Long Haired/Smooth Coated Border Collies

[PSmitty]

Hi PSmitty, the photograph (the 2nd one) of your dog looks the spitting image of my Sams coat, i've taken a photo of him this morning, does 'he' have an undercoat? What does an undercoat look like?

 

 

Hi. No, Jack does not have an undercoat. Umm, think of like a pointer or Doberman's coat, and that's what it's like. Very slick.

 

I borrowed this line from Dog.com to describe an undercoat:

 

Most dogs have three types of fur: Undercoat, guard hair and whiskers. The undercoat lies closest to the dog's skin and grows in clusters from a single follicle. The undercoat has a soft, downy appearance and works to protect the skin from cold weather.

 

The guard hairs are harder in texture, thicker in diameter and longer than the downy undercoat. Considered the dog's primary coat, the guard hairs protect the skin from superficial injuries and form an additional layer of insulation to protect the dog from cold weather.

 

On my double coated dog, the undercoat is soft and downy-like as this says. It's what he sheds almost constantly, despite my grooming! It's greyish, soft and fuzzy, where as the outer coat hairs are longer and not as soft. Hope that makes sense.

 

PS. I think Sam is gorgeous!!

[Guest echoica]

A lurcher crossed with a collie is still a lurcher.

However, eventually an injection of greyhound (or similar) blood followed by repeated collie only matings will result in the sight hound component becoming insignificant, and the dogs produced will be recognised as collies.

I don't suppose the shepherds who were outcrossing were bothered what their dogs were called as long as they were good workers. That's just how working dogs are created.

Sometimes you get throwbacks that are unusually leggy for a BC, possibly indicating sighthound blood somewhere - leggier than Sam looks. A lot of short coated BCs are quite small up here.

A lurcher is a sight hound crossed with a dog of another working breed, and which breed that is will depend on the job the dog is intended to do, but hunting by sight rather than scent is the key.

Bedlington terrier x whippet lurchers are quite common, for example.

They can vary from JRT x whippet to GSD x wolfhound - all lurchers.

Nowadays you still get deliberate first cross BC x usually greyhound lurchers but they are bred by lurcher people and often just look like greyhounds with BC markings.

 

You're in murky waters when you start to consider lurchers. This is one -

 

100% lurcher in behaviour.

Running action like a greyhound.

Small head:body ratio like a greyhound.

Ears reminiscent of greyhound or whippet.

Possible dash of BC from the white markings.

Overall appearance like a lab X!

Despite the appearance, he was a lurcher.

 

And another suspect -

 

Similar in size, coat, build and markings.

Main difference he has a scent hound head and brain.

He came from Ireland so a dash of lurcher is very likely and does occasionally show, but he isn't a sight hound in his hunting behaviour so isn't a lurcher.

 

I suspect that the person who you were talking to is more used to the hairier BCs from the south rather than the common working short coat you get further north.

 

Pam

 

Hi Pam, I had never heard of a lurcher until this post. So I googled it. I got Casey (see pic below - brindle dog in the middle) from the SPCA...he is a border collie x greyhound. Does that make him a 'lurcher'??

 

[geonni banner]

I had a Lurcher named Grace. (BC x Greyhound) A woman once stopped me on the street and asked if she was a a Whippet. I said, "No, she's a Lurcher." The woman put on an expression of indignation and snapped, "THAT'S not a very nice thing to say!" I tried to explain what a Lurcher is and I don't think she believed a word I said. She bent over and stroked Grace's ears and cooed, "Well I think you're a beautiful, graceful dog!" Then, giving me a last look of distaste, she went on her way.

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Pam, I had never heard of a lurcher until this post. So I googled it. I got Casey (see pic below - brindle dog in the middle) from the SPCA...he is a border collie x greyhound. Does that make him a 'lurcher'??

 

 

Echoica, my god doesn't Casey have such long legs!

 

I bet she can run, run, and run!

 

And Casey has something human about her face which i just can't pinpoint exactly what it is...

 

Casey looks a little similar to:-

 

[BorderCollieSam]

PS. I think Sam is gorgeous!!

 

Thanks PSmitty, he is my pride and joy

[BorderCollieSam]

I suspect that the person who you were talking to is more used to the hairier BCs from the south rather than the common working short coat you get further north.

Pam

 

You are right, i have only seen two other short haired collies in the year that i have had Sam.

 

One was waiting outside of Tesco with this man who was waiting for his wife, i don't think he had the slightest idea about collies as i walked up to him and asked him if he had his BC for very long, and he told me that he isn't a BC he is a cross/mungrel that he rescued from the RSPCA, i asked him if he was sure he wasn't a BC because he looks very much identical to my short haired BC (unfortunately i didn't have Sam with me at the time to show him) and i told him to Google short haired BC and i think he will be very surprised to find that he has in fact a BC, i think the man thought i was mad, the man was insisting that because he didn't have the long hair of the BC he is a X, but this dog had the identical shaped face, nose, head, hair, build, everything that Sam has.

