WHICH SHEEP???

[threejays farms]

Hi! My husband and I recently got into some sheep herding classes and clinics with our border collie. She's our second border...the first is 14 years old and retired, this one is young and she was a stray that showed up on our 100 acres in Texas. She's really good...so they say! We're wanting to purchase a small flock of sheep to work her at home (it's 1.5 hours to the trainer's). Any suggestions on hearty sheep that we can maybe even sell the wool from? I'm interested in Shetland Sheep, but don't know about their characteristcs for working dogs.

Any opionons greatly appreciated!

[Rave]

For more answers, you might want to try to ask your question on this forum instead, as there seems to be more farmer-types there: www.kensmuir.com

Good luck! I'm jealous, wish I had land to get stock!!

[Denise Wall]

Thanks a lot. I guess none of us on this board have sheep or are worthy of listening to.

[Eileen Stein]

How many are you thinking of getting? Would you be breeding them and lambing? This will affect the answer, because if you intend to just keep using the same sheep indefinitely your principal consideration would have to be sheep that take the longest to get "stale" in their behavior. A lot of people in Texas have hair sheep (because of the climate, probably), and in general hair sheep (such as barbadoes, St. Croix and katahdin) tend to stay fresh longer than wool sheep when worked a lot by dogs. On the other hand, they also tend to be light and very free moving, which can present problems of its own. There is a heavier type of hair sheep, called a dorper, and crosses of those with the lighter hair sheep might be appealing, especially if you'd be selling lambs for meat.

 

Wool prices are low and have been for quite a while, so unless you can develop a market with handspinners and can keep your sheep clean enough to appeal to them you might find your shearing costs and related expenses outweighing your wool income, which again makes hair sheep more appealing.

 

I do have a friend who has a handful of shetland sheep which she works along with her larger flock, and perhaps she will post about them. Also, Mike Neary, who is a sheep expert at Purdue, wrote a good article about "sheep for dogs" which you can find at http://www.littlehats.net/neary01.html .

 

Good luck!

[Deb]

Hi threejays,

 

Where are you located? If you are in the middle atlantic region of the US you might want to consider attending the Maryland Sheep & Wool Festival, May 1st & 2ed (Sat / Sun) at the Howard County Fairgrounds, near Columbia and Frederick Maryland.

 

There are Shepherd's classes, including one for beginners I believe, breed displays and a show, health talks (TSE, BSE & prion disease talks seem to be a big thing this year - as you would expect with recent events) and lots of friendly folks who'd love to share with you the benefits of thier particular breed. You will note after a few discussions that there appear to be no disadvantages to any breed...

 

There are also lots of other fun things to do, herding demonstrations, a herding workshop that Friday, etc. The url for their web site is: http://www.sheepandwoolfestival.org/

 

There you will find a complete list of events and times, what presentations are free, what have a small fee, the ones you must sign up for in advance, etc.

 

You may also run into more then one of us from 'the boards'...

 

Anyone else out there planning on attending?

[threejays farms]

Wow...ya'll are a great group...quick to respond too! Sorry I took so long to post back...I was working horses and doing barn chores. I rarely post on message boards; usually only when I see a good discussion and want to put my two cents in. Usually when I have a question, message boards don't help me answer it, but not this time! Thanks for all the input! Now I'll try to answer the questions:

Deb - I'm in Texas (think I mentioned this in my first post, but maybe not) so I appreciate the info, but Maryland looks like it won't happen.

rtphokie - Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

Eileen - Thanks so much for the information. We are thinking of a small flock..less than 10. We would most likely breed to replace the flock as needed. We have a friend right up the road that has a flock of ?Southdown Baby Doll? so we'll have sheepy friends if we get in a bind lambing and shearing. Ok, I might get kicked off here, but I am a softy!!! I can't raise any animals for meat. Believe me, I love a steak just as much as everyone else, but if it's on our farm and I feed it and care for it, I can't have it slaughtered nor can I sell an animal that will be for meat...lambs are so CUTE! I'd feel so guilty admiring them then letting them go to slaughter. This is why we raise horses! We only have chickens for eggs! Silly I know, but that's just me! This is why I really wish to have a wool flock or a rare breed that we can help improve. We're not too concerned with making a huge profit with the sheep. They will be beneficial "lawn mowers" and dog trainers, so as long as we don't put in lots more than we get out of them financially, we're ok. I am concerned about them getting too dog broke, but I don't know how we'll solve that problem! The trainer we've gone to offerred us up a small flock for market price and said they'd trade us when they get too heavy. We're fine with this, but I also feel that if I'm going to have sheep, why not get something that we like and that we're proud of? I don't feel they are disposable like some herding people do...I think all the animals on our place are a part of a continuous cycle and each serves a variety of purposes. Other breeds I'm drawn to are Leicester, Cheviot, California Variegated Mutant, Corriedale, Romeldale, Tunis and Targhee. There are many Merino breeders in South Texas, but I'm not too sure about this breed. We also don't plan to spend our savings on these sheep!

