Way back and come out

[Pippin's person]

I don't entirely understand when to use commands like 'way back' and 'come out' as compared to regular flanking commands. As a result, I don't use them because I don't have a clear sense of what exactly they mean.

 

I understand that they mean "get back away from the sheep" in a general sense (and that the dog is supposed to first move straight back away from you and the sheep), but they aren't a correction for slicing in, right?

 

So, when should they be used and what exactly do they mean?

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I don't entirely understand when to use commands like 'way back' and 'come out' as compared to regular flanking commands. As a result, I don't use them because I don't have a clear sense of what exactly they mean.

 

I understand that they mean "get back away from the sheep" in a general sense (and that the dog is supposed to first move straight back away from you and the sheep), but they aren't a correction for slicing in, right?

 

So, when should they be used and what exactly do they mean?

I know that I'll probably get some flack on this but here goes anyway. In my opinion "way back" and "come out" are a correction for an improper flank (like you said, slicing in). If you train the flank properly you shouldn't need to use those commands. Now this is in the world of perfection and we don't operate there all the time so some folks have these commands. If I give a dog a flank and he doesn't do it properly he gets a correction; arrgh!, growl, whatever you use and then another command a little firmer to flank. I have seen quite a few folks in the UK starting their dogs with "get back" and I don't really agree with it for our sheep and also for some of theirs too, but they seem to feel the need to push their dogs way out and get them off the sheep as they are constantly working on light hill sheep. To each his own, I guess. Bob

[Wendy V]

As Bob said, I use the command for up close work, where the dog is most liable to tighten its flanks, mostly shedding and penning. Correcting a fault, yes, but it works well in a tense situation.

[Amelia]

Hello all. I don't use come out and way back, I use "keep" and "out." For me, they are not a correction, but they mean to widen the flank. There are times when a dog is correct on his flanks around the course, but at some point I may need him wider, like at the pen or in the shed ring, and that's when I use them. Another example would be when the dog's flanks are correct for some sheep, but not the ones we're working. For the most part, being able to widen a flank when you need to is just another tool in the tool box and you never know when it may come in handy. Just like I vary the strength of my flank whistles to vary the depth of my dog's flank, I do the same with my voice when I use "keep" and "out."

 

I don't use these commands to make a dog turn tail and walk straight away from his sheep, just widen. I use "get back" to cause a dog to quit his sheep and I only use that sparingly and in extreme situatons. Also, I didn't find "hill sheep" to be light. I found the Sc Blackface to be quite cagey. I didn't want my dog to be farther off them, I wanted him to be more careful, and he was. They brought out a caution and style that I had never seen in him before and it stayed with him after we got home.

 

I know of a top hand who has a whistle to accomplish almost the same thing as my "get back," and I've seen him use it on the trial field without penalty. They don't actually turn tail and walk away, but they definitely shut down until the next whistle. I shudder to think what he did to train it and wonder why he isn't always penalised for using it, because his dog does quit the sheep afterall. He uses it when they are too pushy and to widen their flanks.

 

Cheers all,

[bcnewe2]

I'm with Amelia, I use "get" and "keep" to widen out a flank on the run. It's not a correction. I will also use it with tone of voice to encourage a dog who might be confused on where his sheep might be. For us, maybe a keep if he's almost there but can't see his sheep so widen a bit and he'll see them. I use his name to call him in if he's to wide.

 

I've also use a flanking whistle to give information on how wide or long to flank. Longer whistle means go deep, quicker means don't go as deep. But Keep and Get are great for us. I guess they're really redirects but if we need to, then so be it. Better than stopping and restarting.

 

JK put those commands on Mick in one session. He's never forgotten them since that day, alhtough it took me a while to be able to understand when and how to use them.

