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Hi again,

 

It always amazes me how people (especially those in business to make money selling puppies) misrepresent the facts regarding the dogs that they are promoting. The statement that their stud dog won the "Irish Shepherds Nationals" is a deviation from the truth, as the "Irish Shepherds Nationals" doesn't exist.

 

 

Regards,

nancy

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What amazes me is that people are willing to shell out that much money without doing a little research. If they did they would find pups from good working bred litters that cost half as much.

 

There is a sucker born every minute.

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Why do people have to inflate to this extent though. All this is pretty much verifiable via the net, it's not like you can't research. I asked as I wondered originally if people believe what they're told or ask for hard copy documentation for things like OFA and Cerf or DNA papers. Not expecting to find (or not find) what has been uncovered in this case. Wish this was the only case....

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I keep trying to think of a good answer, one that makes sense, but I find myself unable to do so.

 

There are people I trust. If they say a dog has passing scores I will believe them, but if I buy a pup I generally like to have a copy of the parents' results for my own records.

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FWIW, the breeder whose link I've removed wrote me back and said that It's held inside the irish nationals and that when he bought Brock, he was told it was called the farmers national.

 

By the way, he said he looked on link I sent him (to this thread), and he doesn't appreicate being refered to as the breeder that is misrespresenting their dog for the money. He said he doesn't need the advertisement that the one is afraid that he would get if he were to come on there. He said that he thinks it is very sad and hurts deeply to see people talking about him that dont have a clue who he is, and that if the name is misrepresented, that it wasnt on purpose of any gain for Brock. He is only going on what he is told. Said he has worked many years building the lines he has, and he has been working to put together lines that can produce nice working dogs with great temperaments.

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But seriously, if someone has worked many years to build their lines of *working* border collies, wouldn't they know something about the history of the dogs, including things like the various Nationals held in the UK, especially if they're using imported dogs? I guess not. It says a lot, though, that the breeder didn't bother to check the veracity of the claims made by the person who sold him the dog in the first place, but instead just repeated that information on a website selling puppies. Like it or not, it's reminiscent of the practices of MAH and her ilk, where the claim to fame for all the pups produced is Int'l Supreme winners and the like back in the pedigree and not what the dog itself has done or can do. I didn't see this guy's website, so perhaps he also had current information that detailed the useful working ability of his dogs, but I often find that those who choose to tout the wins/performances of ancestors alone have a different agenda than those who detail current information.

 

And I don't know if this is the same guy or not, but SERIOUSLY if you are advertising pups on puppy sites all over the Internet, you are a BAD breeder. I wouldn't believe for a minute that a breeder advertising in such a way is really concerned about working ability of his lines. He's in the business of selling puppies, period. MAH springs to mind yet again....

 

J.

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Hello everyone,

 

Just a quick note for now, and I will write more later.

 

I think that it would be an easy task to copy the accurate information regarding the dog in question from the seller's website (where it is correctly listed, as verified through the ISDS website), rather than depend on memory when adding it to the new owner's website.

 

Regards,

nancy

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From the ISDS rules:

 

4.2 QUALIFYING TRIALS FOR THE INTERNATIONAL SUPREME (SINGLES)

 

(including the Farmer's Championship, the Shepherd's Championship and the Team Prize)

 

a. This trial consists of 15 dogs each from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

 

b. This Trial is primarily to select the 15 highest pointed dogs, in order of merit, representing England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales respectively, to enter the Supreme Championship. A travelling reserve shall be the 16 dog. In addition, the top dog owned and handled by a Farmer in those trials will be entitled to the Farmer's Championship and the top dog owned and handled by a Hired Shepherd will be entitled to the Shepherd's Championship.

 

c. This Trial will also decide the Team Prize.

 

d. Each competitor shall be awarded the cash prize which he/she is entitled to by virtue of his/her position in the list, but only a Farmer shall be entitled to the Farmer's Cup and only a Hired Shepherd shall be entitled to the Shepherd's Trophy

 

 

 

Yep, seems like people should do a little homework before accusing other people of misrepresenting themselves.

 

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Guest carol campion

From the ISDS rules:

 

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Yep, seems like people should do a little homework before accusing other people of misrepresenting themselves.

 

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Thanks you for posting that, Pearse. My sentiments exactly.

 

Without a lot of effort, it was easy to find that Brock did indeed win a number of open trials in Ireland and won the Rumivite Cup, which I assume is the Irish National Shepherd's Award.

 

IRISH NATIONAL TROPHIES - 2007

 

The Raine National Cup - James McGee and Becca (188 points and run off 188)

 

The Loughgiel Shield - James McGee and Becca

 

The Royal Dublin Society Trophy - Becca (Bred by Tommy Doherty)

 

Rumivite Cup - Peter Concannon and Brock (154 pts)

 

S O'Leary Trophy - Gerrard Egan (14 years old) and BenDavid

 

Forsythe Trophy - Liam Gallagher

 

Clonman Trophy - Aidan Gallagher and Bill

 

Irish Brace Challenge Cup - Joint - Con Mc Garry with Dan & Nell, and Dennis Birchall with Meg & Mossie

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Ah, the award is to the highest pointed dog or bitch handled by a shepherd. Not a trial or win, an award. Certainly nothing to disparage, though extremely misleading in how it was presented by the US owner IMO.

 

Thanks to all. I should have kept digging but had no clue the Rumivite Cup was also the Irish Shepherd National.

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Ah, the award is to the highest pointed dog or bitch handled by a shepherd. Not a trial or win, an award. Certainly nothing to disparage, though extremely misleading in how it was presented by the US owner IMO.

