For those who don't know better

[sea4th]

I also have never, nor do I know how to train a dog through open. I do believe that there is a time and place for everything, including a shock collar. When using a shock collar for any sort of training becomes the rule, rather than the exception, that's when it becomes a problem and not only might have a detrimental effect on the dog, but reflects on the handler's training skills or lack thereof as well.

 

It's only another tool for a knowledgable trainer to have at his/her disposal to use only when certain situations arise. Operative word here is "knowledgable". Anyone who calls themselves a trainer and a shock collar is part of their repertoire, had better take a good, long hard look at themselves and their training techniques, even if using a shock collar for them might be a faster means to achieve an end --- doesn't make them a better trainer.

 

Years ago there was someone in this area who worked labs on shock collars in the field. This person went on to get a border collie which she put on a shock collar and gave herding demos. @@ To me, it seems the dog worked to avoid the zap.

[Burnandreturn]

It seems to me the only people/handlers/trainers that could use a shock collar and not ruin the dog and benefit the dog don't need one to achieve their goals.

[Tea]

What if?

 

You put the shock collar on yourself.

 

Gave the controls to a big guy who spoke no english. (This person had been told earlier that he was to teach you to do a complex math problem or a ballet move by shocking you when you did not do it correctly.) By the way- The Big Guy cannot do the math problems or Ballet himself. He understands them in theory.

 

And you cannot understand his commands because he does not speak your language. And he is not allowed hand gestures or a pen to help you with your exercises.

 

I guess if you believe that the shock collar is a valid tool you would do this to yourself.

[jasper7777]

Maybe I shouldn't be posting in the stock dog forum, but to all the people who say the electic collars are torture, they are only torture if you use them wrong.

Shock collars when used the right way are humane, if its not humane you are using the shock collar incorrectly. That trainer you described sounds like he she was doing a number of things wrong. One, using a shock collar in a big group of dogs sounds idiotic, there is a good chance the dog is going to associate the weird tingle with the other dogs, the park itself, etc... and develop a fear of the setting. Good chance one of the dog owners is going the push the button on wrong setting, and dog will yelp and distract the other dogs- leading to more confused dogs. Sounds like trainer is setting up a recipe for disaster.

 

That said,

I think the electric collar was one of the best things I ever did with my dog Sam. But I researched the methods for hundreds of hours, read books, watched videos etc... before I ever even bought the collar. All the research I did concluded that if you use it the wrong way you can really mess up you dog, so if you are going to use it you have to do it right. I wouldn't hire a special trainer, until you know exactly the collar works and how to train yourself. There are steps to follow, you can't miss any of the steps. I used it for one thing only, which was to get Sam to Come no matter what. So, even if Sam is 50 ft away from me if I call him, he comes now. I started by using a long line and getting him to come and then treats. Once that was full proof I replaced the long line with the electric collar— but it was a slow gentle process, step by step over 3 weeks. Before using the collar, If Sam was starting to chase a bird in the distance, and I yelled Oy! Come! Sam would look at me, flick his head in the air, and keep chasing the bird, chase bird etc.., and come back straight after chased the bird and sit and want a treat for coming and sitting. Now, when I say Oy! Come! he comes right straight back no matter what.

So, I only used it really to get a fool-proof perfect "come" command in place. I will never use the collar for anything else, (to correct barking, or any other training problem). Being able to get Sam to come no matter what Has meant, he gets to walk off leash and run up and down the river bank when I walk him and chase tennis balls next to the beach or river and play freely with other dogs. Being off leash has made Sam's whole life better, even made him more well adjusted. Really, its changed Sam's life!

 

The rules for an electric collar should be: Your dog should never cringe, yelp, or look fearful when you use it, if he does you should stop, because you are doing it wrong. And you shouldn't even attempt it unless you have, read all the books, watched all the tapes, first. And you need to do that before you get a trainer or even buy a collar. Either study up, or don't use it.

[juliepoudrier]

I believe that Amelia was referring to the use of shock collars for stockdog training, hence posting this ancient thread in the stockdog training forum. If you want to discuss the merits of shock collars for obedience training, best to do so in the general or obedience, etc. forums. You're not likely to find any takers for your philosophy in this particular training forum.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr/Mrs. Jasper wrote:

 

"Being off leash has made Sam's whole life better, even made him more well adjusted. Really, its changed Sam's life!"

 

I have seen non-Border Collies trained for obedience and retrieving with shock collars. Although I have reservations about the overwhelming control they give human handlers, in expert hands they are not necessarily abusive. I have never seen one sheepdog successfuly trained with a shock collar and have seen many ruined by them. Shock and dummy collars are banned at USBCHA sanctioned trials.

 

I do think there are rare circumstances when a shock collar is appropriate for Border Collies. I also think shock collars positively invite misuse and should be available only to licensed professionals. Their correct use as an aversive depends upon near-perfect timing. A trainer who has, for whatever reason, trained his/her Border Collie NOT to come won't have the timing and dog reading ability the shock collar demands.

 

Among those who routinely train obedience with shock collars, "off leash" also means "off collar".

 

Donald McCaig

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

EGAAAAADS! lol, it's been awhile since I've been to this forum, but I am amazed and have forgotten what all the abuses I get to see in the U.S. And I'm an American too, born in North Dakota. First I read "Border Collies" on the Craiglist, and am having big-time ulcers and then I go and read about shock collars on Border Collies. And yeah,uhh, sorry certain folks, but I'd be tempted to chase a human who uses a shock collar and put it on his/her neck and make them wear it for the rest of their lives. It reminds me how I have fits and ulcers over that dratted American Jon Katz with his stupid border collie books. Katz was enough to get me frothin' at the mouth like a rabid dog, and now the Craigslist advertising border collies from lamos who have no business owning B.Cs or breeding B.Cs and now this, the shock collar???? If I were to report this in the UK, they would be absolutely horrified by this. I will go ahead and write my concerns about this issue in the UK to reconfirm. But I am pretty DARN SURE they would rate shock collars akin to animal abuse for B.Cs. Also the final issue is breeding. Border Collies with difficult behaviors should never ever be bred! Why I see this over and over again is beyond me. Workable genes are crucial for breeding border collies whether for agility or sheepherding. Any dog that does not possess the ideal traits should never be bred. It's the way to avoid problem dogs as well. Not to mention having folks willing to spend the time and energy to properly train. If you have too many B.Cs and do not have time to do that careful training and retraining without the shock collar than something is definitely amiss. Dogs that do not have good genes should be immediately neutered and not put on the field in the first place if they cannot be trained in any other way besides the shock collar. They were not meant to do sheepherding.