coincidence or.....?

[Shawna]

I took Darcy with me to a trial last weekend. For the first part of the day she couldn't see much but later, when the open dogs ran, we were in a position where she could watch through the fence.

 

Naturally she was interested and watched intently, however, when I took her out to work a couple of days later, she was a brand new dog. She is full of an exuberance/concentration I haven't seen in her before. I know for other types of training if your dog is having difficulty you can show them a dog that knows what they are doing and it will often help but I never thought that at that distance she would pick things up.

 

She has been consistantly better over the last three days (poor little ducks). She is much more in tune with the animals, hardly dropping any, and working much harder with less stress. Do you think this is just a fluke and she just finally caught on, or should I find more trials to take her to?

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 09-20-2002).]

[Margaret M Wheeler]

I have been told in no uncertain terms that dogs do not learn this way and if they do, they learn only bad habits.

 

Do I agree with what I have been told? No, I think that dog learning has a great deal in common with people learning. An important component of human learning comes from individual practice (doing it ourselves) under the supervision of a teacher. But, research shows that we learn a great deal from our peers as well: by observing them we see how others who are very close to us in skill level manage subtle difficulties or how the approach the task as a whole. Things we can't get from the teacher, we get from the individuals in our group whom we emulate.

 

As the days go by with Miss Nelly Belly, I am convinced that border collie learning and human learning have a great deal in common. On the other hand, I don't disagree with the warning that these dogs can learn some very bad habits from their peers. But again they have that in common with us, don't they?

 

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Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

[Bill Fosher]

Could it be that simply being in a place where there were sheep but she had to be calm taught her a little bit of self-control?

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Guest PrairieFire]

It's pretty common for handlers at trials to take a dog to see another dog's outrun and sometimes fetch - but that's usually just to help a dog "see" where to see, I think...

 

I think Bill F.'s is close to the mark, your dog needed to learn to relax, and in that situation she was forced to.

 

With young hotblooded pups I will take a book to the pasture and read while we "sheeptend" - forcing them to relax.

 

I do, however, think dogs learn by observation and expereince - they don't have language so thier learning process is very different from ours - but they can learn many, many things that you don't want them to learn...jsut ask any handler who has tried to show thier dog the setout sheep and had the dog at the post focus on the exhaust sheep - and then watched thier dog do exactly the same thing...

 

There was a long and complicated thread awhile back discussing "learning theory" - don't know if we made any sense, but we got to blow off a lot of steam...

 

Margaret - I wanted to comment on something you said about "crate training" Nell, and how easy it was - you might not know this, but those pups were kenneled with a crate from the time they were first moved outside, not only a crate, but a big dogloo for all and sundry to pile in and out of...so they never needed to be "crate trained" - they "learned" that a crate was simply part of their wonderful little lives...

 

That's just one of the ways I think you can turn "training" into "learning"..."making the right easy and the wrong difficult".

 

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Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Oh, Bill I know the great job you did with these pups! It was obvious to me from the minute I walked into your yard. I was particularly impressed by your nice kennel near the front door and the way you have socialized them with a variety of adult dogs. It is surprising the number of breeders who forget to socialize their pups with adults who are not particularly interested in foolish nippy youngsters.

 

When I talk about "crate training" I mean something that many working dog people hardly need to do: the crate is used as a tool (actually a sort of crutch) for new owners who have a very hard time teaching the pup house training and manners.

 

If you had done this sort of crate training, you would have had six little crates lined up in the kitchen for each pup to spend scheduled time alone in every day. I have never crate trained the pups I sell in this manner. I leave that to the new owners. First off, the pups aren't ready for crate training until they are at least 8 weeks. Second, I don't like to crate a pup overnight until it is much older than that because I think it encourages them to soil their bed.

 

As the years have gone by, I have done less and less crating and rather have focused on keeping my pups with me a large amount of time. That puts the responsibility on me to learn what the pup does when she wants to go out and she learns from me that I want her to go out instead of relying on the confines of a crate to teach her.

 

Now! Back to Shawna's point. Educators really had no clue about "the zone of proximal development" for many years after it was "discovered" by a researcher named Vgotsky. Learners don't talk about this part of their learning, probably because it is so natural and reflexive. I believe it is relevant to dog learning simply by observing the pups I have run on here. They do things that in my opinion they could have learned only from my other dogs, particularly their mothers. How does this apply to herding behavior? Not a clue! I am just saying it's possible. And I think to say that Shawna's dog simply learned to calm down trivializes the dog's ability to reason and operates from the assumption that Shawna has not already taught her dog to calm down, an assumption that I find highly unlikely.

