agility question

[bcnewe2]

So is agility taught using a clicker most of the time?

Just wondering

[Carlasl]

Not in my experience

 

In fact my instructor has stopped using clickers at all in her beginner classes, instead using the word yes to act as a bridge. She was seeing so many people having trouble managing the clicker that she felt a verbal marker was better for beginners than clickers.

 

I think once people get "hooked" on dog training (agility, or trick training), that many of them will migrate to clicker training because it really is a better marker than a verbal once you get the hang of it.

 

I like to have both, when I am first training something I use the clicker to shape it, then once the dog knows what I want I switch to a verbal yes.

[Root Beer]

So is agility taught using a clicker most of the time?

Just wondering

 

It depends on the instructor. Some have their students use them, some don't.

 

My instructor doesn't have her students use clickers, but she has always been fine with me, and others who choose to, using them in her class when we feel it's appropriate for our dogs. It is up to us to decide how to use the clicker, although she has always been helpful with advice about timing.

 

I've heard of Agility instructors who are totally against clickers. I've heard of instructors that require their use. And I've heard of pretty much everything in between.

[Pat W.]

All depends on the instructor, dog and handler, on my aussie I used a clicker, with my current dog who shuts down with a clicker I use a verbal which has worked very nicely. My daughter is also training her new agility partner with verbal only

[bcnewe2]

Thanks Kris & Carla

 

NOt sure I want to use all clicker training for this class. But I will try anything (if it's not harmful) for a bit.

The lady teaching was showing us how to shape the behaviour of leading from behind (Dog in back of you while following you around) fine, but her little sheltie was scarring me with the way it wouldn't take it's eyes or focus off the lady's face. Like one of those ob dogs that never take it's eye off it's owners face. I just can't wrap my head around that one and feel it takes her brain away from her and only uses mine.

Is this a big deal, or can I sorta modify that behavior and not encourage Dew to be watching me so close. She knows I'm there, heck we're together with a lead or a treat keeping her interest, I think she'll happily stay behind me wihtout the intense focus. Am I going to be a drop out quickly if I modify things a bit?

This week our homework is to learn the word "jump or over", touching a target and this following behavior and to practice clicker training. Which Dew was catching on to quickly except she decided that she was supposed to sit each time I clicked so I"m working on a moving click to get her to realize sitting isn't the behavior I want.

I think it's sorta funny, Dew and Mick have an "under" command cause Mick can't jump and I've never bothered to teach them to jump things only to go under. I can teach that behavior in 2 minutes my way but I'm trying to use their way. The guy told me it's not the action I'm teaching but what she is to jump over (the bar?) Bit confusing to me.

Just looking for assurance that we can do this and not interfere with her thinking brain for working. When I watch agility, the dogs look like they are having a ball and using their brains at the same time. Last night I felt like we were being told to not use her brain the way she's been taught to do. And I already know I won't be all positive because NO or ahh just flips out my mouth, it's not a bad word or sound, just one that tells Dew that's not what I"m looking for.

 

Suggestions or comments?

 

TIA

[Root Beer]

NOt sure I want to use all clicker training for this class. But I will try anything (if it's not harmful) for a bit.

The lady teaching was showing us how to shape the behaviour of leading from behind (Dog in back of you while following you around) fine, but her little sheltie was scarring me with the way it wouldn't take it's eyes or focus off the lady's face. Like one of those ob dogs that never take it's eye off it's owners face. I just can't wrap my head around that one and feel it takes her brain away from her and only uses mine.

 

FWIW, when I started working with Speedy I didn't use clicker with him - didn't know about it when we started. He has that kind of riveting focus on me, and he had that even before I got into clicker work with him. Dean is completely clicker trained and he has a very nice balance of focus on me and obstacle focus. He definitely is not an eyes-glued-on-me kind of dog.

 

So, I think it has a lot more to do with something about the dog than whether or not the dog is clicker trained. Of course, you can foster that kind of focus by reinforcing it a lot, but if you are shaping other things that require the dog to focus on something else, then you really should be in good shape.

 

Is this a big deal, or can I sorta modify that behavior and not encourage Dew to be watching me so close. She knows I'm there, heck we're together with a lead or a treat keeping her interest, I think she'll happily stay behind me wihtout the intense focus. Am I going to be a drop out quickly if I modify things a bit?

 

LOL!! I can hardly think of an exercise that I don't modify in some way. I'm sure there are some, but generally speaking, I tailor just about every exercise that I do in classes for my own dog.

 

Just looking for assurance that we can do this and not interfere with her thinking brain for working.

 

Yes - you absolutely can.

 

Think about it this way - don't you vary the way you have your dog learn things in other circumstances? This is just another mode of learning. It won't shut down your dog's ability to learn in other ways.

