I've been following everyones advice and he did wonderful today in class. He paid more attention to me than he did the instructors! (a relief) He hardly got distracted compared to the last class and he did every command willingly with a wagging tail. He was getting somewhat antsy at the end of class so as soon as it was over we went and ran around in the fields next to the training studio (Don't really know what to call it) He's been sticking to me like velcro since we came home. Maybe I still smell like hotdogs? I can only hope next class will go just as smoothly but he's just a baby as you all said so I won't get discouraged again if it goes badly. Thanks for the advice everyone. One thing was a tad embarrassing- a new assistant instructor was there today and she thought I was really, really young. As an example for getting him to wait at entrances- she said pretend I'm stopping him from getting my favorite dolly. ... I am an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maja Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 she said pretend I'm stopping him from getting my favorite dolly.... I am an adult. :lol: :lol: That's a good one! Congratulations on your success! maja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChantalB Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hahahaha too funny about the dolly!! Congrats and jeep up the work. I'm assuming it's an hour long class, thAts a long time for a baby to focus, so don't be afraid of leaving early, or taking a 5 minute halfway break to go outside and run around. Keep us updated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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