Well, I've written a book!!! Thanks again for all the opinions!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Well, sheep just don't stay good for dog training indefinitely, so if dog training is your priority, your trainer's offer to let you trade in your used sheep sounds like a good one to me. Just to give the most basic example: If you gather sheep a lot, particularly with a young dog in training, after a while every time you send your dog to get the sheep they will begin running toward you as soon as they see the dog leave your feet. It's very hard to teach and maintain a good, covering outrun with sheep like that, because the dog (being a smart border collie ) will simply stop halfway out, wait til the sheep go by her on their way to you, and just tuck in behind. (That's at best -- at worst she will feel the pressure of them wanting to come toward you, and will cut in front of them out of a desire to control them and hold them.) This will teach her bad habits and have a tendency to spoil her for work with "real" sheep.

 

I don't want to sound too discouraging, but this is something you should at least consider before deciding what to do. It's not impossible to train a dog on stale sheep, but it's much tougher, especially if you're relatively new at the game. But you have to balance your own personal priorities, and maybe having sheep that become part of the family will win out over providing the best conditions for dog training.

 

All that said, I have some border leicester x cheviots which have proven to be quite satisfactory for dog training, and have very nice fleece as well. But a lot will depend on what types of sheep are available in your area. Be sure to check out Mike Neary's article -- I think you'll find it helpful. No matter what kind you get, it's great that you have sheepy neighbors who can help you with your new flock.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The best dogs come from farms where the sheep are raised towards some purpose - that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Even if it's just to produce lambs for dog training.

 

If you are working on managing a flock instead of drilling course elements, the sheep won't get sour as quickly - or not at all if you mix it up in how you get things done, and always work to the highest standard possible.

 

I'm afraid that the purpose of these dogs is essentially to help us raise healthy lambs for market. Up to the last century, wool was the focus of sheep production. Then it equalled meat quality in importance. Now meat so outshines wool as a marketable commodity that the ideal ewe produces lambs that reach slaughter weight fast and produces NO wool.

 

There IS a niche market for handspinning wool but you kind of have to know people to get in on that. Most of the most dedicated ones have figured out that it's cheaper to keep a few sheep on grass for shearing themselves, than to buy fleeces on the open market.

 

Shetlands are a bit nutty from what I've heard. Might be frustrating for a dog just starting out.

 

I've heard Jacobs aren't bad (don't buy pets though), and you can sell them as curiosities and pets.

 

Navajo Churros have some kind of government conservation plan going on. Raising rare breeds is another niche operation, but you've got to learn the ins and outs of manipulating sheep genetics in a small gene pool. A mentor is the best way to go on this one.

 

Breeding club lambs is often scorned by the production folks, but that's how the only farms I know making money around here, break even. The only thing is, you have to work with breeds that are strongwilled and sometimes tough to manage - Suffolks, Dorset, North Country Cheviots, Border Leisters, Rambioullet (one of these days I'm going to learn how to spell that). These are also the type of sheep you need to raise to make money on market lambs. The most lean muscle, on the least feed, in the shortest amount of time.

 

Off-the-farm sales and freezer lambs (which can entail about any breed) can feed the bulldog for a small operation, but you can't be squeamish about taking Fluffy to be packed in little white wrappers for delivery to his adoring public. I love the lambs too and thoroughly enjoy how cute they are. But by about three months old, they lose that innocent smile and become hungry, dirty, foot stompimg, pooping machines. About that time I stop looking at their sweet faces and start eyeballing the muscling on that leg-o-lamb! It also helps when you have to catch and vaccinate, tattoo, worm, and vaccinate and worm every four weeks subsequently until they leave.

 

Regards,

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I forgot one: rent-a-sheep. This can entail anything from grazing people's backyards to contract work on highways and under powerlines. Tricky work but if you survive doing it you'll have a heck of a dog.

 

Regards,

[threejays farms]

Thank you Eileen and brookcove2! The opinions are extremely helpful. Our dog was a stray...she found us and she was such a pain. We got invited to a Bob Vest clinic in March and he raved about her...said that she chose me and that's the best kind of dog to have. I am a competitive person, and I'd really enjoy trials, but right now I just want to give "Freebie" the opportunity to be the best working dog she can be. I want her to have a large variety of experience. We've been told to crate her, not let her around the horses, not let her sleep in our bed. This dog is special. She was most definitely abused and I don't think she'd want to work for me if I changed everything about her routine. She's only 18 months old (so the vet thinks) and I want her working with me every day for a long time. We don't treat our horses like "typical" show horses, but they go out and win because they're happy to do so! I don't want to create a machine, so the sheep we get will for sure be used for training, but I'd like them to have some other purpose too! I'm willing to trade the flock or whatever when the dog is ready...the dog training does take priority over the sheep. Maybe we'd move on to cattle or goats or something??? Don't know. We've only been herding with her about 7 times, but in one weekend with Bob Vest, we moved from a round pen with three tame sheep to a square pen with three flighty agressive sheep to a big square pen with 5 goats! Don't know what we're doing really, but the less I do or say to her, the better she is. So, I'll continue to research the sheep and I would love to hear other's opinions as well!!!!

