scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Does anyone know the official name for the pro nounced knot kind of thing on a BC head I was told its called a knowledge knot but is this true What I am talking about is this like pronounced area at the forefront that makes head kind of pointy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Frontal Bones. Wolves (and African Hunting Dogs) have inflated frontal bones, probably due to the importance of facial expression in these highly social species. Domestic dogs have inherited this trait strongly (see below, and Fox), which is useful in separating them from many wild canids. (from www.skullsite.co.uk) If you are talking about what I think you are talking about, then the above explanation may help. Now, my question is do you have a photo of what you are talking about? In my experience, working-bred dogs do not tend to have very pronounced "stops" (the stop is the place where the forehead ends and the muzzle begins, that is most noticeable in the heavy-headed, show-bred sort of dog). You may notice this characteristic in pictures of many show-bred dogs and, of course, there are occasional working-bred dogs that exhibit this particular conformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Frontal Bones. Wolves (and African Hunting Dogs) have inflated frontal bones, probably due to the importance of facial expression in these highly social species. Domestic dogs have inherited this trait strongly (see below, and Fox), which is useful in separating them from many wild canids. (from www.skullsite.co.uk) If you are talking about what I think you are talking about, then the above explanation may help. Now, my question is do you have a photo of what you are talking about? In my experience, working-bred dogs do not tend to have very pronounced "stops" (the stop is the place where the forehead ends and the muzzle begins, that is most noticeable in the heavy-headed, show-bred sort of dog). You may notice this characteristic in pictures of many show-bred dogs and, of course, there are occasional working-bred dogs that exhibit this particular conformation. My BC is a rehome so I hve no lineage to go by I can tell you if you see him hes straight herding theres none of the blocky show type dog going on with him I was just curious about it as i took him to a herding clinic and was told by several that its called a knowledge knot and is desirable my vet of course has never mentioned it being a medical issue so I thought it was just a BC thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Do you mean on the top of the head, like between the ears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Do you mean on the top of the head, like between the ears? yes its in that area i am not sure if you can tell in the photo i attached Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 yes its in that area i am not sure if you can tell in the photo i attached well i cannot see in the pic but you can atleast see how handsome he is ha ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I can't tell from that photo, but I think I understand the area you're talking about. Our lab mix actually has the most pronounced bump there, more so than my border collies. Anyway, I've actually never heard it referred to as anything. I think the people who called it a knowledge knot were just trying to be cute or something. Kind of like the people who call the white spot on Alex's back a "trouble spot". You know what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Since I think he is an undeveloped genius will go with that! thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Scullywags, they are "Knowledge Knots" ... and don't let anyone confuse you with piddly things, like scientific facts or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 That's a whole different story. Here's what Wikipedia says about the sagittal crest, the primary purpose of it being attachment of jaw muscles: A sagittal crest is a ridge of bone running lengthwise along the midline of the top of the skull (at the sagittal suture) of many mammalian and reptilian skulls, among others. The presence of this ridge of bone indicates that there are exceptionally strong jaw muscles. The sagittal crest serves primarily for attachment of the temporalis muscle, which is one of the main chewing muscles. Development of the sagittal crest is thought to be connected to the development of this muscle. A sagittal crest usually develops during the childhood of an animal in conjunction with the growth of the temporalis muscle, as a result of convergence and gradual heightening of the temporal lines. A sagittal crest tends to be present on the skulls of adult animals that rely on powerful biting and clenching of their teeth, usually as a part of their hunting strategy. Skulls of some dinosaur species, including tyrannosaurs, possessed well developed sagittal crests. Among mammals, dogs, cats, lions, and many other carnivores have sagittal crests, as do some leaf eaters, including tapirs and some apes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Scullywags, they are "Knowledge Knots" ... and don't let anyone confuse you with piddly things, like scientific facts or anything. I kind of took it as some herders folklure type thing and that there was some neat story to it figured if i posted about it someone would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 A sagittal crest is a ridge of bone running lengthwise along the midline of the top of the skull... .... ::yawn:: .