 

I use GET BACK or Back if I'm up close to the dog and he's thinking of coming in doing something I don't want. Like a pressure grip. For mick he'll back straight up from the sheep. Still keeping in contact. For Dew, she's more sensitive and she will pretty much quite the sheep like Ameiia's friend then wait for me to ask her back on. I hope her and I can work through the idea of I never want her to quit the sheep unless we're both finished. I didn't ever do much to get her to be that sensitive with that particular command but I'm figuring I was probably mad or confused when I used it.

[Liz P]

I've used an "out" command to relieve some pressure in situations like penning if I think the dog is too close, if the dog is trying to gather one group and I want both/all groups in a field, if the dog is about to miss sheep hiding in some brush, etc. I sometimes use it on young dogs as a correction for trying to slice flanks. At home I will tell the dogs "out" if I want them out of the kitchen while I am cooking

[juliepoudrier]

I use "out" and "off" this way, and as others have said, it's for close work when I see that even with a square flank (and the main dog I use this with basically has no slice, so using the commands as a correction just isn't in the playbook) the sheep are overreacting (and this may simply be because of the added pressure my presence adds in tight situations) and I need the dog to relieve even more pressure. I also find these flanks helpful when I set sheep at trials--once I have the sheep where I want them, I can ask my dog to flank back off them a bit to give a little more space.

 

J.

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

I use "out" and "off" this way, and as others have said, it's for close work when I see that even with a square flank (and the main dog I use this with basically has no slice, so using the commands as a correction just isn't in the playbook) the sheep are overreacting (and this may simply be because of the added pressure my presence adds in tight situations) and I need the dog to relieve even more pressure. I also find these flanks helpful when I set sheep at trials--once I have the sheep where I want them, I can ask my dog to flank back off them a bit to give a little more space.

 

J.

I don't ever use a flank as a correction. I use a correction for an improper flank and then the flank command again after the correction. As I said in my post we do not operate in a perfect world and we, the handlers, make the mistake of letting our dogs get too close to the sheep and then we need a `get back`or a get out or an out to correct OUR mistake. Those commands are necessary for us to correct our mistakes, not the dog`s. I think I know the fellow of whom Amelia speaks and, contrary to popular belief, he has been docked a lot of points at times for buzzing his dog back off the sheep. The dog sometimes will get back so fast that he is totally out of contact. I know for myself making sure my dog is not too close to his sheep at the pen or in the shedding ring is where I always want to be but sometimes I make the mistake of letting him get a little too close and I have to back him off a bit or square his flank out a little more than usually required. This is my mistake and I usually suffer for it in a trial as it gets things a little more active than I would like especially in situations where you would like things to stay calm like penning and shedding. I do use a `GET OUT OF THAT when the situation arises and then I go smack myself upside the head for making the mistake and causing uneccesary action by the dog. Ìt works for me and whatever works for you is fine by me. Bob

[juliepoudrier]

Bob,

This is the comment to which I was responding:

 

In my opinion "way back" and "come out" are a correction for an improper flank (like you said, slicing in). If you train the flank properly you shouldn't need to use those commands. Now this is in the world of perfection and we don't operate there all the time so some folks have these commands. If I give a dog a flank and he doesn't do it properly he gets a correction; arrgh!, growl, whatever you use and then another command a little firmer to flank.

 

My point was that I don't use them as a correction for an improper flank, and I used the example of my routinely square-flanking (to a fault, IMO) dog to illustrate that point. I see that I wasn't clear in my wording above--when I said I don't use the words as a correction, I meant correction in the sense of correcting a sliced flank, not as a general correction (i.e., don't do that). Maybe that's clearer. I know you've posted your comments about sliced flanks in other places, and I agree that it's better to teach a dog to flank properly to begin with. I also think, however, that use of terms like "way back" and "come out" doesn't *automatically imply* that the dog is slicing its flanks to begin with, which is what you seem to be saying, and that's the point I was trying to make, however badly.

 

J.

[Wendy V]

Correcting a fault, yes, but it works well in a tense situation.

