Jump to content
BC Boards

Long Haired/Smooth Coated Border Collies


Recommended Posts

That doesn't change the fact that the farmer who bred them said they were border collies. If welsh sheepdogs are popular for work in Wales then it seems to me that someone using them to manage their livestock would in fact admit that's what they are rather than calling them border collies, ergo BCS shouldn't need to worry about whether he was one or the other. And frankly, if you don't trust the person you're buying from to tell you the truth about his/her dogs, then why would you even do business with them?

 

J.

 

I wouldn't trust a farmer here to tell the truth about anything unless I knew him well already. It has been common in the past to cross Welsh Sheep Dogs and BCs depending on what style of working is needed. The move to preserve the "purity" of the indigenous Welsh breed is relatively recent.

Since there are plenty of "purebred" BCs with Beardie in their make up, it isn't inconceivable that a Welsh line currently called BCs will have Welsh Sheep Dog in there somewhere.

 

I agree with you though - it really doesn't matter a bit. If a dog behaves like what is commonly recognised as a BC, then it is a BC.

The description of a Welsh Sheep Dog is one with less eye and more independence in working than a BC but there will of course be a lot of overlap between the two depending on the terrain and stock to be worked.

Given that the North Wales hills will be worked by both Welsh Sheep Dogs and BCs it would make sense for dogs to be used with a similar style of working.

It's rather a minefield trying to determine where one ends and the other begins.

 

Pam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

A very different type of farming compared with what i've seen on the sheep dog trials....every movement of the sheep dogs in the trials seem to rely on and respond to and are controlled purely by the whistle from the shepherd, almost like a remote controlled dog, whereas Sams mum/dad seem to do their jobs on their own....very different....

 

Another reason why i question the BC or Welsh Sheepdog breed, is one more reliant on a shepherds instructions than the other?

 

 

completely different....when we work our dogs on the farm they know the job, they work independently and get some instruction from us. When we are trialling we control the movement on the dog a lot more because there are points to be lost and more precision is needed when trialling on 5 sheep than moving 200. If we take the quad bike towards some sheep our dogs know how to gather them.,..they just do it; doesn't make them welsh sheep dogs

 

We have one bitch that was not registered, we don't know her parents but she works like a border collie; she was bred and had a puppy this summer, Sue already works like a border collie; If you saw dixie you'd ask if she was an aussie with a tail...until you saw her work;

 

If the farmer says they are border collies, they are border collies; They come in sizes from very small (sub 13kg) to very large and tall (over 30kg);

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there any vids out there with welsh sheepdogs working?

 

Quite a few if you search for Welsh Sheepdog in You Tube.

 

Here's one -

 

 

The Welsh Sheepdog Society has its own registry like the ISDS and before being granted a breeding licence a dog has to undergo a working assessment.

 

This is what the assessors will be looking for -

 

The dog should be of sound and sturdy physical appearance. It should be able to move a flock of sheep in a masterful manner with a minimum of command and should preferably bark when required or under pressure. High tail carriage is preferred.

 

A dog will fail the assessment if it 'sets' when approaching sheep. Set is defined as a visible lowering of the body towards the ground, and/or stretching of the head and neck forward horizontally or downwards. Watching the sheep steadily or dropping the head slightly is acceptable.

 

Pam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite a few if you search for Welsh Sheep Dog in You Tube.

 

Here's one -

 

 

The Welsh Sheepdog Society has its own registry like the ISDS and before being granted a breeding licence a dog has to undergo a working assessment.

 

This is what the assessors will be looking for -

 

The dog should be of sound and sturdy physical appearance. It should be able to move a flock of sheep in a masterful manner with a minimum of command and should preferably bark when required or under pressure. High tail carriage is preferred.

 

A dog will fail the assessment if it 'sets' when approaching sheep. Set is defined as a visible lowering of the body towards the ground, and/or stretching of the head and neck forward horizontally or downwards. Watching the sheep steadily or dropping the head slightly is acceptable.

 

Pam

 

Wow, looking briefly at the physical appearance of the black/white dog you could be mistaken to think that was in fact a Border Collie.

 

However, as some have mentioned here, they work differently, and that black/white collie was working a lot more loose eyed and a little 'wildly' compared to a fixed eyed BC.....