 

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Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

[Shawna]

Thank you Margaret, my dog is very calm. To not be calm gets you a snap on the collar. Darcy was quite able to lay down and snooze off and on through the trial.

 

I saw a woman struggling with a pup who was literally running on the spot at times and just jumping straight up and down the rest of the time. She had a pinch collar on it and most certainly didn't have a clue what to do with it. She blamed the dogs behaviour on the sire and his breeding, however, I saw a few other pups from this same sire who, although excited, were never out of control. I didn't know which I wanted to do more, smack the woman or give her a hug and say "Come on honey, let me teach you a thing or two."

 

So, although your suggestion of learning to calm down may be a good one, it doesn't apply to Darcy. But you had no way of knowing that till now.

 

As for dogs not having "language", you are correct in that they don't have language such as we do, however, they do have methods of communication both in vocalization and in body language. The latter having been proved to be a learned thing. Dogs that have not been socialized as puppies lack certain body language, but when the dogs are later socialized as adults they begin to pick up different "skills" so to speak, which enable them to enter a group of dogs without the fear or threat of aggression that they once showed or had shown to them (I am over simplifying the studies for convenience of time). This proves both that dogs do in fact have language of a sort and that they learn from other dogs. This has also been shown to some extent in horses.

 

I have no doubt dogs can learn from each other in particular situations, my surprise in her behaviour was that this was not a "trick" or a simple obedience command but a complex mix of behaviours to produce a single outcome. That was where the question came, is it possible that our excedingly intelligent breed has the capabilities to learn from such situations. Not neccesarily the exact moves to become a trial dog, however, perhaps the idea of how to move in a more forceful manner, how to more effectively use body language to move the flock with a greater power.

[Guest PrairieFire]

http://www.bordercollie.org/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000118.html

 

That's the link I was referring to if you guys are interested...

 

Shawna - weren't you saying in earlier posts that your dog gets a bit hyped and has trouble with buzzing stock?

 

I think that's what Bill F. was referring to and certainly what I was referring to...not behaviour while watching, but behaviour while doing...

 

"Having a method of communication" and "Having a language" are very seperate and distinct things...one cannot communicate abstract ideas without a language - one can communicate actions language or not - by demonstrating...

 

Many times older dogs are used to "help" younger dogs on stock - that is a truism...but they don't teach by "language" they teach by "demonstration".

 

This demonstration can be good or bad - BUT IT IS ESSENTIALLY OUT OF THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE HANDLER...and that is why most handlers choose to utilize different methods.

 

The fact that your dog MAY have learned some behaviours is due to demonstration, not language...or is, perhaps, simply coincidence as you asked...you cannot ask your dog, but he can demonstrate it.

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

[Shawna]

"...not behaviour while watching but behaviour while doing..."

 

Understood. No, this is no longer a problem. This has been effectively cured in past exercises.

 

As for the "language" issue, we have basically said the same thing.

 

"Many times older dogs are used to "help" younger dogs on stock... This demonstration can be good or bad... and that is why most handlers choose to utilize different methods."

 

So then Darcy could very well have "learned" the necessary body language by watching the other dogs.

 

Yes, I know that I will never know for sure whether or not she just suddenly grew up that weekend or if she actually learned something, however, it is an interesting thought.

[Shawna]

Oh, and thanks for the link!

[Amy]

Teaching and learning from demostration is definitely a way dogs learn from each other.

 

They are not going to learn perfection as in the perfect open run...or how to handle that nasty ewe..they are going to learn behavior.

 

Margaret brought up her puppy..that's a good point..In my puppy classes I can go down the line and tell you if the puppy came from a pet store, backyard breeder, or someone like Bill.

 

A pet store puppy has it own set of problems starting with housebreaking. A backyard breeder puppy ususally thinks it's the crown prince and already has a mess of bad behaviors. A puppy from someone like Bill just rolls with the flow..Crates, cleaness, being with older dogs, having it feet touched, being gently corrected etc. are all just part of life.

[Jeanne Bell]

Hi Bill and Margaret et al

 

In reference to the crate training, I got a guard dog puppy this spring. She was very small, so when I put her in a stall with 3 yearling ewes, I left her crate in there so she had somewhere to escape. She lay by the door for about 3 days, and used it as a home base to explore from and scurry into when frightened. When we moved her out to a paddock, we built her a creep pen and left the crate inside the creep.

