Kidney Support Diet

[Root Beer]

Hey all,

 

I was wondering if any of you could point me to a good resource for a kidney support diet for a dog who is raw fed.

 

Thanks!

[Lenajo]

I don't have it with me, but Mary Staus's kidney pages are a wealth of information.

 

You need to know the dogs labwork results. Creatinine levels determine what dietary choices are best.

[Root Beer]

Thanks. I can get those levels from the vet.

[airbear]

Per Lenajo's post, here is Mary Straus's web page specific to homemade diets for dogs with kidney disease: Dog Aware Please make sure to run these ideas by your vet! Towards the end, Bear was on ACE inhibitors, beta blockers, and appetite stimulants, and I always checked to see how his diet could be impacted by these meds.

 

Good luck!

[Root Beer]

Per Lenajo's post, here is Mary Straus's web page specific to homemade diets for dogs with kidney disease: Dog Aware Please make sure to run these ideas by your vet! Towards the end, Bear was on ACE inhibitors, beta blockers, and appetite stimulants, and I always checked to see how his diet could be impacted by these meds.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks. I will be working with my vet. She knows I raw feed and she is open to working on a diet with me. She even suggested we consult with a nutritionist.

 

But she wants me to do some legwork on my own first and, I guess, get an idea of how I want to handle things.

 

This is extremely overwhelming, but that site gives me a good place to start. Thanks.

[2 Devils]

I thought I heard there was a yahoogroup for dogs with kidney problems. You may want to check that too.

[diane allen]

If your vet is behind you on this - you are soooo far ahead of most of the dog world! Keep that one around!

 

There is a vet nutritionist who will devise a diet for dogs with any particular problems & meds (or just healthy ones too!) - you fill out a questionnaire about what you're willing to do (and being raw-fed already will give you a huge advantage), and she devises appropriate proportions of various ingredients and supplements. I did one for my older dog with liver issues - it was NOT what many others had recommended, including the yahoo group folks; but makes a lot more sense to me, and while it's a bit of a PITA to mix up, I've gotten pretty good at it with some practice. I wasn't THAT far off in my homemade diet, which reflected a LOT of research; but this one is certainly more complete. I also had her do one for my younger healthy dog, based on what I'd have on hand for the older one. It's pretty easy, comparatively!

 

Check out: www.susanwynn.com

She's actually in Georgia, but we did it all long-distance, via e-mail and a couple of phone calls for my innumerable questions.

I strongly recommend this!

 

diane

[BCjetta]

I have a dog with renal failure as well. She actually lives with my parents because my BC attacks her. We put her on the low protein diet from the vet as my parents don't want anything complicated. Her creat and urea levels were elevated but her phos was still ok. I think the big thing with a dog in renal failure is reducing the protein. The food she's being fed now is 16% protein. For a larger dog, you don't want quite as low protein as that....maybe around 20% or so. If the phos is elevated, there are products you can buy to help bind the phosphorous which will extend the life of the kidneys as well.

 

We diagnosed my dog fairly early on with the renal failure-all I'd noticed was drinking a bit more and peeing more. I think it was last march. She's still doing fine overall. She's on the low protein food, however she is getting table food as well mixed in (I just tell my parents go low on the meat part since that is where most of the protein is).

[Cynthia P]

In a commercial kibble diets they tend to reduce the overall protein; Using a raw diet you can exceed the recommendations by vets because we are feeding more available protein, more suitable protein.

 

Maggie, one of our giant schnauzers, was diagnosed with renal failure at 7 months old; she was fed the kibble kidney diet by her owners until we adopted her at 18 months old. We switched her to raw cold turkey after consulting with our vet. She died just after her 7th birthday and it was only in the last 3 months that her kidney values went up significantly.

 

When we switched from the kibble to raw her numbers went down significantly. With raw you need to watch the phosphorus balance when feeding bones. one of the yahoo groups is called K9Kidney I think and it has TONNES of information; There is also another one just for feeding raw;

 

Good luck

 

cynthia

[juliepoudrier]

BCJetta,

The *quality* of the protein being fed is just as important, if not more so, than the quantity. This is a newer school of thought when it comes to feeding and kidney failure, but it's one I believe. My own older cat who is in renal failure gets EVO. Many animals, especially cats, put on a low protein diet actually lose muscle mass becuase they are not getting enough *good* protein. I know it's a bit different for dogs as they aren't obligate carnivores like cats, but I wouldn't dream of putting a cat in renal failure on a corn-based low-protein diet--that's sort of like robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I probably wouldn't do the same for a dog....

 

J.

[Root Beer]

BCJetta,

The *quality* of the protein being fed is just as important, if not more so, than the quantity. This is a newer school of thought when it comes to feeding and kidney failure, but it's one I believe. My own older cat who is in renal failure gets EVO. Many animals, especially cats, put on a low protein diet actually lose muscle mass becuase they are not getting enough *good* protein. I know it's a bit different for dogs as they aren't obligate carnivores like cats, but I wouldn't dream of putting a cat in renal failure on a corn-based low-protein diet--that's sort of like robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I probably wouldn't do the same for a dog....