[BorderCollieSam]

So looking at Sams photo above, do you think he has an undercoat?

 

This is Sams mum and dad, the top one is Sams Dad, and the bottom one is a photo of Sams dad and his mum together, Sam has taken the colouring from his Dad, but i think he's taken the size/build and his coat from his mum, as Sam isn't that big yet, and i assume he has reached his full height now he is 13 months old? But i think he will fill out a lot more yet?

 

 

P.S. Would you say they have lurcher in them?

 

The farmer claimed he had bred his own working dogs all the way through his life and they were always BC.

[mum24dog]

I got Casey (see pic below - brindle dog in the middle) from the SPCA...he is a border collie x greyhound. Does that make him a 'lurcher'??

 

Yes, he is.

I'd have another like a shot.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

One was waiting outside of Tesco with this man who was waiting for his wife, i don't think he had the slightest idea about collies as i walked up to him and asked him if he had his BC for very long, and he told me that he isn't a BC he is a cross/mungrel that he rescued from the RSPCA, i asked him if he was sure he wasn't a BC because he looks very much identical to my short haired BC (unfortunately i didn't have Sam with me at the time to show him) and i told him to Google short haired BC and i think he will be very surprised to find that he has in fact a BC, i think the man thought i was mad, the man was insisting that because he didn't have the long hair of the BC he is a X, but this dog had the identical shaped face, nose, head, hair, build, everything that Sam has.

 

I think some rescues cover themselves by calling dogs crosses if they aren't entirely sure.

 

Would you say they have lurcher in them?

 

Who knows? They look like perfectly normal farm collies to me, although not necessarily all BC. They could have Welsh Sheep Dog blood.

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...DG%26ie%3DUTF-8

 

Pam

[BorderCollieSam]

I think some rescues cover themselves by calling dogs crosses if they aren't entirely sure.

Who knows? They look like perfectly normal farm collies to me, although not necessarily all BC. They could have Welsh Sheep Dog blood.

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...DG%26ie%3DUTF-8

 

Pam

 

Very interesting link Mum24, i was just comparing those photos of the Welsh Sheepdog (the one on the right) with Sams body shape from the front, because he does have a very broad and muscular looking chest section, and i thought he was definetely Welsh Sheepdog comparing the chest section, however i then did a search for BC and some of those also had the muscular chest section....

 

I suppose its one of those things where you will never get to the bottom of it......

 

I've tried to take a closer photo of Sams hair/coat type, do you think it looks like he has an undercoat? How can i confirm this?

 

[Guest echoica]

thanks all! very neat to learn this little tidbit today. 'lurcher'... i always thought casey was special hehe

 

people ask if he is a whippet, quite often actually. and yes he does have very long legs...he is like the runway model of dogs. you should see him run. just like a greyhound. he looks like a horse or baby deer people also say. as far as his personality goes i think he is much more like a border collie. trying to herd from time to time, frozen with the intense gaze/head down, and very smart...i have taught him soooo many tricks.

 

http://echoica.violetsteel.com/archive/20091219%20027.jpg

http://echoica.violetsteel.com/archive/20091219%20031.jpg

http://echoica.violetsteel.com/archive/20091219%20034.jpg

[PSmitty]

I've tried to take a closer photo of Sams hair/coat type, do you think it looks like he has an undercoat? How can i confirm this?

 

It doesn't look like he does, or not a thick one at least.

 

I tried to get some pics for you. (What can I say? It's a slow day here. It's either this or write my Christmas cards...) Here's my smooth BC with an undercoat and my BC mix without.

 

Undercoat:

 

No undercoat:

 

ETA: Eek! Man hands!

[mum24dog]

i always thought casey was special hehe

 

All lurchers are "special".

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Very interesting link Mum24, i was just comparing those photos of the Welsh Sheepdog (the one on the right) with Sams body shape from the front, because he does have a very broad and muscular looking chest section, and i thought he was definetely Welsh Sheepdog comparing the chest section, however i then did a search for BC and some of those also had the muscular chest section....

 

Working dogs are defined by what they do, not what they look like. Some are easily identifiable like the sable/whites, others aren't.

Welsh Sheep Dogs vary as much as BCs in appearance.

The difference is in the way they work - although you will get BCs that work like Welsh SDs.

 

Pam

[Guest echoica]

It doesn't look like he does, or not a thick one at least.

