What to do when collapse occurs?

[Stephanieno]

I have heard different things to do when a Border Collie collapses (mine is thought to collapse from BCC). If the temperature can be normal for a working Border Collie at 106 F, is it still important to cool them down? If it is not because the sugars are low, do glucose or proteins help at all?

 

If anyone knows what is the best thing to do during a collapse, it would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Steph

[Mark Billadeau]

Until the cause of the syndrome has been identified (hopefully this will happen following the study) there is no accepted course of treatment for the syndrome. I would recommend helping to cool the dog, monitor the dog for distress, and monitor the dog after it recovers.

 

Mark

[Stephanieno]

Until the cause of the syndrom has been identifed (hopefully this will happen following the study) there is no accepted course of treatment for the syndrom. I would recommend helping to cool the dog, monitor the dog for distress, and monitor the dog after it recovers.

 

Mark

 

Thank you

 

I have to admit to being so worried about Kenzie. Dr. Taylor and Katie have been amazing at giving me some information and reassuring me about some things, but I realized that I had not asked this basic question.

Kenzie was in such distress when it happened and I was alone with her and my other two dogs. On the our drive home she was back to normal.

[Brad]

Both times Rig collapsed, he took several hours to get "back to normal". Last time, I was close to a stream, so I carried him into the water, then pulled him out and kind of hung him in the breeze to cool under his legs. If you're not near water, carry some rubbing alcohol to rub under their legs and belly, which causes some evaporative cooling. If you've got AC in your car, get him inthe car with full AC on, and try to get him standing to cool the underside of him.

Essentially, when my pitty stops playing to go jump in the water, I take that as a marker and make sure everyone gets wet and takes a break.

 

But sadly, in the summer months, Rig needs to stay home more than the others, as I go on long hikes with up to 45 minutes between creeks or other sources of water (other than what I can carry).

If there is water nearby though, it's easy(ier) to manage. When he's out working sheep in the heat, I make sure he breaks every 10 or 15 minutes for a soak in the trough..

[Stephanieno]

Both times Rig collapsed, he took several hours to get "back to normal". Last time, I was close to a stream, so I carried him into the water, then pulled him out and kind of hung him in the breeze to cool under his legs. If you're not near water, carry some rubbing alcohol to rub under their legs and belly, which causes some evaporative cooling. If you've got AC in your car, get him inthe car with full AC on, and try to get him standing to cool the underside of him.

Essentially, when my pitty stops playing to go jump in the water, I take that as a marker and make sure everyone gets wet and takes a break.

 

But sadly, in the summer months, Rig needs to stay home more than the others, as I go on long hikes with up to 45 minutes between creeks or other sources of water (other than what I can carry).

If there is water nearby though, it's easy(ier) to manage. When he's out working sheep in the heat, I make sure he breaks every 10 or 15 minutes for a soak in the trough..

 

I have been carrying even more water in the car, which is airconditioned, I also keep the cooling coat (it is one which you wet) in the car at all times now. I started carrying the rubbing alcohol because I was told once to use it on my cat's pads to bring a fever down, but I had not thought of putting it under the legs and belly, which makes sense.

 

Thanks,

 

Steph

[Brad]

I'm not familiar with the cooling coat, but I'd be cautious of adding a layer of anything wet, which could increase insulation and reduce actual cooling.

[topnotchdog]

If anyone knows what is the best thing to do during a collapse, it would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Steph

 

My vet has advised that if he has a BCC episode we cool him down by submerging his body (but never his head) in water; she said it was important to get his whole body wet, and then get him to a cool place. For that reason she recommended we engage in potentially problematic activities only if there is a good water source for this purpose on hand (i.e. creek or filled tub or kiddie pool). She recommended we travel with a thermometer, partly to make sure his temperature is coming down as he recovers (and if not get him to a vet). She and Dr. Taylor have both said the best thing to do is to avoid activities that bring it on. (I second your comments about her and Katie. I will be interested to learn what their study finds.)

 

Barbara

[Bill Fosher]

Gotta back up a little bit here ... who on earth said that 106 is a normal temperature for a working dog? That's a dangerously high temperature.