 

When I watch agility, the dogs look like they are having a ball and using their brains at the same time.

 

True. If they weren't using their brains, they would be crashing into things and getting lost on the course. I know that sounds kind of stupid, but I've seen that happen. In fact, I've watched my own dog do it! Just a couple of months ago I was using a ball with Dean in class and he got too focused on the ball and crashed a jump. He wasn't using his brain - it had turned to ball mush. He has not forgotten to use it in that situation since!!

 

Suggestions or comments?

 

If you aren't sure about something, talk to the instructor (before or after class, maybe). You can ask why he or she wants you to do things a certain way. If you are uncomfortable with something, explain why. If you want to do things a different way, ask. There might be a very good reason why, in an Agility context, something might be a bad idea that works well in other situations. The instructor should be able to articulate that. And there are things that might work for you that differ from the way the instructor is doing things. Like I said - I modify just about everything. My instructors are usually fine with it because I talk to them about what I'm doing and why.

 

Some instructors won't be OK with that sort of thing, but most will be.

[bcnewe2]

Thanks Kris!

[bcnewe2]

So we went out to play training this morning.

I just can't help it...if Dew missed the jump I would say...ahhahh nope (still in a happy voice cause she knows what the word means and also that I'm not mad) and we got it figured out. She quickly loses interest in food, so... do I understand you post, you use the ball or other things sometimes? I need to keep things switched up or really starve her and that's no fun.

We did have fun!

[airbear]

LOL, I have the same problem. I just can't let an "incorrect" behaviour go without saying "whoops!". I may tape my mouth next training session.

 

I have never completely clicker-trained a dog for agility. I am now training dog #4 (Lou never competed but learned the equipment and the basic handling) and I'm seeing what I can do with just shaping things. My previous methodology was the good ol' "lure and bribe". It worked just fine, but I enjoy learning new ways to interact and train dogs, so I thought "What the heck, I'll give this a try".

 

Dog #4 is Rex. As a background, Rex is a two year-old border collie. He ran Nursery last year, won most of the Nursery trials he went in, won a couple PN trials too. He ran at the CBCA/Wester Canadians (came 4th in WC) and at the USBCHA finals in Klamath where he made the cut for the final round. All of that is to say ... he is a trained stock dog. He was raised on a farm for the first 14 months of his life, then lived with a trainer for a year. At the trainer's he lived in an outdoor kennel with the other dogs in a fairly rural setting. Rex was trained the way that most sheep dogs are trained - that is, work with their instinct and their innate desire to please. Add some "make the right easy and the wrong difficult" and that would describe the curriculum. He learned to take corrections (verbal or physical pressure, not hangings or beatings or any of the other things that sport people seem to think goes into training a stockdog) and he learned basic manners (being on a tie-out at trials, socializing with other dogs, etc.).

 

Rex came home with me in December of 2009. He lives in the house, he seems to have mastered housebreaking, and except for eating a pen, he has been fairly well-behaved. He can walk downtown through busy traffic with no issues. Oh, and he's extremely food-motivated! The process of "loading the clicker" didn't take long with this little guy. After the first couple pieces of cheese were delivered, he knew the click meant a good thing.

 

I think that dogs are quite flexible when it comes to learning stuff. For example, one weekend, Rex was at a Shanahan clinic, where we worked on pace, then the next weekend, he was at a clicker-training seminar, where we learned how to shape a basic paw touch. Next weekend, he will be at a Daisy Peel puppy foundation seminar, and the week after that he will be running PN in a field trial. I do not believe that training in one discipline with one methodology will screw up or even affect his performance in another discipline. I have no intention of becoming a purely positive handler/trainer in herding. I just think it would be interesting to try a different way of training an agility dog. We'll see how long it lasts!

[Root Beer]

She quickly loses interest in food, so... do I understand you post, you use the ball or other things sometimes? I need to keep things switched up or really starve her and that's no fun.

We did have fun!

 

Yes, I use a ball or frisbee for Dean sometimes. I train him with food when I really want him to think about what he's doing. I use toys when I want high enthusiasm, of course after he knows what he's doing so he doesn't have to think about it quite as much. Or, sometimes, when I want him to think a little harder! I know that doesn't make sense, but a lot of it just depends on what we are working on.

[Carlasl]

So we went out to play training this morning.

I just can't help it...if Dew missed the jump I would say...ahhahh nope (still in a happy voice cause she knows what the word means and also that I'm not mad) and we got it figured out. She quickly loses interest in food, so... do I understand you post, you use the ball or other things sometimes? I need to keep things switched up or really starve her and that's no fun.

We did have fun!