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 There are alot of these stories in horses. Whorls being a big one. Where they are and which way they go and how they were shaped. Old Pop was embarassing to take out to look at horses to buy. He was a great horseman, but if a horse had a specific whorl he would not hesitate to say something like....."Lady that horse has a cursed mark." This could cause problems. The only sheepdog ones I have heard is the three whiskers under the chin and the bump on the head one. Also roof of the mouth being black. And eye color ones. And those spots above the eyes. But To be honest....I have not found they are acurate. Just watch the dog work. If he works good, he is good. However they are fun to hear about. My Old Pop knew alot of them....He was a character! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Huh, Farleigh has a very pronounced bump/saggital crest. He's a biter. Interesting to note that the proniunced saggital crest could indicate very strong jaw muscles. Figures that would go with the dog who might bite you.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Hum?? That might explain Old Gunny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I've always heard that the bump or knot on the top of a dog's head was considered an indicator of intelligence; the more pronounced the bump the more intelligent the dog. I believe it's just an old wives’ tale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I have heard them called "wisdom bumps" and they have nothing to do with the dogs intelligence. I have seen them on a few boxers, not sure if they are more common in other breeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Nearly all rough/ smooth Collies have them. Lots of Doberman Pinschers too. I've seen then on lots of the hound breeds and I had a friend who had a Deerhound with a bump so pronounced you could hang your hat on it. My Lurcher had one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I've always heard that the bump or knot on the top of a dog's head was considered an indicator of intelligence; the more pronounced the bump the more intelligent the dog. I believe it's just an old wives tale. Yes, I was told the same thing by a friend when I lived in TN. I think he called it a smart bump, or something. The bigger the bump, the smarter the dog. Of course, he wasn't serious. It's just considered an old wive's tale (tail?). I think another old wive's tale that he told me was that if a cat hair lands on you the right way, it'll grow there. ETA: The bump he was referring to was the sagtital crest on the top of the head (where jaw muscles attach). So, I don't think that's the same bump that you are referring to. But, I'm sure the bump has moved around as the tale as been passed from one person to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Well, Lilly has the biggest bump of all my dogs, and though she's no dummy, she is not the smartest in our house. Oh, and for what it's worth, we do have a name for her bump, it's officially called "The Bean". Any of you may use that term, if you'd like. You know you want to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Our cattledog (heelers) had the most pronounced bumps, not so much in our border collies but I've not really paid attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I currently have a foster dog, Penny, and the best guess regarding her lineage is border collie mixed with a larger, white fluffy dog (maybe a Pyr?). Who knows what she is, but she is a sweet dog. (And she should be going to her new home within a week!!) When I read this thread, I was thinking that my BC did not have the sagittal crest, but I was interested nevertheless. Imagine my surprise when I was petting Penny's head tonight, and I felt a pronounced raised ridge, about 3-4" long, lengthwise between the ears. If I am understanding the definition of the SC correctly, she definitely has one. FWIW, she is a very powerful chewer and has destroyed several toys that I previously thought were indestructible - a Kong being the least strong of them. Here is a photo of Penny: Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bn_here_b4 Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Jody, my Border Collie, has a pronounced knot on top and he is a very smart boy. Bella, my Golden Retriever, has a head that is flat and smooth as a board. Hmmmm... Bella does have a great personality and beautiful hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 so out of curiousity since I never paid attention, I had to check my dogs and compare to their chewing lol I actually had a opposite results as far as strong jaws...my 2 weakest chewers have the 2 most pronounced SC's, my 2 strongest chewers have the 2 least pronounced(I can actually barely find them for looking) SC's intelligence...well that does kind of corrolate with my guys lol. facial expressions though, my 2 with the most pronounced SC's have 2 face expressions...mouth open and mouth closed. no matter what they do that always look the same. my 2 with the barely findable SC's are far and away the most expressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 If you can feel the saggital crest easily then the muscles are smaller. Strong chewers have larger muscles and so the bone isn't easily felt. I've always referred to the Occipital Crest as the knowledge knot (it is on the top/back of the skull in the middle behind the ears). The term is usually in jest because Irish Setters & Great Danes seem to have very large "knowledge knots" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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