[Shetlander]

Gotta back up a little bit here ... who on earth said that 106 is a normal temperature for a working dog? That's a dangerously high temperature.

 

That's a good question.

 

Quinn is very heat intolerant. The holistic vet suggested I check his temp pre and post exercise. So in March, when the weather was in the upper 30's and very breezy, we played fetch for maybe 15 minutes, stopping when he was breathing hard. Quinn's temp had gone from 99.9 to 105.3. It came down very quickly. Neither the holistic vet or another vet had much to say about what was "normal" as far as that spike in temperature. And since the temp came down quickly, they seemed to figure Quinn was ok as long as I took care to keep him from overheating. So I am very careful with him, especially in hot weather.

 

I still don't know if it's normal for a dog's temperature to rise like that during exercise, but apparently it is the norm for Quinn. I think he could easily reach 106 when exerting himself in warm weather.

[topnotchdog]

Gotta back up a little bit here ... who on earth said that 106 is a normal temperature for a working dog? That's a dangerously high temperature.

 

Apparently working dogs can get very high body temps, like 107, but if it's short lived and they recover quickly it is considered normal (I too am still getting my head around that). There is an EIC syndrome in Labrador retrievers (not the same thing as BCC) identified by the same researcher working on the BCC study this summer. Here is an FAQ that talks about the body temps of the working Labs (scroll down to #10). Both normal and affected dogs can have body temps that reach those very high temps. http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickels...c/faq/home.html

 

If anybody takes the temp of their dog when hot from working, I'd be curious to hear what it is.

 

Barbara

[juliepoudrier]

Bill,

As Barbara knows, we have taken Ranger's temperature after working on several occasions (since Ranger and her dog Bodhi are close to the same age, it seemed to be an appropriate comparison), and although he didn't *appear* heat stressed, his temperature has gotten as high as 106.something. It did come back down pretty rapidly (2-3 degrees in the space of 10 minutes). Someone else told me the same thing about temperatures rising like that, but I never really thought about it, and wouldn't have with regard to working Ranger except that we wanted to compare Ranger's temperature after working for a specific amount of time to Bodhi's temperature after working the same amount of time. Interestingly (to me, anyway), Ranger's temperature after working was actually *higher* than Bodhi's, though Bodhi is the one who has shown signs of heat/exercise intolerance. The difference between the two seems to be that Ranger's temperature drops much more quickly. And no, Ranger didn't enjoy the part he played in our little experiment....

 

I'm with Barbara on the curiosity about temps of other dogs. I keep meaning to check my trained dogs after work, but the only work they're getting in this heat is the absolutely essential stuff (like I need to go pull the flock up and treat a ewe with an injury--if I could wait till dark I would, but I need to be able to see what I'm doing, so off we go).

 

ETA: We took temperatures after 5 minutes of work in a round pen. I've worked Ranger for much longer than that out in the field. Granted he's not going full bore the entire time, but it still made me wonder if I really should keep training sessions super short. Even after 15-20 minutes of work, he doesn't necessarily appear hot (i.e., no squinty eyes, sharply curved tongue tip), so taking his temperature was a real eye opener. I'm just not real sure what to do with the temperature information now that I have it.

 

J.

[topnotchdog]

The difference between the two seems to be that Ranger's temperature drops much more quickly.

 

Yes, that and his other signs which he was not showing that day, which are similar to what other affected dogs seem to have.

 

And no, Ranger didn't enjoy the part he played in our little experiment....

 

It was a noble cause. Still I feel I should make it up to him somehow.

 

I'm just not real sure what to do with the temperature information now that I have it.

 

J.

 

Syndrome or no syndrome, that part is very interesting to me, too. If heat stroke is 106-108, as in potential organ damage can occur, what does it mean if normal working dogs are routinely reaching and even sustaining these temps? Alternatively, I can't help wondering what is going on with a working dog that means that is routine & ok for them, but another dog would be in serious trouble. I also think your guess about your older, trained dogs is so interesting----do they reach those temps, and if not, are they settled in their work, or fitter, or something, and therefore less likely to get to those temps (not talking about BCC, just normal dogs now)?