 

 

Depending on the dog( I have a rescue dog that shuts down when she even senses she didn't do something right), I don't see any problem with this. I was just watching Susan Garrett's 2X2 weaves DVD and she uses oops (and doesn't give a reward), when her dog doesn't do the right thing, it doesn't mean the dog see's it as a negative, just try something else to get the right behavior and the reward.

 

I use oops with Maya, used in an upbeat tone the same way, it just means, oops you need to try something different so you can get the reward.

 

I don't use a lot of food treats with Maya, she responds a lot better to tug or her ball, I try to use all of them and switch things up. But if I really want to cement a behavior we get out the tennis ball. I use food treats for some things (circle work, handling behaviours, new behaviors that have steps to them etc...).

[SS Cressa]

Never thought to use a clicker for agility. You have to be careful about your timing. Don't want to click for wrong behavior!

 

I just use the lure method. No issue with it yet. Should mention since i don't know if it would have an impact. But both dogs were raised "in/for agility". Was shaping commands and behavior since puppyhood. And of course used toys for the speed and drive. How do you use a toys with a clicker?

 

I use the clicker for tricks shaping.

[Root Beer]

How do you use a toys with a clicker?

 

Click - throw toy. Or, click - hold toy out to dog to come in for tug.

 

In Agility I use the clicker when introducing the equipment for any choice to interact with it. Once the dog is comfortable with it and is learning exactly what to do, I use the clicker to some extent to mark correct choices. Once the dog knows what to do with the equipment, I tend to drop the use of the click, unless there is some particular skill that I am working on with the dog that needs a clear marker.

 

I use the clicker to teach start line stays. I use the clicker to teach the dog to come to the correct side of my body when called. I use the clicker to teach contacts, both running and stopped. I use the clicker for some parts of weave training. I've used it some in discrimination work. With a dog that does not have a lot of natural drive for the equipment, I've used the clicker to build drive.

 

I'm sure I've used it for other skills, but those are the ones that come easiest to mind.

 

As far as timing - it all works out over time. A few mistimed clicks don't hurt anything in the long run.

[SecretBC]

If people have done a lot of clicker work with their dog prior to agility, I tell them they are welcome to use the clicker in class if they feel their dog learns best with that method. I don't bring up the clicker to non-clicker students, however, because it generally ends up being a giant mess of them trying to handle their dog, the clicker & treats. Using the clicker properly requires a bit of skill & finesse -- and agility performances CAN be taught without it, so I generally don't bring it up.

 

I never used a clicker for any agility training with my boys. I clicker-trained Luke for the first year of his life -- tricks and whatnot -- but when we started agility when he was three, I had long left the clicker behind and it never occured to me to use it for agility. Kaiser was scared of the clicker as a puppy, so I never used one for him on anything.

 

Secret has been clicker trained from day one. She is my little shaping maniac and she loves any game involving the clicker. It has been a no-brainer to use the clicker for her early training. Her contacts (2-on/2-off) were trained entirely through shaping with the clicker and they are rock solid because of it. I initially shaped her interaction with hoops and jump standards, as well as tunnels. Once she got the idea, I stopped using the clicker with these obstacles, but I still school her contact performances with the clicker at least once a week.

 

She'll start her weave training towards the end of summer via the 2x2 method. I more than likely will use the clicker for the first stage of training, then move on without it --- Mostly because I would prefer to use toys, and Secret will NOT show interest in toys when the clicker is out. To her, click = food.

[bcnewe2]

Her contacts (2-on/2-off) were trained entirely through shaping with the clicker and they are rock solid because of it. I initially shaped her interaction with hoops and jump standards, as well as tunnels

 

I'm sure that one day I'll understand all these language barriers

But I do get the jest of things. I think my thoughts were spot on with the clicker, is this clicker training classes or agility classes? If I'm expected to use the clicker and use it well then I"m going to have to do clicker training on top of agility training.

Dew isn't really getting the click = food but she's trying and so am I. I'm not even sure she's hearing(noticing) the click or just smelling the food. She's never been a food motivatied dog but then again I've never used it to motivate her and she does like treats and eating....

 

Kristi your story is exactly what I needed to hear. We scare the sport people and they scare us to a commical extent! But for me it's really about the dog enjoying life with me, either in working stock or what ever we might choose to do. So onward and upward!

Dew would much rather be my stockdog than the type that lives outside without inside interaction. She's all about the couch, bed and personal lovin! But let her see sheep and she's all about the work so we have a very happy medium!

Thanks guys and I'm sure I'll be back asking more questions soon!

[airbear]

...We scare the sport people and they scare us to a commical extent! But for me it's really about the dog enjoying life with me, either in working stock or what ever we might choose to do.