 

I'm quoting myself because I, too, could make myself clearer. When I said "corrrecting a fault", I meant a fault in training, as my dogs routinly tighten up when working at hand.

[Pippin's person]

Many thanks--this is making more sense to me--Julie and Amelia, your explanation(s) of using it when you want the dog to relieve more pressure makes a great deal of sense.

 

Does the "off" or "out" mean: "widen/relieve pressure and flank" or just "widen/relieve pressure" (followed by a flanking command: e.g. Off. Come bye)?

 

Similarly, in Kristen's scenario, could one reasonably use "get" for both sides or is "flank, too" implied, thus necessitating two commands?

[Debbie Meier]

I just wanted to mentioned something, I see others use "in" and "out" in one form or another to have their dogs release or add pressure, they are handy little things to use when your in a trial or don't have time to require the dog to be correct.

 

I guess how I look at it, ideally I don't want to have to tell my dog to release pressure or to put more pressure on, if he understands what I want he will apply the proper pressure to get the job done, by using in or out as a command rather then correcting him and holding him to a correct flank I would just be allowing him or saying that's ok I'll help you with the pressure and he will probably stop trying to be correct since I'm not holding him to the higher standard.

 

One handler explained to me that he considered "in" and "out" as "tricks" they were not commands relavent to stock handling, just little tricks that you could use to get you and your dog out of a jamm. Whereas another handler told me that I should put an out on a dog to manage a dogs slice or one that flanks too big rather then to try to train the dog to the higher standard of a proper flank.

 

My stand at this point with "in" and "out" (or variations), I don't want to get in the habit of using them to adjust my dogs flank pressure, I would rather correct my dog and ask for another flank in hopes that he will flank correctly the next time. I have no problem using the in and out for an emergency in the case that I have found that I put my dog in the wrong place and I need him to get "in" or "out" from that location, so I don't have a problem with the dog having the command.

 

Also, when I hear handlers use those commands on their dogs I start watching to see if the dog is flanking correctly in a specific place or just flanking in general. Ideally, I want my dog to flank in a specific place. I guess when I think about it, if I have to tell my dog out, he is slicing and if I have to say in he is off pressure too far, not in that ideal flanking place that I'm looking for, and a lot more work for me, I don't want to have to manage something that is his job, if I have to manage the pressure for him, via adjusting his location then he is incorrect or not understanding what I want. But that's just me, everyone has a little different approach.

 

Deb

[bcnewe2]

Robin

I use Keep for the away side and get for the comeby side. I think I started this because JackK told me to. But I assume it's attached to the outrun that they are doing, so I could see if I gave the wrong one, it could turn them around. But I know I've made a mistake on the comeby side and hollered out Keep, he did exactly as I wanted and bent out farther.

 

I was thinking about it more. It's almost used as a "good boy" thing for us. He's going out, gets nervous if he isn't seeing sheep or what ever, I holler Keep or get and he's assured he's doing right and bends out in happy antisipation of sheep coming. Don't know if that makes since but it's what I was thinking Mick feels about those commands. Not corrections at all. I don't always have to use them, more if we'er new someplace or blind outruns. I'm not worried about taking a hit in points if we had to use them at a trial, I want good, happy, work, the points are second to me. I'm more testing my dog at a trial. Now I assume that I'd feel differently if we were to start placing more often!

 

Now up close, is different. The get back is give the sheep some space, That's more correctional, why are you up so close anyways? He isn't pleased with that command, But it's not really a correction unless like someone else said I'm correcting something I let happen. Not sure I agree with that, I don't want to havce to tell the dog exactly where I want him to be, I can help, but i want him feeling where he needs to be.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sometimes the dog is in a situation where he couldn't possibly see stock I do, due to terrain/lay of the pasture/vegetation. Sometimes due to his experience he doesn't realize that relieving pressure could help while loading or penning (again, most times it's because he doesn't realize the ones he's pressuring are digging in their heels because they have nowhere to go).

