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How to pick a trainer


SunDogs
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Hi Everyone,

 

This is my first post so...be nice

 

I am new to herding and just started my BC (5yo rescue) on sheep a couple months ago. I am having trouble finding trainers that work mostly with BC's in my area. Is this important? To me, BC's seem far superior and seem to have natural abilities above most other herding dogs.

 

While I like my trainer now, it seems she is focuses mostly on *** type herding with some AHBA type stuff. She is really into another breed but trains all breeds. I have sensed an attitude about her breed (& others) being dissed by BC people. She seems to go to great lengths to prove that other breeds are equal to a BC in herding.

 

I feel like we are being held back and moving painfully slow in our training. Maybe to avoid offending/showing up other breeds we train with that have been working longer. After about 12 working hours we are still in the small round pen. The one book I've read (Virgel Holland) said that we should be out into the bigger field ASAP.

 

Without her knowledge (I don't think she'd approve) I have been going to work sheep at another farm without an instructor. We seem to work much nicer in the larger field where my dog can get back away from the sheep. In the smaller pen there is way too much pressure and she stays too close. With room to move she does much better.

 

I am not sure if I am being impatient or if I am truly wroking with the wrong person...how do you know?

 

As I said my pool of trainers is limited. I have been bitten by the bug though. I would like to work up to ISDS style trials...is the beginning work similar to other venues? Or am I doing great harm training there?

 

Thanks for any info you can give!

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Hi ?? (can't find your name in your post!)

 

I live in France where we don't have such a thing as a trainer. We do have the option of going to four days of group training a year but have to take whichever trainer is offered. It is not the custom either in Great Britian to have a trainer.and we all know what lousy handlers THEY are!! (VERY BIG GRIN)

If you are unhappy with the progress of your dog, move on. After all it's your money. Would it not be better to invest that money in some good books and tapes that specialise in Border Collies?

I too have met some who think that another breed can be as good as a BC...and spend inordinate amounts of time trying to prove it. I have seen only one such dog, a superb Beauceron owned by a superb handler. You are probably still in the round pen because the others can't keep up. I noticed that you recognised the value of keeping your dog off the sheep...clearly you already have the ability to notice the important signs in training. So my advice would be to try it without a trainer for a while and rely on all the other sources of info. My sources were the Sheepdog-L list and friends, books, videos and just plain doing it. All were invaluable to me and after 5 years of picking brains and hard work , I now have two dogs in Open class and one youngster coming up. And TBH, it's a great way to meet like-minded people who can become good friends!

All the best

Sue

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Welcome to the Boards! (How's that for nice? )

 

It's tough to be in your position, because it's very hard for someone new to herding to evaluate a trainer. But you seem to be doing a good job of it.

 

A good border collie trainer does not train for particular courses or trial exercises, as someone might train for obedience or agility competition. A good border collie trainer tries to develop the dog's natural instincts and work with them, to make the dog a good sound stockdog, first and foremost. To do that, you have to give the dog some scope to work, to feel the pressure of the stock and learn how the sheep react to him and how they can be controlled. Very little of that can be done in a small ring. Once the dog is circling freely, bending out with pressure from the handler, and stopping on balance, he should definitely be taken out of the ring. A lot of good trainers would have him out before that.

 

Border collies simply ARE superior to other breeds in herding ability. If your trainer seems invested in proving otherwise, you'd be better off without her, IMO. If you have independent access to sheep, as you apparently do, it's a no-brainer.

 

It would be nice if you could go to a really good border collie trainer (are you sure there are none within reach?), but as Sue says, trainers are a relatively new phenomenon and most of us struggled to where we are without them. Books, videos, internet lists and bulletin boards can be a lot of help. Every now and then you'll need to bring a problem to a live person. Clinics are helpful there. Another possibility is attending USBCHA trials (check the list of trials at http://www.usbcha.com/upcomingtrials.htm periodically to find one near you). By doing that, you can not only see what good stock work looks like, but you may be able to make contact with a handler who's close enough to you that you could go to him/her occasionally for some help when you're stuck, or to help him/her with stock chores (which will help you even more).

 

I hope you'll get more advice from others as well. If you have further questions, ask us, and we'll try to help.

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I suggest you contact the USBCHA director in your region, see if they can suggest anyone. I used to drive one and a half hours one way once a week to work my dogs- finaly moved closer- now it's only 45 minutes. Many people I know drive much farther to get to a good trainer. Since you have access to sheep on the side, you're doing better than most of us when we started and I also suggest you save up sick days from work )and a bit of money and make it to a good clinic. Sounds like you're on your way! Welcome to the addiction!