 

But - he got the job done and was determined which i suppose is the main goal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Julie, the person i spoke to the other day whilst out walking Sam asked if he had lurcher in him, and thats why i started questioning things, as Sam is obviously a lot different looking compared with the long haired Border Collies that people have rescued from the RSPCA centres close to where i live here in the South-East, however as somebody else pointed out i went further North to acquire Sam and he is from a working farm and that area of the country tend to use the Short-Haired BC's.

Have you seen all the threads on this forum with "that's not a border collie!" or some variation thereof for a subject line? If a border collie doesn't look like the show version, the *average* human (i.e., John Q. Public) doesn't recognize the dog as such. I've had someone ask me if my smooth-coated tri was a foxhound. And when I got my first red dog, folks just *knew* he had to be an Aussie (because border collies are black and white, you know). People have seen Lark (tiny, smooth-coated, giant prick ears, tri) and simply said "What is she?" I really confused one poor man who stopped when he saw me working my dogs and asked if Twist was a cattle dog. I understood him to be asking if she worked cattle, so I said "Yes." Later I made a comment about all the dogs in the yard being border collies and he looked at me funny, presumably (as I figured out later) because I had already told him one was a cattle dog (a common mistake for smooth-coated, prick-eared, heavily ticked border collies, though the build really is quite different). None of those comments from people who couldn't really know would ever make me wonder if my dogs are something other than border collies or if the breeder had snuck something else in his lines. Remember that most of the general public is rather ignorant about the variety common within the breed--and I imagine that holds true even in the land where these dogs originated (though maybe less so than here, where folks are so removed from our agricultural roots).

 

Another reason why i question the BC or Welsh Sheepdog breed, is one more reliant on a shepherds instructions than the other?

Cynthia has already answered this, so I'll second what she says. Trials are not farm work--they are meant to represent farm work and you are judged on the precision with which you move the sheep around the course. If you send your dog out to fetch the sheep to you at home and don't say anything to him, he will surely bring them, but it may not be in a perfectly straight line (through a set of gates), but something more organic. When I have my dog drive the sheep away from the feed bunks in the morning, I don't particularly care what line he takes or how straight it is, as long as he's doing the job (in fact, I shouldn't have to look at him or the sheep at all, but should be able to dump water, etc. out of the bunks before adding feed, and so on), so I don't need to say anything to him. He knows the job and just does it. At a trial, points are taken off for the entire time you are *not* on a perfectly straight line, so obviously handlers who want to win are going to do a lot of commanding to insure the straightest, most precise lines possible. That's not a function of breed of dog but rather of the type of work (trial vs. home).

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that most of the general public is rather ignorant about the variety common within the breed--and I imagine that holds true even in the land where these dogs originated (though maybe less so than here, where folks are so removed from our agricultural roots).

J.

 

I'm sure it's just as common here. In country parts people know, in more "civilised" parts most wouldn't.

I very seldom meet ordinary pet dog owners. It isn't as if I live in the middle of nowhere, but I do live in sheep country and my life is pretty much centred on agility where most people know BCs in all their forms.

Even pet BCs I meet have usually come from a farm or farm via rescue.

Even when I take my dogs out for a run, I go to such deserted parts that the only people I meet are "real" dog people - usually with BCs or gun dogs of one sort or another (working type of course). And I'm off to the salt marshes with mine now - doubt if I'll see more than a couple of people in the distance.

 

Pam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get this constantly. I know the heritage of my dogs so i know they are purebred. Funnily enough i often get asked if they are kelpie or kelpie crosses :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure kelpies don't have long coats. The main reason for this i believe (and my dogs are long coated) is markings. I never realised that people assume if she doesn't have a blaze then she musn't be a border collie. Something so trivial makes my dog a kelpie? Saying this most of the time with Echo (pure white, or almost) 90% of people say wow i have never seen a white border collie. Did i miss something? As far as i see my black and white looks more like a border than my white? What are people thinking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
Don't feel bad. I don't think my vet even believes mine are BCs. She's got a chart of breeds and smooth coats are not listed. I get funny looks when I say they are supposed to be purebred.

 

Now they are REAL short coated aren't they!

