What is normal for a dog that is just starting?

[mariosmom]

A year and a half ago I acquired a 6 year old BC (possibly mixed with aussie or kelpie) from a local shelter. He had never seen the interior of a house, was dramatically underweight, and was infested with parasites. It took nearly six months to get him to a healthy physically and mentally. He was shy, nervous, and terrified of many things...except the things he could herd. I did some basic obedience classes with him and introduced him to agility, but he had absolutely no interest in it. He did enjoy herding the cats, other dogs, rodents, etc. so I contacted a local trainer. I attended a few trials hosted on her property and was very impressed.

 

We have been in lessons for a couple of months and I have seen some very positive changes in his behavior, both at home and when herding. But I do not know if his behavior is considered normal, or if it's from bad handling. He puts a lot of pressure on the sheep, which of course sends them into a frenzy. We have spent the past few weeks attempting to show him where his balance point (I guess this is the right term) should be, but he gets so anxious about the whole thing that he cannot work in a small pen without sending the sheep flying. He is better in a slightly larger area, but he still will not slow down...everything is fast fast fast. He will slow down once the sheep are together and he knows he has control of them (if they are in close proximity).

 

He also will not down, or even come close. He will stand, but refuses to down in the presence of sheep, even if I use treats or try to coax him into the position. Is this again related to some sort of anxiety or confidence issues? Or is it possible that's normal herding behavior for a non BC herding dog?

 

I will admit I know next to nothing about herding, or handling. I have recently ordered "Herding Dogs: Progressive Training" and hope this will help point me in the right direction. Any advice would be great, as I am sort of in the dark here.

[hsnrs]

You will love Vergil's book. We have also read Top Trainers Talk About Starting a Sheepdog and also enjoy the ideas.

[bcnewe2]

What does your trainer think about you dog?

[mariosmom]

hsnrs- I will look into that book as well. Thank you.

 

bcnewe2- She thinks he is anxious about keeping the sheep together, but doesn't understand fully to look to the human for guidance. He is that way with much of everything...he will try to figure it out himself before looking to me or anyone else for help (which I attribute to lack of human contact and no socialization for the majority of his life). He has been very quick to pick up stand, there, come by, that will do, and away in the round pen, which she was impressed with. She thinks that over time he will become less anxious as he learns more from working stock. I am inclined to believe this is true, but again, since I have no experience, I do not know whether this is right or not. If I had had him his whole life and knew his back ground I would be less concerned, but I don't and unfortunately never will.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

hsnrs- I will look into that book as well. Thank you.

 

bcnewe2- She thinks he is anxious about keeping the sheep together, but doesn't understand fully to look to the human for guidance. He is that way with much of everything...he will try to figure it out himself before looking to me or anyone else for help (which I attribute to lack of human contact and no socialization for the majority of his life). He has been very quick to pick up stand, there, come by, that will do, and away in the round pen, which she was impressed with. She thinks that over time he will become less anxious as he learns more from working stock. I am inclined to believe this is true, but again, since I have no experience, I do not know whether this is right or not. If I had had him his whole life and knew his back ground I would be less concerned, but I don't and unfortunately never will.

 

 

My take on this dog is that he is strong and probably quite confident and doesn't need any help from the handler in his own mind. I would get a stop on him as quickly as possible and move out of the round pen to a 1/2 acre field once you have the stop on him. It sounds to me like he has been worked on stock prlor to you getting him and that is why he is catching on so quickly. Once you have the stop on him ( you can read some of the advice I have given others on the expert list) start doing short gathers with him and let him use his natural balance to fetch the sheep to you. You can do this by moving yourself to change the balance point so that he moves to proper balance in order to keep bringing the sheep to you. Do lots of walking backwards with lots of turns both sharp and slow and I'm quite sure that in a few weeks this dog will be working for you. Stay with your trainer as you are a novice and need all the help you can get but you need to get a stop on the dog soon. If you need more help get back to me and between myself and your trainer we can bring what appears to be a pretty good dog along. Bob Stephens

[bcnewe2]

My take on this dog is that he is strong and probably quite confident and doesn't need any help from the handler in his own mind.

 

I would tend to think that same thing. Or that the lie down was worked on, failed and given up on in leiu of a stand so the dog thinks it won.

On a strong dog I would insist on a lie down, helps them remember who's working for whom. But on a dog with less confidence I'd probably let them stand for a while, letting them sort the confidence thing out a bit more before I became insistant on what makes them uncomfortable.