 

Thanks to all. I should have kept digging but had no clue the Rumivite Cup was also the Irish Shepherd National.

 

 

 

Don't be pedantic. The US owner clearly knew only slightly more about this than you do and was not intentionally misleading anyone.

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I am Janet Beale.

I hate these forums, people hide behind made-up names. Talking about people not there to defend themselves; thats rather cowardly?

Karen whoever you are; Nobody is perfect. I agree that if you display information it should be correct, but we all make mistakes. The person concerned made an honest mistake and in no way was he trying to SCAM anyone.

LizP: I agree that if you advertise a health test etc then the certification should be available to view ir requested.

Have any of you asked this person for health tests/ pedigree etc.? Condemned without a trial. I thought that in the USA you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Double standards ?

Julie: What does MAH mean? The problem is that He did not repeat the information or it would have been correct.

Almost all of us who own border collies are very passionate about what we do. But we may not be able to express ourselves in positive ways nor in ways that "please all of the people all of the time".

We have to be tolerant and read between the lines so we can find the true self hidden beneath.

Would it not be polite to phone the person you are so interested in maligning to find out more about them and their goals etc.

If you do not agree with them, TRY educating them in a nice way.

He genuinely loves his dogs and wants to learn more about sheepdogs and goes out of his way to help people, he has hosted many sheepdog training clinics, going out of his way to help has sometimes cost him.

 

I have attached the correct information about the dog concerned it is available in the ISDS stud books. Even, I myself, get confused with Shepherd v Farmers (in fact these Trophies at each of the UK's Nationals are awarded to the highest pointed handler/dog team in that category -they do not have to be in the top 15) and Precious few shepherds that compete nowadays. In its day it was a VERY prestigious award.

I myself was placed second with Brock in one of only four trials we competed in.

The person purchased Brock firstly to learn more about handling a sheepdog and secondly to breed good dogs.

You cannot get away from the fact that Brock is GENETICALLY the closest relative to one of modern trials TOP most consistant Sheepdogs EVER.

If you want to improve your stock you must go for the best you can find at whatever you can afford.

I have some fantastic youngsters Sired by Brock now 12 months old and Semen in storage thank god, because I believe I made a mistake in selling Brock, but only time will tell.

would it not be more enjoyable for all concerned to focus on Positive education and Helping people.

 

Do as you would be done by

Brock 264333.pdf

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Janet, in the USA we have a huge problem with puppy mills. Several high profile mills that produce Border Collies have been shut down or disciplined recently, including one owned by a woman with the initials MAH. They hide behind web pages to sell their pups. They falsify papers, lie about the accomplishments of the parents and keep their dogs in filthy conditions. I don't know about the situation in the UK, but this has left most breeders in the USA sad, frustrated and angry.

 

There is also a huge problem in the USA with high volume breeders who mate dogs based on papers alone. Many do honestly wish to produce good working dogs, but they don't know how to go about doing it. They don't even have enough experience working dogs to know how to tell a good one from a not so good one. The majority of the pups they sell turn out to be mediocre at best. This has given the farmers who buy them a very low opinion of the breed.

 

I do appreciate that the issue has been clarified. It does look like Brock has some working accomplishments.

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Janet, in the USA we have a huge problem with puppy mills. Several high profile mills that produce Border Collies have been shut down or disciplined recently, including one owned by a woman with the initials MAH. They hide behind web pages to sell their pups. They falsify papers, like about the accomplishments of the parents and keep their dogs in filthy conditions. I don't know about the situation in the UK, but this has left most breeders in the USA sad, frustrated and angry.

 

There is also a huge problem in the USA with high volume breeders who mate dogs based on papers alone. Many do honestly wish to produce good working dogs, but they don't know how to go about doing it. They don't even have enough experience working dogs to know how to tell a good one from a not so good one. The majority of the pups they sell turn out to be mediocre at best. This has given the farmers who buy them a very low opinion of the breed.

 

I do appreciate that the issue has been clarified. It does look like Brock has some impressive accomplishments.

We have a problem with Irish and Welsh puppy farms/mills.

But my answer to this is to educate the public. By advertising in all the papers where the public go to purchase their next Border Collie etc. an excerpt from one of my adverts. Please help reduce unwanted dogs: ONLY purchase puppies that are micro chipped by their breeder and registered with the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) and / or Kennel Club, this allows for full trace ability back to the breeder.

Should your circumstances change the breeder should be available to help you and your puppy throughout its lifetime by helping to re-home/rehabilitate your puppy. Full details are available on our website - FAQ pages.

(I screen my potential owners and many go by the wayside, but we can't always be right but we can learn from our mistakes.)

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I still don't understand why someone who is striving to breed excellent working dogs would be advertising pups on places like PuppyFind. I'm sorry if he's the nicest guy on the planet, hosts clinics, and is well-meaning and wants to learn more; all that doesn't change the fact that he *appears* to be operating like any other typical high-volume breeder. I have to wonder how well the breeder is screening potential clients when he advertises his pups on sites where you can "find the perfect puppy with the click of a button." Really, if he's hosting clinics and the like, he must know folks in the working border collie world. If he's importing great genetics, then why not make an effort to market his pups to the people who attend the clinics--folks who are truly interested in working dogs?

 

Janet,

Here in the US organizations have been trying to educate the public for years about puppy mills, backyard breeders, etc. All the education doesn't seem to have done much good though. And as someone else noted, MAH is a notorious breeder who has been removed from the ABCA because of her breeding practices. But guess what? She's got a lot of lovely imports in her lines (or at least she used to--I don't visit her site because it could send a person into epileptic fits). No one posts her name or website because to do so would give her free advertising that no one wants her to have.

 

J.

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