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Many dogs work better outside of a small or round pen because the pressures in a small pen can intimidate a dog and the very size can create problems in some dogs.

 

Why would any teacher disapprove of a student working sheep away from the trainer's place? Are you sure that is true? If it is, it is very odd indeed.

 

Penny

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Where are you?

 

I agree with what was said about small round pens, I think they are good for starting some dogs, but not good for others. With some dogs there is simply not room enough in a small pen for the sheep plus the dog & it's bubble.

 

In addition to lessons with trainers, I have also found clinics and "one time" lessons from good handlers/trainers to be very valuable. Keep an eye out for those coming to your area, they're well worth the cost, in many ways.

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Thanks everyone,

 

I feel much better about my choice to go out on my own now. I guess my trainer acts like I could really do some damage by going out on my own. Maybe that is my interpretation?? It never occured to me that people might train on thier own all the time.

 

I have been intentionally vague so that no one would know who I was talking about. You never know who might be reading right?!?

 

I am in Florida. After looking on the USBCHA site (thanks Eileen!) I've found 2 trials in the next couple months that I might be able to attend. Are the entries in "red" cattle dog trials? What is the comparison from cattle to sheep? Do the dogs still do a large outrun as in the SD trial?

 

Perhaps I will focus on my own side work & then see if someone at the farms holding the trials gives lessons. They are within a few hours of me.

 

Thanks Again!

BC Lover in FL

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Hi,

 

I assume you mean the Red River Cattle Dog Trials? There would be some good handlers there, if that is something you are interested in going into. Cow dog trials can have as large of outruns as sheepdog trials do, but are likely to have more variation in course and obstacles. One thing for hobby herders (of which I am one) needs to realize about working cows is that every time you do it, you put your dogs life on the line- the worst can happen, is far more likely to happen, on cattle. I do think working cattle, unless you make your living off it and have lots of knowledge about what makes cows tick, should be approached after you are comfortable with herding in general and working sheep. You and your dog need to know enough to stay out of trouble on cows. I worked sheep exclusively for about 2 years before I tried my dog on cattle, I got lucky I had a dog with good sense for working cattle, and having the knowledge of how pressure works and basic control of my dog made it possible to make that transition.

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Yes, the entries in red type/font on the USBCHA trial site are cattle trials. I agree with Jaime that you would be well-advised to stick with sheep for now, but you might enjoy spectating at a cattle dog trial, and would probably meet sheepdog trainers and handlers there too.

 

Coincidentally, yesterday evening I happened to be looking at the most recent issue of The Working Border Collie magazine. One of the articles in it is called "Ten Sure-Fire Ways to Goof Up a Good Stockdog." This was #8:

 

"Train only in a small area or round pen with dog broke sheep. To prevent your young dog from developing stock sense and balance, never work him in the open; just keep everything enclosed. Otherwise his instinct to herd, instead of just running circles, may come to the surface."

 

Seems to apply here . . .

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Just to add a short note here...

First I want to make it clear that there are some really good trainers available and that I never wanted anyone to think that I frowned upon them all. I only wanted to advise that if one trainer doesn't suit, to move on.

Second, I have started about half a dozen dogs over the last 4 years and have used the small round pen only with the first one and only until she had a clue about left and right. I think now that it didn't help her as much as it helped me. It allowed me to be able to think about one thing at a time (flanking commands) instead of two or three things (distance from the sheep, gripping, cutting corners etc) . Now I never use a round pen unless I have a dog that likes to grip and doesn't have a good stop (at the same time). YOu will come to learn how to place yourself and when to move to achieve what you want, while allowing the dog space to express itself too. It isn't true that the round pen teaches the dog to stay off stock when it is eventually allowed to work without one...if a dog naturally works closely it will revert to this quickly and there are other methods of training to correct this. But you can only start to do "real training" when the dog is free to show what it is naturally wanting to do. The round pen is, AFAIAC, very limited in its usefulness and you will soon come to be able to do whatever you need without the aid of the pen.

Goood luck! You are starting on a wonderful journey!

Sue

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bc lover, if you're in Florida, you might want to contact Quinn & Sandy Tindall, sqtindall@aol.com, for help in finding a trainer. Florida is a big state, and you may not be near Okeechobee, which is where they are, but they've been in border collies for a very long time and I'm sure they'd know whether there's a suitable trainer within feasible distance from you.

 

Just a (belated) thought.

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