 

I have seen dogs that were uncomfortable working in small spaces, they tend to loosen up in bigger spaces but, if it's a dog looking to run the show then I would insist on doing what I want rather than what the dog wants.

 

I think Bob's advise is spot on.

 

I have a dog that I've had since 5 weeks old. He was horrible in small spaces and gave me grief anytime he could. He is a very strong confident dog. What he taught me was I needed to be serious about what I wanted, insist on it, but also be right in what I was asking or he'd really fight me as it didn't make since to him and he was bull headed enough to argue...allot!

He has turned into a nice dog but it took years for him to train me, errr I mean me train him and me to figure out how to work with his stregnth instead of fighting it.

 

I fought this dog for everything, in the end as we both grew I think I helped him to become a bit sticky fighting the lie down so much, as he's now never quite sure I mean "get up". I think it's cause I was nit picking him for years so the messages he was getting were confused. He does have a solid lie down now! So there is hope!

 

If you like and trust your trainer then stick with her, she is the one that has hands on experience in stockwork and your dog. What we offer here is comes only from your written discriptions. What I thought I saw and knew when first starting was way off from what truely was happening. If you don't like or trust your trainer (listen to the little voice in your head) then find a new trainer!

Good luck and don't give up on that lie down.

[mariosmom]

Bob and Kristen-

 

Thank you both so much for your advice. I thought there were enough experts to put me in the right direction and I was right.

 

I will definitely check out the expert list as to how to get a stop on him. So basically if I keep him on his toes and throw some things at him where he has to focus on what I'm doing, he'll realize I'm an important part of the equation?

 

I have no intentions of dropping my trainer, as I trust in her and her abilities (she has been training, trialing, and running her own sheep farm for the last forty years) and I would be completely in the dark if I didn't have a trainer (I am greener than grass when it comes to all of this).

 

Kristen, what would you advise to "encourage" the down from him? He absolutely will not do it in the presence of sheep. He will down at home, in the park, in the store, etc. but if there are sheep around there is no chance. I have tried coaxing with treats (yeah right), pushing gently on his withers (he stiffened up), stepping on the leash while pushing on his withers (this just made him panic, so I am not trying that again), and did not have success with anything. He knows what the command means, just won't do it. But he will stop working when asked to, so I don't see why down is that big of a thing for him.

[Blackdawgs]

<Sigh>

 

I have the same problem with my dog. She'll down from 40-60 feet away in my backyard, but at liberty on sheep forget about it. I keep a line on her, so I can step on it to get a stop. She'll down if I walk up to her and growl, but by moving, I effect the sheep.

 

I'm sure that many trainers would tell me to be more firm with her, but this is a rescue dog with whom I've spent 2+ years trying to gain her trust and build a relationship.

 

I'm hoping that by rewarding the down by immediately sending her back to the sheep, she'll eventually get the idea that the faster she downs, the faster she can re-engage the sheep. I don't bother to reward with food because sheep are the ultimate reinforcement.

 

I've worked on the down by taking her into the sheep field on a 6 ft leash and allowing her to drive the sheep with me asking for periodic downs followed by "walk-up". This has seemed to help because in the beginning of her sheep experience, she flat out refused to down. I have no idea if this strategy is correct, but it seemed to help my dog to understand down in the context of sheep.

[rac]

I noticed that Bob said "Once you have the stop on him..". He didn't say 'once you have the down on him'. I have seen people fight battles with dogs about this issue and all but turn the dog off the work completely by insisting the dog lie down. Insisting on a lie-down in the presence of livestock may be asking the dog to assume a position of submission, and the dog may simply be unwilling to do this. You can fight this battle if you want, but if it were me I'd get a good stop and move on. You must be smart enough to choose the battles that are worth fighting, this one, IMO, is not worth fighting. If the dog stops to a command of 'stop' or 'stand' then give it the sheep back once you see its feet are quiet for a second. Let the dog decide which is the best position at the time (it knows better than you). I have trained many dogs this way and ALL my dogs, even the young Nursery dogs, are happy to stop when I ask them, even at trials. Why??? Because I never got into a pi$$ing contest about it with them (they don't associate 'badness' with being asked to stop), and when they give me the 'stand' they get the sheep back right away. We're out there having fun the whole time and not pulling teeth about something that doesn't amount to anything. The words "lie down" left my vocabulary after I trained my first dog.

 

Tell a dog to lie down when it doesn't want to at the pen after it has worked some tough range ewes around a trial course then tell me what happens after that.

 

Re-read Kirsten's reply. Once she finally got the 'down' on her dog she had a hard time getting it back up.