Well, I've been straddling both worlds, as it were, for a few years now, and some of the things I've heard from each side are, well, silly. You've got the agility people who say that working a collie on stock will increase its propensity to grip you in the ring. Huh. I guess there are a lot of shepherds getting bit? Or that they don't want a dog from strong working lines, as they are too sticky on the equipment. Honest to doG, I thought this was a joke, but someone showed me the quote in an agility magazine (and the quote came from one of the very top handlers at the time).

 

Then I've heard from the stockdog people that if I play ball with my collies, they are going to look for a ball instead of the sheep when they go into a field. If that's the case, then I don't think I want to be working that kind of dog! I'm pretty sure my trial dogs could work in a field of tennis balls and cheese, so long as there was stock for them to move. Another one is that sport-trained dogs just stare at their handlers looking for directional cues, and if the handler is too far away, she can't direct them. Um, isn't that what whistles are for?

 

Anyway, I have a limit to the number of dogs I can keep, and I like both the stockwork and the agility. (Well, truthfully, I hate training in either, but love to compete. ) Wick has no instinct or interest in working stock. Lou is built like a freighter and it's painful to watch him run even a wide-open agility course. So I've pinned my hopes on Rexxy being my two-sport athlete.

[rushdoggie]

For a dog who "gets" the clicker I find it invaluable training agility skills...for example, I once helped a friend with a dog who really struggled with the chute. Said dog didn't get the concept of lowering his head and charging out. We laid the chute so it barely covered the opening to the barrel, and when his nose dropped to push out we clicked. He started charging head down...in 15 minutes (working in 3 minute increments) we got a dog who was starting to get freaked out dropping his head and charging. The clicker helped him "get it."

 

I also use it extensively when training directional, capturing the correct head flick so they understand how and when to start direction changes.

 

That said, plenty of people do an outstanding job training agility without a clicker, so its far from necessary. If you don't feel comfortable using it, its not much help to you.

 

For those that like a clicker but feel like they are juggling too much, I prefer the clickers with the small elastic loop which I put on my thumb and leave it hanging...its handy and available and not in my way.

[Root Beer]

We scare the sport people and they scare us to a commical extent! But for me it's really about the dog enjoying life with me, either in working stock or what ever we might choose to do. So onward and upward!

 

I wouldn't say you guys scare me. Sheep do, but that's completely different!! :D

 

And I'd say my ultimate goal is the same - my dog and I enjoying life together. So, there's some good common ground.

 

After I posted in this thread earlier, I thought of something else I wanted to tell you that is sort of along those lines. Even within the context of sports, I wonder how training my dog one thing might affect another. For instance, Dean has a fantastic splat down. I worry that if I teach him a "bow" (stretch), he is going to start getting them mixed up. Now, I know that he is plenty smart enough to differentiate, and I know that I am capable of teaching him to do so. But it's still a concern. He struggles a bit sometimes with holding a solid front position while in motion. I wonder if teaching him to heel flipped around "backwards" (so he and I are facing opposite directions while he's on my left) is going to weaken his work in front. Again, I know he can learn the difference, and that I can teach it. But it concerns me.

 

I've found that considering those kinds of questions is part of the game.

[bcnewe2]

Oh Kris I know we don't scare you and you don't scare us but that's becasue we've taken the time to get to know each other (even if it is cyberly) but you should hear what I hear when I'm around "sport" people who don't bother to learn what stockwork is about. They think we beat our dogs (that's a correction you know) and all sorts of stuff that makes me just giggle.

THe other night at our first class the instructors were sure I was going to have an issue with Dew circling me cause that's what "stockdogs" do. What? Then I'd always be on my bum cause I'm not that coordinated and if I had dogs circling me I'd be fallng all over them and me!

It'll be fun to see what's myth and real, at least for me. Dunno about them. You have to be open minded enough to hear the information being put out there and of course I'm trying not to say to much cause I'm trying to learn!

 

Dew and I are going to keep working on the clicker but I'm not going to worry about it while I"m training the agility stuff. I can't master 2 things at once and be anywhere close to efficent at both if I do them together.

 

Dew's got the jump thing down and we're just about good on the target thing but she has requested that I bring a live chicken to the class instead of treats or a toy, she swears if she can work a chicken as a reward she will do anything! Yesterday while training, about every 5 times we'd get something right I'd let her go check on her chickens, she had a blast doing both!

THis is going to be in interesting class!

And as far as teaching different things in different manners. They are def. smart enough to know the difference. Dew's down off sheep is pretty rough, her sit is beautiful but on stock she has a great down. I don't see her confusing anything else whend we work sheep.

 

Yesterday I got confused and told her to "touch" when I meant something else, I didn't have the target for her to touch anywhere around. She stood there, looking around like ok...touch what? It was pretty funny, we both laughed casue she got the treat anyways since it was my fault!

If it's possible she's more lovie than ever, I think it's cause we're getting alone time more than anyother dogs and she's feeling special. So am I!