 

J.

 

That seems to be the consensus. When I first heard "reduce protein", it threw me because he's raw fed. How can you reduce protein and still feed raw? It seems there are kidney-appropriate diets, though, that are raw based.

 

Also, I don't want him losing a bunch of muscle mass. He's very active and he needs enough protein. Speedy also has his arthritis on top of this kidney thing, so a kibble with highly processed grains is really not a good idea for him because of that.

 

I'm still just starting my research, of course, but at this time I'm not open to switching him from raw to a prescription kidney kibble. I have no problem adding different amounts and types of veggies and homecooked grains to his diet if that's really best. And I can deal with reducing the amount of bone he gets, which really has never been all that much to start with. And I'm happy to supplement. I've already put fish oil and Vitamin E back into his diet. We had stopped that for a while, but I've started it back up again.

 

I'm waiting on admission to the yahoo group. I'm really hoping that I'll get good info there. The Mary Staus site has provided an excellent starting place and tbe Susan Wynn site is very interesting. I'll probably look into that further. I'll be getting a copy of his blood test next week, so that should help with more specific research.

 

If anyone else has info/suggestions, please keep them coming!

 

If your vet is behind you on this - you are soooo far ahead of most of the dog world! Keep that one around!

 

Yeah, I like her a lot. She has worked with me on a couple of things that other vets in the practice aren't willing to do. She's fine with minimal vaccination and doesn't push a bunch of vaccines that I am not interested in giving, and she was the one who was willing to prescribe meds for Dean's noise phobia. She also let me try a kind of different approach when Dean was having some digestive issues and it has worked out very well. She lets me do Speedy's adequan shots at home. And now she's supportive of me finding a way to do this kidney thing raw.

 

If she ever leaves the practice, I won't be a happy camper!

[shatchp]

If anyone else has info/suggestions, please keep them coming!

 

Coming in to this late. We started our bc mix on a raw diet after realizing she had chronic kidney failure, and I swear it kept her healthy longer. Kidneys are filters, so the less we give bad kidneys to filter the better...so, in my mind natural, raw food was better than anything processed. We did have to watch the creatinine and bun levels...creatinine especially is related to calcium and phosphorus intake in food.

 

You asked about "good" protein. Frankly, it's a balancing act...you want meats lower in protein and phosphorus....but you want enough protein. Calcium in meat is good to a degree, as its a natural phosphorus binder. The problem is, meats with calcium also have lots of phosphorus. So, we stayed away from red meats like beef and buffalo...and fed chicken and turkey, green tripe, and eggs. Egg shells ground up are a natural phosphorus binder. We added cooked sweet potatoes, minced raw parsley or kale and a some chinese herbs for kidney function. I think the right raw meat maximized the protein intake while minimizing the damage to the kidneys.

 

The game is staying ahead of the disease, keeping your dog healthy and feeling good. Frequent IV flushes can help "reset" things, and you can do subcutaneous (under the skin) fluids at home...your vet can teach you. We did subcutaneous fluids at home every day the last 4 months...I'm not sure it helped, but I did everything I could.

 

Our vet was holistic and helpful...and the community at K9KidneyDiet was invaluable. Check it out here. This group has, in their files page, a list of the various meats, fruits and vegetables you might feed...organized by their phosphorus and calcium levels, cooked and uncooked by weight. There are a number of raw feeders in that group. I just read back and realized you've already applied....

 

Good luck.

[jenkshipley]

I was wondering if any of you could point me to a good resource for a kidney support diet for a dog who is raw fed.

 

 

There is a really good Yahoo Group for people with dogs who have renal issues.

 

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9KidneyDiet/

 

Also the Dogaware site has some good info.

 

http://dogaware.com/

 

Traditionally, veterinarians have put dogs on low protein diets and reduced sodium. This has been shown recently not to be the best approach. Low phosporous, high quality protein foods and a moderate protein level in the diet has been shown to work. There are also a few supplements that have actually been studied and have been shown to aid in kidney function. Epaktin and Azodyl. A phosphorous blocker may also be beneficial for your dog.

 

Best,

 

Jen

Flute AAD, AX, OAJ, OAC, OGC, NAJ - semi-retired

ADCH Enna TM - Silver, SACH, GCH, SCH, JCH, RCH, MX, MXJ - rescued champion

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - aka: Fever - retired due to epilepsy

Ignited's Molten Rush, aka: Lava - BC puppy in training

Kasi EAC,EGC,EJC, OA,OAJ - (1992-2007)

[Root Beer]

I ended up going to the k9kidneydiet yahoo group and I posted Speedy's bloodwork info.

 

Since I posted it there, it's technically "public", so I'll just share it here.

 

His creatinine level is 1.6 and his BUN is 41.

 

Technically his creatinine level IS in the normal range, although at the very highest end of normal. According to the research I've done, it is not uncommon for raw fed dogs to have a high BUN. Also, according to what I've been reading, if creatinine is normal and only BUN is high, there might not be kidney problems at all - it could be dehydration. But, the creatinine being at the high end of normal is cause for concern.