 

When it was time to take her to the vet's for her rabies shot, she rode calmly in her crate. I was glad then that I had allowed her to use the crate as a den. When the time came to lock her in it and do something scary, she was unrattled. Much better way to "crate train" than the forced solitary confinement.

 

Jeanne

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Wow! I have learned a lot from this thread. Lots of interesting points and thoughtful comments. Jeanne this guard dog phenomonon blows my mind. Thank you for discussing it. For a person like me who has spent most of her time in very mainstream dogs and horses, this is a fascinating and intimidating topic. To me some of the guard dogs described on this board really seem to test the boundaries of current definitions of "dog," at least in so much as the word refers to an animal that is a pet, or an animal that is tame or even an animal that connects with humans more than any other species. Am I wrong to think that?

 

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Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

[Smokjbc]

As the days go by with Miss Nelly Belly, I am convinced that border collie learning and human learning have a great deal in common.>>Margaret

 

Oh no.. there cannot be two Nelly-Bellys' in this world . My Nellie is also.. Nellie the Elephant (her namesake), Nellie-Belly or in a particularly fanciful mood "Nellie-Belissimo". Of course everyone I know has made the comment "I hope you don't end up with a "Nervous Nellie".. ha ha. With a name like Nelly, your pup is sure to be a good one!

 

I let my now kicked out boyfriend name her, so I can't take all the credit- but somehow the name just fits her.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Yes, Nell is such a perfect name. A great starting point for all sorts of great name silliness in the house. (No mention of "nervous Nellie yet though, just doesn't fit a 9 week pup who is perfectly happy to roughhouse with a 2 yr old gentle ben of a boxer.)

 

Out on our walks the practicality of her grown up name, "Nell" has already become apparent too. It's lovely and simple.It seems like such a perfect name for a working border collie: short and sharp, long and drawn out, loud or quiet. Repeat it. Hook it on a command. It's such a dandy name. And of course, I can take none of the credit. Mary and Bill named her. She shares this name with a highly accomplished brace dog in the kennel across the water from which her mother came.

 

Hey, and a bit off the topic: nobody warned me about those eyes. Clear brown eyes that consider you, and seem to say, "Hmmm, so just what are you up to today, you curious lady?

 

And Smok, it just goes to show you that even good for nothing banished boyfriends have something to offer!

 

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Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 09-22-2002).]

[Jeanne Bell]

Margaret,

 

I'm very green on the guard dog issue, as this is the first one I've raised. Just like Border Collies, buy from a set of working parents that you like. I was, quite frankly, scared to death by the idea of a guard dog. However, I purchased from a person whose dogs I liked. The size of his operation is similar to mine and he has young children like us.

 

The puppy was completely unsocialized when I got her at 9 weeks, but it didn't take long for her to calm down and become friendly.

 

For us, the hardest part about raising this guard dog puppy has been ignoring her. She's a real cutie, but so far we've done well and she is strongly bonded to her flock, yet submissive to my family. She never enters our yard and the only contact she gets with us is once per day when I feed her or when I tie her up to train dogs.

 

Our predator situation demanded the addition of this dog and I'm very pleased so far.

 

Jeanne

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Thanks so much Jeanne. I have young children too, and your reply anticipates my questions and concerns.

 

Predators...coyotes primarily? I have a terrible time including them in my "circle of life" philosophy. Heretofore my hostility was entirely frivolous: they ruin the terrier hunting because they can drastically reduce groundhog/fox populations.

 

"Silly old terrierwoman, who would regret the loss of groundhogs, except you?!"

 

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Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

[Pipedream Farm]

Isn't it possibly that Darcy simply developed a bit more eye while watching the runs which then altered the way she works stock?

 

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Mark Billadeau

[Shawna]

That would be a possibility, that would fall into the growing up category I suppose.

 

She certainly does have more eye since then. She has more presence all round. There is something there, a controled power and confidence, that never existed before. Everytime I've taken her out since, she gets a little stronger. It really is like having a new dog.

[tucknjill]

Jeanne,

Did you get my email about the Julie Simpson lessons? Wasnt sure, so I thought I would catch you here...

 

Thanks Sam

 

PS please respond privately...thanks!

[P. Sherwood]

No question that Fire learns all kinds of behaviour from other dogs. His Lab friend taught him to "find it"--really search for, and sniff out, a lost ball. Fire rarely uses his nose, relying on spectacular eyesight instead, so this was an obviously learned behavior. However, he wasn't just observing when he learned it. Can they learn from seeing? I wouldn't put anything past a border collie.