 

Think of all the stuff you could be teaching your dog with the time you spend running through the sheep at your dog, growling with your stick up in the air, insisting it lie down. Aren't you also teaching it to mistrust you a little while you're doing this ?

 

Ray

[dracina]

I have very little experience, but FWIW, I agree with Ray. I never understood that insistance upon a belly-on-the-ground down on sheep. A stop (which is absolutely necessary) works the same, in my opinion. I think that every handler has his own idea, and it is a matter of preference.

 

I have a dog like the OP describes. Keep going, work on the big things and don't worry too much about the smaller things.

 

Best of luck,

Karrin

[Sue R]

I noticed that Bob said "Once you have the stop on him..". He didn't say 'once you have the down on him'. I have seen people fight battles with dogs about this issue and all but turn the dog off the work completely by insisting the dog lie down. Insisting on a lie-down in the presence of livestock may be asking the dog to assume a position of submission, and the dog may simply be unwilling to do this. You can fight this battle if you want, but if it were me I'd get a good stop and move on. You must be smart enough to choose the battles that are worth fighting, this one, IMO, is not worth fighting. If the dog stops to a command of 'stop' or 'stand' then give it the sheep back once you see its feet are quiet for a second. Let the dog decide which is the best position at the time (it knows better than you). I have trained many dogs this way and ALL my dogs, even the young Nursery dogs, are happy to stop when I ask them, even at trials. Why??? Because I never got into a pi$$ing contest about it with them (they don't associate 'badness' with being asked to stop), and when they give me the 'stand' they get the sheep back right away. We're out there having fun the whole time and not pulling teeth about something that doesn't amount to anything. The words "lie down" left my vocabulary after I trained my first dog.

 

Tell a dog to lie down when it doesn't want to at the pen after it has worked some tough range ewes around a trial course then tell me what happens after that.

 

Re-read Kirsten's reply. Once she finally got the 'down' on her dog she had a hard time getting it back up.

 

Think of all the stuff you could be teaching your dog with the time you spend running through the sheep at your dog, growling with your stick up in the air, insisting it lie down. Aren't you also teaching it to mistrust you a little while you're doing this ?

 

Ray

Thanks, Ray (and Bob), for this reminder. I have been very guilty of this.

[kelpiegirl]

Great post-al advice I am also guilty, but with my pup, I see that I am going to be more enlightened, because he has good balance, and will stop when the action stops. If he wants to stand, so be it. Thanks so much for the timely heads up!

[somewhereinusa]

Ray said what I had been thinking, just not put into words yet. Some things to consider about making a dog lie down.

 

I think that too many people use it as a crutch, the dog is pushy so they lay it down to get it farther back from the sheep. this in itself causes a couple of problems.

When the dog gets up, that is two movements. Getting up and then moving forward. This may not always have the effect that you wanted.

 

The dog, especially a young dog, is thinking "they're getting away, they're getting away, they're getting away" "I've got to go get them,NOW, really fast" Even if he waits until

you say "walk up" or give a flank, it is going to be too fast and too tight and the process starts all over again.

 

A better solution to this is to teach the dog proper distance and maybe add a backoff command (different than a move back command)

 

A really confidant dog does not rush into stock, quite the contrary. Work on building confidence. Walk with them, help them. It's a TEAM effort

Don't just stand in one spot sending the dog on outruns, then go running up the field yelling because he is pushing too hard or fast

 

If you feel the need to have a dog lay down while near stock, there are plenty of places it can be done quite easily. How about when he stops on his feet and the sheep drift a little

having him lie down. (Say it quietly and don't sound like you're mad at him) Or, call him off a bit and have him lie down. In both of those cases, I wouldn't be very far away, that can come

later. While I'm on that subject, why are you yelling at your dog at all? From the very beginning, speak softly, just under what you think what they might be able to hear, they will learn to

listen. When things are going well whisper, it's a lot of fun and the dogs love it. LEARN TO WHISTLE. I don't care how you say it, when the dog is a looooong way away, if you only have voice

commands, you have to YELL to be heard. Yelling is yelling.

 

I have had many dogs that had no idea what lie down meant, (or sit). I didn't have a need for it, so I never taught it

 

When you watch the top handlers working their dogs, how many of them ever lay their dogs down while the dog is in the process of actually moving sheep? Even if they say "lie down" that probably isn't really what they mean. Do you think they spent a lot of time in the beginning having the dog lay down while moving sheep and that it magically evolved into something else? Why teach something now, and have to reteach later to get the result you want. Reteaching is much harder.