 

Sometimes (often again while loading a large mixed group), he'll get "sucked in" too tight to deal with the group as a whole again, while pressuring a stubborn individual. After a confrontation like that, I prefer with a young dog to help him with a reminder to get back out (not a correction, which is loading pressure on pressure on that situation).

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

Some clarifications of how I use the terms, though I don't know if this will fully answer your questions:

 

1. I never use "out" and "off" (the actual terms I use) for a dog's outrun. I expect a dog to run out correctly, and if I need to redirect for whatever reason, I give a simple redirect, and not an out or off command.

 

2. In trialing, the only time I ever seem to use "out" and "off" is at the pen, and maybe (though very rarely, and I can't off the top of my head think of when I have used it that way) in the shedding ring. At the pen, I would use the command not because the dog is slicing its flank, but because as Bob noted, I've made an error and somehow let the dog get in too close. Even though I don't have many occasions to use the commands, I still think it's handy to have them. That said, I put those commands on the open dog I trained at the advice of a trainer, not because I came up with the brilliant idea myself. For me, it's just an available tool should I need it for whatever reason, but not a crutch to correct bad work on a routine basis.

 

3. As I noted earlier, the other occasion when I will use "out" and "off" is when I'm setting sheep, and then it's not so much because it's necessary from a sheep/dog point of view, but because I want to position the dog in a particular spot. As you know, not all sets of sheep are the same, and some will require the dog to stay well back while others will require the dog to push in a bit closer (at least on farm flocks here in the east). So once I get the sheep settled where I want them, if it happens to be a set that required the dog to work closer, I'll flank the dog off a bit using "out" or "off." The only real reason I do that is so that the dog is generally holding the sheep from a consistent spot from set to set, which minimizes complaints from the folks competing. (That is, if the dog is pretty much in the same place every time, then no one can claim that I held some groups tighter than others. Sad, but a fact of setting sheep all the same.)

 

4. If a dog is routinely slicing its flank, it would get a correction word ("Hey!" or "Aaaht!" or something like that). If the youngster has been raised properly and trained to respond to a correction word properly, then just using the corection should be enough to get the dog to stop doing the wrong thing and come up with a plan B, which is hopefully the proper square flank.

 

5. *At home* I also use a "get back," and I would never use it anywhere else, because when I say "Get back!" I want the dog to get back and I don't care how it does it (so it could turn tail, which I'd never want at a trial). I use this in very specific situations: I don't have a sheep handling system, so if I need to catch, trim, worm, check, etc., I get the dog to hold the sheep up against the fence while I do what I need to do. If, while I am busy doing whatever I'm doing, the dog creeps in and starts to put pressure on the sheep who are then crushing me or running over me while I'm working on one sheep, I will use "Get back." In this case, it really is a correction, because the dog is creeping up when it shouldn't and of course it's happening while my attention is elsewhere. This is not a scenario that would happen at a trial, and so as I said this is a command that is specific to work at home.

 

6. Likewise, at home, if I am sorting at a gate or similar and the dog has gotten in too close, but I don't want the dog to completely let the pressure off and I need the dog to flank, I'll use the out and off commands to widen the flank a little to relieve the pressure at the gate.

 

So I guess I don't look at "out" and "off" as tools to correct training issues, but rather as tools that sometimes make my work easier around here. If for some reason, I should need one of those tools at a trial, well it's there for me to use, but it's not something I routinely count on in lieu of correct work to begin with.

 

I hope that makes more sense.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Julie, you clarifications shed an entirely different light, thanks for sharing.

 

Deb

[Pippin's person]

This is all great. Thanks again.

 

I still have a question. I see that the commands aren't being used to correct the dog or for the outrun (but may be for correcting for something you've done), so, when you use "off" at the pen or set out, does it mean, "move back and flank to the left/right" or does it just mean "move back".