 

So far my main concern has been increasing his hydration levels each day. His vet did recommend this. She said to increase his water intake by 25%. I have absolutely no way of knowing how much he drinks every day, so I'm simply adding water to his meals and, around mid-day, giving him his own small bowl of water with something nice in it.

 

If he is having kidney issues, this is very early, so I'm not making extreme diet changes right now. I'm learning how to balance phosphorus and making considerations about bone. I've also re-added some supplements that are recommended for dogs with kidney issues. These are things he should be been getting, anyway, to help with his arthritis. I kind of slacked off on them when he went on meds. We brought back fish oil, vitamin E, and vitamin C. I'll be considering other supplements, too.

 

I want to see if and how these small changes affect his levels on his next blood test. If they go down, I know I'm on the right track. If they stay the same, I'll look at other adjustments. Hopefully they don't go up, but if they do, I know that more extreme steps are needed.

 

I appreciate everyone's input. This one threw me for a loop. Speedy has never been such a picture of glowing health in his life!

[BCjetta]

Hmmmm....I'm not real familiar with the units you posted (I'm used to SI units).

 

However...for the past 3 years or so, every time I check Hannah's creat it is 159 or 160 (high end of normal is 159umol/L in SI units). Her BUN is usually high normal or slightly above normal (anywhere between 9-13 and high end of normal I believe is 10mmol/L). The vet I work for is not concerned at all about her because her first morning urine concentration is as high as 1.050. She said its probably a mix of what she eats, and the fact that she's a very active dog. The fact that her urine is quite concentrated means her kidneys are working fine.

Either way, I'm paranoid so I've been adding water to her food for the past couple years to make her drink more. Her values are still the same as they were a few years ago. I'll start getting concerned if I notice her drinking more, or if the concentration of her urine becomes more dilute. The first time I did bloodwork and noticed these things was October of 2006. Her values were still about the same last time I checked which was almost a year ago now.

 

How was Speedy's urine specific gravity?

 

 

This was back in Oct of 06....but I remember the vet saying something about the high creat and BUN and exercise/stress on the body possibly being a factor....i keep meaning to check her blood after resting her for a week or only leash walking, and then check it after her being really active like a long walk/fetch or an agility trial and see if it changes based on how much she's exerted herself.

 

eta - I did the conversions for Speedy's creat and its 141 and his BUN is 14.6 in the units I'm used to. Both those values are very very similar to what Hannah's have been.

[Root Beer]

However...for the past 3 years or so, every time I check Hannah's creat it is 159 or 160 (high end of normal is 159umol/L in SI units). Her BUN is usually high normal or slightly above normal (anywhere between 9-13 and high end of normal I believe is 10mmol/L). The vet I work for is not concerned at all about her because her first morning urine concentration is as high as 1.050. She said its probably a mix of what she eats, and the fact that she's a very active dog. The fact that her urine is quite concentrated means her kidneys are working fine.

Either way, I'm paranoid so I've been adding water to her food for the past couple years to make her drink more. Her values are still the same as they were a few years ago. I'll start getting concerned if I notice her drinking more, or if the concentration of her urine becomes more dilute. The first time I did bloodwork and noticed these things was October of 2006. Her values were still about the same last time I checked which was almost a year ago now.

 

How was Speedy's urine specific gravity?

 

It was perfect. 1.041 (Normal range - 1.015 - 1.050)

 

All of his values except for creat and BUN were solidly normal.

 

That's what Speedy's vet said, too - she wasn't as concerned because his urine results were good. Although in the next minute she recommended putting him on k/d!! I'm planning to stick with raw, though - at least for the forseeable future.

 

Of course I'll keep an eye on things, but my inclination is that his case will possibly end up like your Hannah's. He shows absolutely no signs of kidney disease. Of course, it could be too early to be symptomatic, but it sounds like his values are not uncommon, particularly in an an athletic raw fed dog.

 

This was back in Oct of 06....but I remember the vet saying something about the high creat and BUN and exercise/stress on the body possibly being a factor....i keep meaning to check her blood after resting her for a week or only leash walking, and then check it after her being really active like a long walk/fetch or an agility trial and see if it changes based on how much she's exerted herself.

 

That's interesting. Speedy and I had been training like crazy. That wasn't highly stressful on him, but his activity level for several weeks before the test was notably high. That could have contributed to the results.

 

eta - I did the conversions for Speedy's creat and its 141 and his BUN is 14.6 in the units I'm used to. Both those values are very very similar to what Hannah's have been.

 

Thanks!! That's good to know!

[BCjetta]

How old is Speedy?

 

I'm willing to bet he's like Hannah, values are just normally high end....I wonder if its a border collie thing (well, a fit, in shape, active border collie thing).

[Root Beer]

He's 8.

 

One of thing that makes it a little challenging to determine if there is a problem is that there was no baseline bloodwork. I didn't get a test taken when he turned 7 and he had never had a full blood panel at any point in his life.

 

So, we will have to get a couple more sets of results to see if this is a normal, steady thing with him.

 

Another friend of mine has said the same thing as you, though. Her dog's levels were always creat at the high end of normal and BUN high. They never changed and it never caused a problem.

 

So, I'm hopeful!