 

I tried to get some pics for you. (What can I say? It's a slow day here. It's either this or write my Christmas cards...) Here's my smooth BC with an undercoat and my BC mix without.

 

Undercoat:

...

 

No undercoat:

...

 

ETA: Eek! Man hands!

 

that first picture looks like my hair right now - in need of a major dye job so don't worry about thinking you have man hands lol

[BorderCollieSam]

So Sam may be a BC or he may be a Welsh Sheepdog, isn't it annoying that you can't tell, not that it bothers me either way because i'm really happy with him and he's a loving loyal and very energetic dog, but it would be nice knowing what dog i have!

[Cynthia P]

I'm surprised that you have legislation covering pedigree registration. I can't really see why the law would want to get involved unless it is to try and prevent spurious fake registries being set up and used by the puppy farmers to bump up their prices.

 

Have I got this right? The CBCA is happy for its members to compete in CKC canine activities, but if one of those dogs is shown in conformation classes, it will withdraw registration rendering it ineligible for any CKC events? Or is it just the person showing who will lose their membership of the CBCA but the dog remains registered and therefore eligible?

 

What are the practical implications of

 

As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA.?

 

What advantages are there for a person to be a member of the CBCA?

 

Pam

 

According to the pedigree livestock act; in order to be considered a purebred animal or advertised as such the animal must be registered with the approved registry. In Canada that is the CBCA

 

Those that show in conformation in Canada can currently register with the AKC; We we sign up for the CBCA yearly or for a lifetime, you sign a form saying you will not show in conformation. I'm not sure it is policed, ie we don't go to the conformation shows and ask for pedigree info on the border collies being shown. I"m sure that the majority of the show border collies (and I really only know of one breeder of show border collies) show in the USA and register AKC.

 

We were (as CBCA members) seriously upset about the inclusion without discussion of the Border Collie in the CKC.

 

The CBCA has a national championship once a year hosted in the west or east (alternating). The only other benefit for CBCA members...being able to register your dogs; and being involved in a registery that has no other purpose than raising border collies for working jobs

 

cynthia

[mum24dog]

Thanks Cynthia, but I'm still not sure of the concept of being a member of the CBCA.

Is registration of a dog not for life? Is it dependent on the owner being a member?

 

Pam

[Cynthia P]

Thanks Cynthia, but I'm still not sure of the concept of being a member of the CBCA.

Is registration of a dog not for life? Is it dependent on the owner being a member?

 

Pam

Yes the registration on the dog is for life and I am dont' think that if the registered dog is found to do confirmation that they can do anything to revoke the dogs registration. The person's membership would be revolked. Registering animals is 2X as expensive for non CBCA members. So your litter registration would be double the cost. You still must register your animals with the CBCA to have them considered purebred animals in Canada. If for instance the confirmation person registered the animal with the AKC the offspring would not be eligible to be registered in Canada. These dogs would not be able to qualify for the CBCA national finals; They can run in all events (herding) but not the finals.

 

Also theorectically the AKC registered dog could not be sold as a purebred in Canada.

 

This is from the CBCA website

 

CKC and the Border Collie

Despite our efforts CKC has implemented a policy where border collies can not compete in all of their events. This does not change the fact that CBCA is the only body in Canada that can register border collies as purebred. Border Collies will now also compete in conformation classes of CKC and to do so CKC has adopted the (UK)Kennel Club standards for this breed.

 

CBCA feels that any person showing border collies in conformation (and as such breeding to these "show" standards) is acting contrary to our aim which is to preserve the working border collie and breed for working ability. For this reason membership is not open to such persons and any member doing so will automatically forfeit his/her membership.

 

Also in order to preserve our relationship with ISDS and with ABC any offspring of dogs shown in conformation will be registered in the "B" registry. As any dog registered in the "B" registry these dogs of course have the opportunity to change to the "A" registry by proofing their working ability.

 

 

 

Cynthia

[mum24dog]

Yes the registration on the dog is for life and I am dont' think that if the registered dog is found to do confirmation that they can do anything to revoke the dogs registration.

 

So the breeder registers the litter, sells to someone who is not a member who shows in conformation and there is nothing the CBCA can do except not automatically give full registration to any offspring of that dog?

I appreciate that all this is hypothetical since few dogs bred for working ability with no attention to appearance would meet show standards.

 

Pam

[Cynthia P]

So the breeder registers the litter, sells to someone who is not a member who shows in conformation and there is nothing the CBCA can do except not automatically give full registration to any offspring of that dog?

I appreciate that all this is hypothetical since few dogs bred for working ability with no attention to appearance would meet show standards.