 

I'm trying to understand

a. if two commands are necessary (mostly so that if I start to use these kinds of commands, I do so in a consistent and meaningful way)

b. if they are stand alone commands or if you use them in conjunction with some additional flanking command (e.g. like "way back", which I've taken to mean something like "give more ground as you move counter-clockwise" when I've heard it used.)

 

I know I may be being too literal with these questions, so I do really appreciate the input

[Shoofly]

I use back and out and they are directional. Back means "flank away, wider than you think you need to because i want you to". Out means "flank come bye, wider than you think you need to because i want you to". I find them very helpful in penning and shedding. In that situation, they are commands, said in a command tone of voice. I do use them on the outrun sometimes too, actually, though it would be a more corrective "get your butt out wider" tone of voice.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Pretty much what she said (except for the part about the outrun). Because the original commands were "away out" and "come off" they are directional and meant as Robin states above. Because they are two separate commands (one for each flank) I can drop the "away" and "come" because to the dog "out" means flank away out and "off" means "come bye off," and the dog understands the shorthand version.

 

Similarly I use a "here" command associated with a flank to mean come all the way around to me. Again this is something I generally use only at home, say, when I want the dog to flank around to me and between me and the sheep (for example, when gate sorting or pushing sheep through a chute, and I want to push the sheep away from the gate/opening where I am standing). In that case, since I use just one command for either side (here) I have to say either "away here" or "come here." (And in case you're wondering, the command for a shed would be "in here".) Good thing my dog can read my mind and isn't easily confused!

 

J.

[mjk05]

Does anyone teach their dogs a reverse?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've seen a dog with a reverse but she taught it to herself. She was on balance and was told to "get back" and she just back pedaled. The trainer kind of said, "Hm!" and said it might be useful and tried it a couple more times. She did it every time.

 

"Off" for my dogs means relieve pressure however they need to. Gus typically turns tail. Ted sidewinds back in a series of small flippy flanks usually. Ted will also go until I say lie down or flank him, which is handy.

[Amelia]

so, when you use "off" at the pen or set out, does it mean, "move back and flank to the left/right" or does it just mean "move back".

 

I can begin a flank with the words "out" and "keep" so they are directional. If my dogs are already flanking I can also use the right word for the direction he's traveling to widen the flank. So, they are directional and used to widen a flank. At distance, I can use the first note of my flank whistle in the same way. I teach my dogs to widen when I blow just the first note and can vary the distance with the strength of the whistle. I also use a "bend" whistle for when I don't want the dogs to flank squarely, but just bend a little bit one way or the other. The whistle is just an abbreviated version of the first note of the flank and usually blown quite soft. One of my dogs is so good at it that he just leans in the correct direction without ever changing his pace. Very useful, especially on range ewes where sometimes a square flank is the last thing you need.

 

Mjk05 asked if anyone uses a reverse? I see hands make a mistake with this when they give their dog a flank, it starts in the wrong direction for the flank given, so they give a correction and the dog reverses. In this way the dog never really learns to take the flank correctly and you have effectively put a reverse command on your dog. OK, so now it's going in the right direction, but a correction was needed because it's very important that they get it right the first time. I don't put a reverse on my dogs, I teach them to take the correct flank every time.

 

I want my dogs to be able to balance absolutely on their own, but willing to flank freely when I need it. I practice flanking my dogs on the fly quite a bit, both driving and fetching, to keep them free, to make sure their flanks are square, and to make sure I can do so every time cleanly and efficiently. I balance that by practicing silent or near silent gathers where they simply get their sheep on the fetch and have to balance to fetch them on their own.

 

I don't do it very often, but sometimes I even reverse them on the outrun. I blow a steady then a flank whistle for the opposite direction they are traveling. I just like to make sure they're paying attention and willing.

 

Cheers all

[mjk05]

Mjk05 asked if anyone uses a reverse? I see hands make a mistake with this when they give their dog a flank, it starts in the wrong direction for the flank given, so they give a correction and the dog reverses.