 

I hope your ewe is ok.

 

B.

[Stephanieno]

Yes, that and his other signs which he was not showing that day, which are similar to what other affected dogs seem to have.

 

It was a noble cause. Still I feel I should make it up to him somehow.

Syndrome or no syndrome, that part is very interesting to me, too. If heat stroke is 106-108, as in potential organ damage can occur, what does it mean if normal working dogs are routinely reaching and even sustaining these temps? Alternatively, I can't help wondering what is going on with a working dog that means that is routine & ok for them, but another dog would be in serious trouble. I also think your guess about your older, trained dogs is so interesting----do they reach those temps, and if not, are they settled in their work, or fitter, or something, and therefore less likely to get to those temps (not talking about BCC, just normal dogs now)?

 

I hope your ewe is ok.

 

B.

I know when I told my vet, and I was talking to a vet at Agility House League, both were having a problem getting their head around it as well. I think that I will try taking Possum - my Mudi, which is a Hungarian herding breed's - temperature, and maybe I can bring my Shih Tzu Skye into this as well (neither will be impressed). I too have been carrying a thermometer around, but I am not sure if it is helpful, or just causing more stress for Kenzie and me.

 

My vet had told me anything over 106 is really dangerous, but that appears not to be the case when working. It is hard not having that black and white guide line.

[juliepoudrier]

Well, I haven't actually taken any temps in older dogs, but will have to make a concerted effort to do so, once it's possible to work them--might not be fair to do the experiment when it's 100 degrees outside (well, and certainly not fair to the sheep). But it is on my agenda for once the weather breaks....

 

The ewe is looking pretty good. Another couple of days of antibiotics and she should be just fine.

 

ETA: Oh, and Barbara, here's another interesting bit of data. Jack sometimes takes Fern walking with my pack and she gets really excited and tries to work the other dogs and is just a real pain in the butt for the entire walk if left unleashed. You haven't been on one of our walks out back, but it's a 15-20 minute loop. We walk and the dogs chase the basketball or pine cones or just amble along--whatever. If she's allowed to do her own thing (unleashed) Fern will get wobbly by the time we've made the circuit and gotten back to where the creek is. And yet we can work her for 15 or 20 minutes or more and she doesn't get wobbly. Another bit of evidence about some sort of mental connection? Fern overheats when she's over-excited/aroused/working the other dogs, but not when working sheep, even though I'm teaching her new things and it's stressful for her at those times. Hmmmm.... She'll be with me next week, so I'll try to get her temp a few times after working.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

A friend of ours has a dog with what looks like EIC. To test temperatures, we took the temperatures of three dogs (in addition to the EIC dog's) after working in a trial-type situation for about 10-15 mintues. It was last summer, in early June I think. It wasn't particularly hot out.

 

None of the non-EIC dogs was wobbly at the time they stopped working.

 

All of them had temperatures over 106. One of them had a temperature of 108 or 109.

 

I don't remember if we took all their temperatures again later, but we did take the 109-dog's and it was back down to normal pretty quickly.

 

I think my friend also took the temperature of yet another dog on a different day and that dog also had a high body temp after working (but was not wobbly or otherwise heat stressed)

 

ETA: the EIC dog and one of the non-EIC dogs are open dogs. The EIC dog's temp was in the middle of the range.

[Rave]

A vet friend of mine with a BC who collapses was trying to get to the bottom of the collapsing with NC State vet school. They tested the problem dog's stats and blood before during and after exercise, using her other BC w/o issues as a control. During exercise both dogs reached the same temps, which I think were in the 105-106 range. All they found was some of the blood values were really low (forget which ones sorry), so she started him on supplements and that seemed to help.

 

Really interested in seeing the results of the BCC study. When one of mine collapses, I just attempt to cool her off. For Rave, she gets a Valium since it causes her to seize.

[Brad]

so she started him on supplements and that seemed to help.

.

 

Laura, any recollection of which supplements?