 

My Sam looks like a Medium coated dog compared with yours!

 

Your vet sounds very funny, 'if it doesn't say it on my chart then it can't be correct'.

 

'Computer Says No' :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now they are REAL short coated aren't they!

 

My Sam looks like a Medium coated dog compared with yours!

 

Yep, pretty slick. I actually thought I was buying a semi-rough coat on the drive to pick Madi up (got Marli, on right, a month later). I didn't know they got that slick until I read up on them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one ever believed me when I would tell them our dog Krispie was a border collie. When we got her I was working for a vet and no one there had ever heard of a smooth coat border. Well she was I saw her mom and her 2 brothers from the same litter. Also had the papers to prove it but to me there was never any doubt. Everything that dog did screamed border collie.

 

post-10840-1264143498_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get this constantly. I know the heritage of my dogs so i know they are purebred. Funnily enough i often get asked if they are kelpie or kelpie crosses :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure kelpies don't have long coats.

 

Yes some do a have longer coats. My friend has a longer coated Red Cloud Kelpie that is working bred. Not as common but they do exist, I have seen quite a few on farms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted some photos of my dog on "The People's Border Collie Gallery" Not sure if shes pure BC or not but she has short hair with a little bit of a ruff around her neck and a slight feathering on her front legs. Took those pics over a month ago and shes growing. Whatever she is ..she does get lots of compliments. She's also a bit of a houdini in wiggling out of her harness..we are on our third one now which seems securer & we also use a second leash on her collar.

 

She pounces on her ball like a cat & bats it around like a soccer ball. She gives hugs. She comes now if I whistle, seems to prefer that over her name being called out. Sits on command. Goes into her crate on command [she gets a tiny cat treat reward] She will chase cows [as a friend found out] and would chase fast moving cars if we let her! She mouses in the tall grass and trees squirrels. Shes over 18" at the shoulder now. Overall shes quiet & well behaved.

 

Please look at my other post & see if shes a smooth coated BC.. thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't feel bad. I don't think my vet even believes mine are BCs. She's got a chart of breeds and smooth coats are not listed. I get funny looks when I say they are supposed to be purebred.

 

Gorgeous dogs, but I can see why some people might doubt they are purebred. Just curious, did you meet the parents?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gorgeous dogs, but I can see why some people might doubt they are purebred. Just curious, did you meet the parents?

 

Me too, but photos can be deceptive.

In that one, one of them looks as if it could have some staffie in it and the other some whippet.

They probably look different in real life though.

 

Pam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one ever believed me when I would tell them our dog Krispie was a border collie. When we got her I was working for a vet and no one there had ever heard of a smooth coat border. Well she was I saw her mom and her 2 brothers from the same litter. Also had the papers to prove it but to me there was never any doubt. Everything that dog did screamed border collie.

 

post-10840-1264143498_thumb.jpg

 

She has 1 Blue Merle eye?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get asked all the time what breed Kit is. She's a mix, and her smooth coat with lots of white makes people think she's not BC. Plenty of BC people have asked me whether she's pure, and plenty of other folks have looked at me screwy when I say BC. *Shrug*

As to the cold question, Kit shivers when she gets wet in the winter time, so I don't let her swim this time of year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huh, if Kit is the dog in your avatar then my first thought would have been bird dog! :rolleyes:

 

J.

 

Yep, that's her. My best guess is BC x pointer, so yeah, you're right on the money with the bird dog guess. She came from a shelter, so really there's no telling. Her looks scream bird dog, but if you knew her personality, you'd cry BC. She herds livestock, other dogs, crows, geese, children, and even me on occasion. She excels at frisbee and agility. Her drive is like nothing I've ever seen in a non-herding dog. And then there are her eyes. I've attached a couple more pics. Don't let the cow spots fool you! (She does have the nose and appetite of a bird dog, though!)

 

I know better than to judge a herding dog by its looks, but I fail to see how people are always so confused by BC mixes. Maybe I'm part sheep or something, but to me, it's all in the eyes. With very few exceptions, BC's (and mixes) older than a few months all have such distinctive eyes!

post-10433-1264838860_thumb.jpg

post-10433-1264838908_thumb.jpg

post-10433-1264839014_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...