 

Pam

 

 

that's where we are right now Pam; And since it has only been 1 year I guess we will see how things progress this year. It'll be interesting to see when the first person is denied membership; the conformation breeder i know about probably breeds 15 litters a year...she has between 40-50 collies on her property at any given time...a bit crazy

[juliepoudrier]

BCS,

If the farmer sold you Sam as a border collie and has worked and raised border collies all his adult life, why would you doubt that Sam is a border collie? They come in all shapes, sizes, and coat types. If you brush/comb Sam and soft downy hair comes off in the comb, that's undercoat. I have border collies ranging in weight from barely 30 pounds to nearly 50 pounds, and with coats from slick (little or no undercoat) to smooth (with undercoat) to medium (with or without appreciable undercoat) to rough (definitely with undercoat) and anything from prick ears to airplane to 3/4-tipped to sort of floppy. I have some who are broader and some who are thinner. I have broad-headed dogs down to what a dear friend and shearer calls "Needle Nose" (he prefers broad-headed dogs). I spend exactly zero time worrying whether my dogs are indeed border collies. They are.

 

The dogs you posted look like many other border collies I've seen. Why would you even think they might be something else, or have lurcher or sight hound or anything else in there? And if they did (because frankly, way on back and maybe even closer up, they *might*), what difference would it make? Clearly the farmer you bought Sam from uses his dogs for work, so by a working definition, they're border collies. You don't intend to use Sam on stock, so the working definition is irrelevant, and as has been noted on this forum many times before, the only real way to define a border collie is by the work and not by how they look. Sam's parents work, so that should be enough to call him a border collie, shouldn't it?

 

J.

[JohnLloydJones]

...the only real way to define a border collie is by the work and not by how they look. Sam's parents work, so that should be enough to call him a border collie, shouldn't it?

Almost, but not quite. Welsh Sheepdogs work too; though as we have discussed previously their style of working is different. Shouldn't be that hard to tell if you could see how the parents work.

[juliepoudrier]

That doesn't change the fact that the farmer who bred them said they were border collies. If welsh sheepdogs are popular for work in Wales then it seems to me that someone using them to manage their livestock would in fact admit that's what they are rather than calling them border collies, ergo BCS shouldn't need to worry about whether he was one or the other. And frankly, if you don't trust the person you're buying from to tell you the truth about his/her dogs, then why would you even do business with them?

 

J.

[BorderCollieSam]

Hi Julie, the person i spoke to the other day whilst out walking Sam asked if he had lurcher in him, and thats why i started questioning things, as Sam is obviously a lot different looking compared with the long haired Border Collies that people have rescued from the RSPCA centres close to where i live here in the South-East, however as somebody else pointed out i went further North to acquire Sam and he is from a working farm and that area of the country tend to use the Short-Haired BC's.

 

Its not so much i don't trust the farmer, i paid practically nothing for Sam (£100.00) compared with (£350.00) average which was advertised from family homes that had litters for sale here in the South-East. I have pretty much become friends with the farmer, he emailed me some more photos the other day of his dogs in the snow in his fields, and a few months ago emailed me some photos of his Sheep in the lambing season. And he also invited us around for lunch a few months ago when we were on our way to Scotland, we stopped off to see him for a few hours and he gave me a ride on his Quad Bike and then got his dogs (Sams dad) to fetch a load of sheep down from high up in the hills which was pretty impressive, so i trust him and he is a really nice guy.

 

However, although he is a really nice person, he is very much a farmer who you can tell relies purely on his dogs for their work, and this perception coupled with the chap i was speaking to the other day who asked if he had lurcher in him, made me think that he 'may' have bred his dogs with something else in the past in an attempt to make them either more efficient, if that is possible...

 

Also, with regard to your question about the way his dogs work. I have watched a lot of sheep dog trials and the shepherd is whistling every 30 seconds or so with a special dog whistle, and the dog keeps downing and waiting until the shepherd gives the next command, Sams parents and the other two working dogs the farmer has don't appear to work that way. Neither does the farmer have one of those whistles (well at least he wasn't using it the day we were there) he just seemed to whistle with his own mouth, tongue, lips. We were waiting in the yard next to a field with a sheep pen in it and the farmer went off on his quad bike, then the dogs shot off in front of him and the dogs went off on their own high up in the hills on their own and brought the sheep down from a long distance away without hardly any commands from the farmer, as I said they were quite a distance away.

 

A very different type of farming compared with what i've seen on the sheep dog trials....every movement of the sheep dogs in the trials seem to rely on and respond to and are controlled purely by the whistle from the shepherd, almost like a remote controlled dog, whereas Sams mum/dad seem to do their jobs on their own....very different....

 

Another reason why i question the BC or Welsh Sheepdog breed, is one more reliant on a shepherds instructions than the other?