 

I've just put more words on paper than since I was in school, and I've got to get on the road again.

 

Dick

[rac]

mariosmom, I just have to say one more thing after reading your post again. Please don't ever use food treats again while you're working your dog on livestock. The work itself is the reward. In fact you shouldn't overdo saying things like, 'good boy' too much either for the same reason. Try not to confuse things.

 

I thought Bob's advice was spot-on. Short gathers and close serpentine fetching in that 1/2 acre field are what is going to get your dog keen on balance. And while you're doing this you can firm up the 'stop'. Good luck.

 

Ray

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi Mariosmom!

 

I'm a newish person here, mainly lurk, but I hope you don't mind if I add my voice to the mix.

 

My good ol' dog, Jesse, who will be 11 in February, was a rescue I got at age 2. He was also anxious and prone to bite, (though he was more fearful on the field than your boys sounds) but my point is, I have dealt with a rescue mentality. If he does have a past history of working (read: chasing) livestock on his own, that plus his anxiety would be doubly contributing factors to your guy's behaviors. Time, patience and consistency will be your best help with that.

 

However, I will echo those who say, don't insist on a belly-down "Lie down" this soon in his training. In fact, my suggestion for you is, STOP it! At this point, just be happy if you get a solid stop. If he will remain in place on his feet, take that. My Jesse learned a standing stop long before he was mentally prepared to actually lie down, and he still often stops on his feet. Some BCs simply work more upright than others.

 

My guess is that your boy is too wound up to lie down, because he thinks that by lying down, he loses power over his sheep, and he can't handle that, yet. IMHO, the one thing you DON'T want is to make Lie Down a fight. Lie Down should simply mean, "hold on a sec, I'm going to tell you something else to do, so stop right there a moment." So, my suggestion is to let him stop as he will, so long as he gives you a stop.

 

If he's really not used to partnership with a human, make sure you're doing as many things with just him, alone, as you can. Little obedience lessons, going to the post office and bank, taking solitary walks, going for drives, etc. It sounds like you're already on the right track, with him.

 

Also, you might consider how you approach your sheep. Is he pulling and dragging on the leash, when you near the pen? Work on him making a quiet, composed approach with no pulling, and ask him to lie down before you go in, and lie down again while you shut the gate upon entering. It may help get his mind settled.

 

Of course, long-distance training advice is always risky, so take mine with a healthy grain of salt! But I definitely think insisting on his belly to the dirt is too much, at this stage. LOL, and yeah, food training on sheep absolutely does not work for a border collie.

 

Best of luck!

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

P.S.

I will add that a high drive dog will feed directly off the energy you project. If you're excited, he'll get excited. If you stay calm ... he'll be the only one excited out there. Something else to think about.

[mariosmom]

Thank you for the numerous replies everyone! To clarify a few points: I have not and will not yell at this dog. It took me four months to gain this dogs trust and I know that getting rough with him will put that trust in jeopardy. I have not used treats to coax a down in the presence of livestock, just on the same property as the stock were. I understand that the down is something he is not ready for now, and may not be mentally prepared for for a few years. We are currently just getting a stop on him (much to his dismay) and getting him to stand.

 

Last week we returned to the small round pen and worked on his stop. He was much more keen on dashing after the sheep than actually standing and vented his frustration by barking and attempting to chew on the long line. After about 15 or so minutes of this he realized he could still move the sheep without running, so he calmed down a bit. He's starting to get it, I think. I know my confusion does not help matters, but the trainer has been good enough to periodically step in and give him some of the expert guidance he requires.

[Gloria Atwater]

....... We are currently just getting a stop on him (much to his dismay) and getting him to stand.

 

Last week we returned to the small round pen and worked on his stop. He was much more keen on dashing after the sheep than actually standing and vented his frustration by barking and attempting to chew on the long line. After about 15 or so minutes of this he realized he could still move the sheep without running, so he calmed down a bit. He's starting to get it, I think. I know my confusion does not help matters, but the trainer has been good enough to periodically step in and give him some of the expert guidance he requires.

 

 

That's great news! It's going to take time to get through his hard little noggin and dislodge the ideas he has, but you'll get there. He just needs to learn that he still has control, even when he's not going fifty miles per hour. (I may be having this same discussion with my new pup, when I start her next summer!)

 

Just DO make sure your trainer is helping you every step of the way. NEVER be shy about asking for help. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. After all, their job is to train YOU to train your dog.

 

Best of luck, and keep us posted how things progress over time!

Cheers ~

 

Gloria