[topnotchdog]

Well, I haven't actually taken any temps in older dogs [...], -might not be fair to do the experiment when it's 100 degrees outside (well, and certainly not fair to the sheep). But it is on my agenda for once the weather breaks....

 

Absolutely. I can barely do a thing after 8 a.m. right now. Will be so interesting to see.

 

Glad the ewe is alright.

 

ETA: Oh, and Barbara, here's another interesting bit of data. Jack sometimes takes Fern walking with my pack and she gets really excited and tries to work the other dogs and is just a real pain in the butt for the entire walk if left unleashed. You haven't been on one of our walks out back, but it's a 15-20 minute loop. We walk and the dogs chase the basketball or pine cones or just amble along--whatever. If she's allowed to do her own thing (unleashed) Fern will get wobbly by the time we've made the circuit and gotten back to where the creek is. And yet we can work her for 15 or 20 minutes or more and she doesn't get wobbly. Another bit of evidence about some sort of mental connection? Fern overheats when she's over-excited/aroused/working the other dogs, but not when working sheep, even though I'm teaching her new things and it's stressful for her at those times. Hmmmm.... She'll be with me next week, so I'll try to get her temp a few times after working.

 

J.

 

All these dogs are going to hate me, lol!

 

So based on that Fern example, seems like there might be yet another combination of things going on: heat intolerance when coupled with a certain mental state, v.s. exercise intolerance when coupled with a certain mental state (Bodhi's had episodes when it's not been remotely hot out). Maybe it is more like a venn diagram, with certain variables overlapping in certain dogs, some of which are more of a heat episode and some are more of a BCC. I am just so excited about the study, what timing to help sort it all out! (fyi Bodhi's only gotten wobbly once, the rest of the time he's gotten a bit stiff behind.) Fortunately we seem to be homing in on what combination of factors are too much for him & are so far pretty successful (knock wood) at preventing it altogether.

 

B.

[Rave]

Laura, any recollection of which supplements?

 

I'm asking her. I think Co-q-10 was one. Of course this might just have been her dog's particular deficiency.

[Stephanieno]

I'm asking her. I think Co-q-10 was one. Of course this might just have been her dog's particular deficiency.

This is taken from the Martin Referral website about EIC/BCC: L-carnitine at 50mg/kg twice a day

CoEnzyme Q10 at 100mg per dog each day

Riboflavin (vitamin B2) at 100mg per dog each day

 

Here is the link: http://www.martinreferrals.com/exercise_co...ador_collie.asp

 

The supplements you are talking about may be different, but I was thinking of trying them. Does anyone have any ideas about whether they should help or not?

 

Steph

[topnotchdog]

This is taken from the Martin Referral website about EIC/BCC: L-carnitine at 50mg/kg twice a day

CoEnzyme Q10 at 100mg per dog each day

Riboflavin (vitamin B2) at 100mg per dog each day

 

Here is the link: http://www.martinreferrals.com/exercise_co...ador_collie.asp

 

The supplements you are talking about may be different, but I was thinking of trying them. Does anyone have any ideas about whether they should help or not?

 

Steph

 

Hi Steph,

 

I think no one knows yet. My understanding from Dr. Taylor is that is that the B12 type supplements might help if it is a muscle-related problem, whereas in border collies it may well be a nervous system problem. But until they know the underlying cause, it's impossible to know what treatment might be beneficial. Other than avoiding activities that bring on the collapse.

 

I'm sorry your dog is having trouble.

 

Barbara

[Rave]

This is taken from the Martin Referral website about EIC/BCC: L-carnitine at 50mg/kg twice a day

CoEnzyme Q10 at 100mg per dog each day

Riboflavin (vitamin B2) at 100mg per dog each day

 

Here is the link: http://www.martinreferrals.com/exercise_co...ador_collie.asp

 

The supplements you are talking about may be different, but I was thinking of trying them. Does anyone have any ideas about whether they should help or not?

 

Steph

 

That's exactly it! I was coming back to write I remembered the l-carnitine, but there it is. Thanks!

 

A vet friend in the NW is recommending B12 injections, which I tried. Don't know if it helped or not though.