I didn't really mean reverse in that context, more along the lines Rebecca mentioned, as a means of relieving pressure without flanking to get off.

 

A lot of triallers in our 3sheep trials teach dogs to move backwards without turning off the sheep. It probably doesn't have much purpose in ISDS-style trialling, but it's really useful at the pen (and our other obstacles, which are basically penning too, although without any handler involvement). If you ever have sheep balled up in the pen mouth, not relaxed enough to look away from the dog into the pen, reversing the dog a few steps can take just enough pressure off them that they'll start to move around and think about moving into the pen. Sometimes it's the best method- lying a dog down can encourage the sheep to take the dog on, and then when you stand them up again it can make the sheep even more jumpy, if you flank the dog to get it off the sheep might take the open side, and walking the dog up might just precipitate a confrontation. The other reason I've seen it used is for dogs that don't like to walk up on challenging sheep- if the handler reverses them a little bit just before they reach the point of getting stuck and then asks them to walk up straight away, they often go a bit further than they would otherwise, and it seems to have more effect on the sheep.

 

Also for work in yards or when catching/holding individual sheep, as juliep described:

 

*At home* I also use a "get back," and I would never use it anywhere else, because when I say "Get back!" I want the dog to get back and I don't care how it does it (so it could turn tail, which I'd never want at a trial). I use this in very specific situations: I don't have a sheep handling system, so if I need to catch, trim, worm, check, etc., I get the dog to hold the sheep up against the fence while I do what I need to do. If, while I am busy doing whatever I'm doing, the dog creeps in and starts to put pressure on the sheep who are then crushing me or running over me while I'm working on one sheep, I will use "Get back."

 

None of my dogs do a great reverse, just a few steps, but some dogs will run straight backwards until they're told to stop. Most people teach it in a race or dry train it.

 

I've seen a dog with a reverse but she taught it to herself. She was on balance and was told to "get back" and she just back pedaled. The trainer kind of said, "Hm!" and said it might be useful and tried it a couple more times. She did it every time.

It's interesting that some dogs do it naturally- one of mine sort of does (just a few steps). He also a dog who really likes to come straight forward on sheep, so I think maybe dogs that don't like to leave or release pressure from sheep at all might be more natural reversing dogs?

[aussie nick]

I don't entirely understand when to use commands like 'way back' and 'come out' as compared to regular flanking commands. As a result, I don't use them because I don't have a clear sense of what exactly they mean.

 

I understand that they mean "get back away from the sheep" in a general sense (and that the dog is supposed to first move straight back away from you and the sheep), but they aren't a correction for slicing in, right?

 

So, when should they be used and what exactly do they mean?

 

For trial work i teach my dogs to walk backwards and give an out command (the word is out and i whistle with a buzz sound) i teach this first away from the sheep in a race so they go straight back wards when they are walking backwards as soon as i say out i start them on sheep and when i say out they have to walk backwards off they sheep(not from me ) and i wont let them do anything untill they do it once they will do it without thinking i add the command in for there flanks i use come for clockwise or 2 short whistles so come out or too short buzzing whistles means move out and clockwise same they learn this pretty quick and you need this at obsticles to keep the pressure off the sheep as you move the dog around, on the trial ground where the dog can see the sheep you should not need it on the cast or( fetch) in a perfect world but nice to have it if you need it lol but for paddock work on a long cast and the dog cannot see the sheep then an out command is often needed. I was lucky enough to attend a training session with one off new zealands top dog workers when he was here in australia and he teaches his dogs direction commands from a pup in a harness where he can walk behind and steer the dog has a walk up command turn left a little or or sharp left and same for right about 3 differnt turn commands for each depending how sharp, they need to do this in NZ as they are sending there dogs up hills where they can see the best way up and the dog cannot so they can steer him left and right as he goes it was amazing to watch he sent his dog around a football field with no sheep and steered him around had him running beside a 4 foot fence gave the left command the dog had to jump the fence to move left then gave a right command and it was back in the ground again