[Bounce]

This is a "duh" question but I'll ask it anyways. What is a Club lamb? I see the term alot, but its never defined. I am also sheep shopping.

[Bill Fosher]

A club lamb is one that should be clubbed like a baby seal.

 

Seriously -- it is a lamb that is produced for sale to 4-H or FFA kids (the clubs) for showing in the market lamb classes.

 

They are generally bred according to the whims of fashion in the show ring, and not for any useful purpose.

 

And that's the sugar-coated version.

[Sally A Molloy]

We have a couple of shetlands and a couple of shetland crosses for dog training, with lovely fleeces for hand spinning. The purebred shetlands are a lot of fun to work with an advanced dog, but I don't think that they are especially suitable for a beginning dog or a beginning handler -- they are very fast, very flighty, and they are very apt to split off from the group at high speeds given the slightest provocation. Our crosses (shetland x cheviots) are more reasonable than our purebred shetlands -- they are flockier and they are steadier in nature.

 

If you do decide on purebred shetland sheep, try to avoid buying sheep that have been raised as show sheep -- not an easy thing to do with a breed like shetlands. Show sheep are typically handled way too much to be of any use for dog training.

[threejays farms]

Thank you Sally! That's very helpful information...very much appreciated. Do you suggest any breeders or farms for purchasing shetland or shetland crosses? I have found several farms in Texas, but I haven't contacted them yet...thought I'd check with other herding dog people first before I call a farmer who may only have "Pet" sheep or show sheep like you say. Also, are the crosses of any value for the wool or do I have a better chance with the pure shetlands? Or if we need to sell or trade the flock will the crosses be harder to sell? Thanks so much!

[Bounce]

I understand now, club lambs are "Barbie sheep" for the "Barbie collies" By the way, we Canadians are no longer allowed to Club cute baby seals, we get to shoot them now so fashionable "Barbie people" can wear their pelts. It's a way of life for our Atlantic Northerners, much like fishing and farming. "Nuff said"

[Jordi44]

Thanks Bill,

I needed a chuckle - loved your definition of club lambs - except weren't you clubbing the wrong thing? Thought it was the jocks that drug them all up to show that should be clubbed. Oh the joys of showing anything. Thanks again for the laugh.

[Jordi44]

Hi again - now I'll give my 2 cents on the real topic. In Indiana, Shetlands are these scrawny little things that mature out at about knee height. Now I'll try to keep my feelings as neutral as possible and not tell you that here, we commonly replace the "e" with an "i" in the breed name, but you might want to consider that up here, markets laugh and ask what they are - and many refuse to take them and many auctions can't sell them. If you don't want to breed, or at least sell, any great number, this may not be a problem, but it's something to consider if it's the same in Texas. Also, being so small, they only produce, as I've been told by knowledgable people, that they only produce a few pounds of wool - not enough for many spinners to do much with - so unless you have a market for small quantities or people willing to mix fleeces, that's something else to consider. There are lots of fantastic wool breeds - not sure of all the availablility and the dog working traits of them all, but some to consider -

1)Rambouillet - very stubborn, can be crazy (speaking from experience) and challenging to dogs.

2) Romneys (smaller sheep with medium fleeces)

3) Cotswolds, Lincolns, and Border Leceisters

4) Corriedales

5) Natural Colored - lots of fun - come in various colors and are bred for color - so can be any breed or mix of breeds - select what suits your purpose. You can run a purebred flock with several breeds - some tougher to work, some easier tempered. I've seen all of the above breeds 'in color' as well as any mix of and just about any other breed you care to name.

Just a few thoughts and suggestions. Good luck - hope you have fun with whatever you choose.

[threejays farms]

Wow..thanks Jordi44. I do like the Border Leceisters, Corriedales and Cotswolds. I just can't find any! Some are much more expensive than my husband and I are wanting to spend. I did read that the breeds of sheep that are closer in origin to the border collie are the best to work dogs on.

[Jordi44]

I don't know if it's the right part of TX or what they would want for them, but try Burk and Bernie Lattimore at BLEWES@aol.com. They used to have cotswalds and if they don't have any, they might know of some or other breeds in your area.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think Corriedales are similiar to Rambos in temperament - can be weird to work but in a fun sort of way. Their strong flock instinct gives individuals the confidence to slip off on a tangent if the dog doesn't have firm control.

 

Cotswolds are reported to be quite docile, nicely cut out for a small farm flock. I don't have any information on how they work though.

[Pipedream Farm]

Rebecca,

 

there is one advantage for us living in the DC metro area (and there aren't many); I get $125 per head for our freezer lambs.

 

Mark

[threejays farms]

Thanks again to all of your for your opinions and insight. Keep em coming! :cool: