flyer Posted April 4, 2009 Report Share Posted April 4, 2009 Colt is 16 weeks and we have some new behaviors that I need some help with. He has decided this week, that perhaps he does not have to come all of the time. I have been walking him on the trails off leash since he was about 9 weeks old. Up until this week I could call him off dogs while he was playing or running and could stop him in an instant when he thought about following joggers or bikes. He will still come 90% of the time, but when he is ramped up, which he is more so now he does not even cock an ear. When I see a jogger, I put him on a sit, stay and treat him as they pass. Then, come or this way, and we continue on. Never an issue until yesterday. I was patting someone else's dog and a fast runner came up behind and Colt was after him like a shot, nipping his heels. AAggh. I yelled Colt, come, a couple of times and the jogger kept running and so did Colt, so I really yelled COLT COME in a very stern voice and he did. I treated and praised. But jeez, I can't be using innocent runners to train my pup. The alternative I had thought about was putting him on a long line and holding it and letting him know it is not alright to chase as in a stern "leave it". Then if I did not see a jogger and didn't manage him with the sit stay he would know himself he could not chase. Would the correction transfer off leash do you think? I am uncertain which would be better. Am I expecting too much from my 16 week old pup? Suggestions from anyone on a better way to handle this. I love having him off leash and he has always been so wonderful about it. A very happy camper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Am I expecting too much from my 16 week old pup? Suggestions from anyone on a better way to handle this. I love having him off leash and he has always been so wonderful about it. A very happy camper. Yes. You are expecting too much from a 16 week old pup one the one hand. On the other hand, disobeying commands can't be optional at this stage or it will become a learned behavior. Much as you like having him off leash, he's not ready. Put him back on the leash, reinforce your commands (e.g. if you call and he doesn't respond immediately, move off in the other direction and then praise him when he comes to you. On the leash he's forced to move in your direction. Off the leash, he learns there are no adverse consequences to ignoring you and Border Collies learn this REALLY quickly). Same with runners/bikers/roller bladers/kids. On the leash, you can control his response until he's bullet proof (he will get it by 6-8 months and then try to test you again 18-24 months at which point you may need to go back to the leash for a bit). Off the leash, he gets to indulge his desire to chase moving objects and gets rewarded for doing so (it just feels sooooo good). It seems like a lot of work and no fun keeping him on leash but he's going to be your dog for hopefully 14-16 years. Spending the time now to make him learn that he needs to do what you ask, when you ask it of him, makes those 14 - 16 years so much more enjoyable for you and everyone you meet and will save you hundreds or thousands of dollars in behaviorist bills and Cesar Milan videos down the road. Good luck! Pearse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 When I see a jogger, I put him on a sit, stay and treat him as they pass. Then, come or this way, and we continue on. Never an issue until yesterday. I was patting someone else's dog and a fast runner came up behind and Colt was after him like a shot, nipping his heels. AAggh. I yelled Colt, come, a couple of times and the jogger kept running and so did Colt, so I really yelled COLT COME in a very stern voice and he did. I treated and praised. -------------------- Hi. Do you only use treats in recall training? If so, you may want to consider using toys that meet your dogs desire to chase ---balls, tug toys, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I will try a tug toy. Thx. You know today he was perfect. As long as I see the jogger or bike I can prepare him. It's when I don't see them coming and they surprise us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 It seems like a lot of work and no fun keeping him on leash but he's going to be your dog for hopefully 14-16 years. Spending the time now to make him learn that he needs to do what you ask, when you ask it of him, makes those 14 - 16 years so much more enjoyable for you and everyone you meet and will save you hundreds or thousands of dollars in behaviorist bills and Cesar Milan videos down the road. Good luck! Pearse He's actually easy on the leash. He's never been a puller and he doesn't show any of the need to chase when leashed. That's why I was unsure that going back to leash would really help this. Are you saying to leash him so that I can then correct him or are you saying to leash him and continue to use the sit, stay, treat, release after jogger passes? So far when I do this off leash he does not run after them even though they are still quite close. He stays with me until I say that'll do and then he'll move off from me and explore, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 He's actually easy on the leash. He's never been a puller and he doesn't show any of the need to chase when leashed. That's why I was unsure that going back to leash would really help this. Are you saying to leash him so that I can then correct him or are you saying to leash him and continue to use the sit, stay, treat, release after jogger passes? So far when I do this off leash he does not run after them even though they are still quite close. He stays with me until I say that'll do and then he'll move off from me and explore, etc. I think you should always have your dog on leash at this age unless you're in a fenced in area. A longer leash is okay. But this is the age where they are going to start wandering and there are too many variables that you can't control. Probably starting now, come should be practiced in a low distraction fenced in area, using HIGH quality treats, like everytime your dog COMES it should be like the best thing that ever happened to him. And then you practice it with distractions on a long leash elsewhere (with cars passing?). And then you take him through an advanced training class in a safe large area to make sure he is 100% reliable before you ever let him go free in a place where he could do something dangerous like chase a car and get hit or chase a mean dog or something. And even then I don't know... As the owner of an unreliable dog, I can say one of my HUGEST pet peeves is dogs off leash who run after my dog. Because then I am scared for your dog, coming after my dog. This happens a lot in my neighborhood while I am cycling with Pan and once this terrier came after her in front of my bike and I was KNOCKED OFF and split open my palm on the asphalt. I was so mad I couldn't speak when the lady asked me if I was ok, all I could do was nod. I was silently brushing off my hands and knees and checking the blood and then finally as she kept saying, "are you okay, do you want to come inside, can we help, is there anything we can do" all I could manage was "yes - please keep your dog on leash outside." So anyway I guess my point is, there are too many variables you can't control to have your dog off leash in public at 16 weeks old, it's probably best for him to be on leash anyway so he doesn't learn something you don't want him to (like mommy doesn't really have control--and take it from me, you REALLY don't want him to learn that), PLUS it could be dangerous. So yeah, at the very least you should have her on a long leash or a retractable one or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Pansmom, I only have Colt off leash on the trails, a very safe environment, and occasionally on my block at night when it is quiet (cul de sac). No cars. The trails are very woodsy and we've been doing it since he was 9 weeks old. I did it this way with my last dog too and you could call her off a squirrel. I began training a recall as soon as I had him home from the breeder as I believe this is the most important thing for a dog's safety. I practiced in my home first, in my yard, on walks on the leash in the neighborhood and then on the trails I took advantage of the young pup always wanting to be with mom. Off leash he stuck to me like glue for the first couple of weeks and we practiced recall whenever he wandered a little bit away. Kept it fun and playful. There are quite a number of regular off leash dogs on this trail that we meet off and on and he always has a five minute play or so and then on we go. No bikes allowed on this trail, but with spring sun, a few people don't know about the rule and yes, Colt went after one yesterday. The guy just peeled off faster with my pup at his heels. I had to call Colt three times, but he finally spun and bolted back to me. Pumped!! I was so angry at the biker. He came out of nowhere in a no bike park. I would leash him on a shared trail as I do in the neighborhood and downtown. If Colt gets a little far from me on the trail I ask him to wait and he stops and looks at me until I say that'll do. I can also down him during the wait. I swear the dog understands English. I have worked with the sit stay for the past few weeks and now when he sees a jogger he immediately looks at me and sits. He is completely relaxed. I say stay and when the jogger passes either treat or stroke. I'm phasing out the treats here. I've never been unable to call him off another dog even while romping and he is the most polite dog greeter in the world. Colt is quite submissive so he simply stops, sometimes barks a bit, waits for the other dog to approach, turns sideways, sits and turns his head away from the dog, allowing himself to be sniffed. Then he will interact. I always called out to people to ask if their dog was pup friendly when I first started walking him there. We just started our first obedience class Monday night and the instructor/certified behaviorist asked why we were there. I told her to work in a small space with distractions. I thought this might be harder for Colt. Nope. Now don't get me wrong Colt is playful and energetic and loves to rough house with other dogs, but he, well, I don't know, he just enjoys the training, always has. He grooves on having something to do. I think this might be typical BC. Thank you for your concern. I am ever vigilant to him having positive experiences. I've made mistakes, but so far so good. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 A pup this age should always be dragging a longline if and when he is off leash. As Pearse said, it is so much easier to make sure he never establishes bad habits in the first place, than if you have to train him out of them later. The long line will allow you to prevent him from chasing runners and bikes. If you did nothing else, that alone is gold in the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I'm in a very similar situation as you, Sam is 19 weeks old and he's been off the leash since i got him at 6 weeks. His recall is really quite good, he recalls nearly 100% of the time, he will come running back and sit at my feet and wait there until his leash is put on, the odd time he tries to test me will be something like an off-road motorbike, when i call him back when a motorbike is involced, he will try to test me by not coming, but he knows not to chase, and then when i tell him no, leave, wait, in a stern voice, he will sit down and stay where he is, which i don't mind so much but obviously if he was to chase after things then it would be a completely different story. When he doesn't recall and you eventually catch up with him, tell him bad boy in a low stern voice, put him on a really short leash for the remaining duration of the walk - he will soon relate a bad recall to a long restricted walk on a short leash thats for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 When he doesn't recall and you eventually catch up with him, tell him bad boy in a low stern voice, put him on a really short leash for the remaining duration of the walk - he will soon relate a bad recall to a long restricted walk on a short leash thats for sure! Actually, as much as it kills you (and sometimes it sure feels like it's killing me), I feel its best not to associate much in the way of a correction with being caught. Depending on the dog's sensitivity, it can lead to the dog deciding getting caught ends all fun and next time he can be harder to catch up to. Just like you are never, ever, ever supposed to correct a dog who finally comes to you. When I catch up with a dog or walk him down, I will sometimes lead him back to where he failed his recall and then do another recall which is heavily praised. I usually then release the dog back to being free if we are in the safety of the backyard or on my club's grounds. If for some reason he was off leash elsewhere (there aren't many safe places I can do this with him, sadly), then he'd be back on leash but no other consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Actually, as much as it kills you (and sometimes it sure feels like it's killing me), I feel its best not to associate much in the way of a correction with being caught. Depending on the dog's sensitivity, it can lead to the dog deciding getting caught ends all fun and next time he can be harder to catch up to. Just like you are never, ever, ever supposed to correct a dog who finally comes to you. When I catch up with a dog or walk him down, I will sometimes lead him back to where he failed his recall and then do another recall which is heavily praised. I usually then release the dog back to being free if we are in the safety of the backyard or on my club's grounds. If for some reason he was off leash elsewhere (there aren't many safe places I can do this with him, sadly), then he'd be back on leash but no other consequence. I quite agree not to punish no matter how slow the recall, as i use a neutral expression and no voice/praise on a slow recall, however on a quick recall Sam gets loads and loads of praise and games and sometimes treats if i have some on me. However, if the dog isn't coming back at all, and it is up to the handler to catch the dog, as it appears from the post, then athough there are several ways to skin a cat (excuse the expression) imo i would rather the dog know that i'm unhappy with the situation of me coming to the dog and then a short leash and no praise/talking for the remainder of the walk. I didn't take Sam out of the house until he had all of his injections, and then when i started taking him out, i left it a few weeks before traning outside. However, he was of the opinion that training doesn't matter outside the house, and he can run around and do as he pleases outside the house, as its only inside the house that he has to do as he is told. One example was the first time i asked him to down outside in the park, and instead of downing he ran up to me, went down at the front, opened his mough, stuck out his long tongue, and started barking at me, and then he ran away from me at full frottle and started running around in circles as if to say 'you can sod off i'm doing as i please'. When i eventually caught up with him, i put him on the leash, told him off, and went straight back to training again. This time he went to run away, but the leash tightened and he realised he couldn't get away and had to do as he was told which he did and did well. He soon (within a couple of training sessions) realised that he either did it his way and ended up on the leash doing as i originally requested, or my way doing as he is told off the leash and enjoying himself, and now he does as i ask 99% of the time. The above is just what i have found works for me, its not the only way and its not the best way i am sure, however I am really pleased with how Sam has progressed and bearing in mind he is only 19 weeks old, i have a fantastic relationship with him, he does as he is told, but we also have a fantastic love/respect for each other and enjoy our time together.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 One of my biggest pet peeves is off leash dogs whose behavior is not under owner's control. Reliable recall training has many steps that need to be mastered before the dog should be allowed to roam freely off leash. When I work on "off leash" recall I have the dog drag a long line. I tie knots in the line, about every 2-3 feet, so that if I need to step on the line the line won't pull from under my feet. I never allow the end of the line to get too far ahead of me so I can be prepared to step on it if need be. Leslie Nelson's DVD, Really Reliable Recall, is a great DVD. Shirley Chong also has some great information on recall training. If you are going to use treats, then when working in high distractions use something obscenely yummy: roast beef, liver, etc. For dogs with a strong prey drive I like to also use toys such as balls and tuggies. My Border collie would probably not have good off leash control if I had depended on food rewards. However, I've created a ball obsessed dog, and because of this I can call him off of almost anything. I've also taught my BC "down in motion" which is a helpful tool to use to stop forward motion and have found this easy to teach to herding breeds. BTW: yelling "bad boy" after you've caught up with the dog is way too late in the behavior sequence to punish the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 If you are going to use treats, then when working in high distractions use something obscenely yummy: roast beef, liver, etc. I'd like to add to this, too - if you are using treats to train a recall (which is my method of choice), refrain from moving too fast. If your dog can't recall in a situation with high distractions on a leash, the dog isn't going to recall when off leash. Get the recall on leash solid before letting the dog off. If your dog can't recall in situations where distractions are low, the dog isn't going to recall when distractions are high. Get the recall solid in low distractions before working among high distractions. Back when I was teaching High School, there was no air conditioning. We roasted during the first few weeks of school. The kids absolutely LOVED to call out during class (when we were sweltering), "It's SNOWING!" Every head in the room would immediately turn around toward the window. It was not because anyone really thought it was snowing on a 90 degree day - it was an automatic response that we all made before we even had time to think. When working on a recall using treats, the treats function to help develop that automatic response to the recall word. Once that automatic response is established (and this does take some time and consistency to achieve), you can start to work on the recall outside and in more distracting circumstances. If, at any time, the dog does not respond to the recall word, it's time to go back to the appropriate step in training and solidify that automatic response. I don't only use food to teach recalls, but I do use them heavily when I'm working on the foundation recall. Later I incorporate toys, release to sniff, release to explore, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcburniefarm Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I am working right now with Pirate on the "really reliable recall" I think the above advice is super and AM myself following the same advice since I had a problem with him running towards incoming cars and visitors to the farm. Just realizing that I need to keep him SAFE in an emergency was enough for me to reevaluate. I love my dog off leash....and am trying to avoid going "backwards" as it might feel....it isn't just about my desire to let him have free roam of the place, which he has so far really earned, and I truly want for him. I have not put the leash back on him...I took the "penalty" myself, of spending more of my limited time on the training. So I am working on the emergency recall so I can justify it to myself that he will be SAFE. Oh that and not rip a new fanny on the strange visitor with yippyyappy dogs in their truck. (who by the way was welcomed back the next day sans yappers) It's all related to a solid emergency recall. So I highly second above advices. BTW, is it ok to ask for used copies of Leslie's videos or would someone offer them on loan? I bought mine and would loan it when I'm sure I've got the info off it, no not yet...but I would want it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I would suggest maybe putting him back on leash. Dog's aren't unhappy being restrained to a leash. In a pack, the leader would keep them close to the pack, physicaly. The leash provides saftey, support, control, mental assurance of your protection to the dog, and a conection between you and the dog where he can feel your mood and your energy - somewhat. Taking him off the leash gives him room to run, to be out of control, and to suddenly panic when he finds out he has no boundries anymore, which would theoretically lead to him realizing he doesn't need to be in your control or pay much attention to your recall. Anyways, those are my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Annie HATES bicycles and roller blades. When I see a risk situation coming up, I put her in a "sit" position, then gently rest my hand on the back of her neck; she seems to be reassured by the touch, and that is the end of the incident. She is also not enthused about joggers, and will bark at them; a simple "that'll do" seems to do the trick and put an end to the barking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 When I work on "off leash" recall I have the dog drag a long line. I tie knots in the line, about every 2-3 feet, so that if I need to step on the line the line won't pull from under my feet. Uhhh...excellent idea. Someone told me to let Scooter drag a long line so I could step on it if I needed to. They didn't tell me about tying knots in the line. The first time I tried it, it pulled from under my feet and I almost landed on the ground! This sounds like a much less painful solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Annie HATES bicycles and roller blades. .. and Skateboards? Because, if so, she shares a passion with Senneca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustopherJones Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 .. and Skateboards? Because, if so, she shares a passion with Senneca. And Skateboards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Uhhh...excellent idea. Someone told me to let Scooter drag a long line so I could step on it if I needed to. They didn't tell me about tying knots in the line. The first time I tried it, it pulled from under my feet and I almost landed on the ground! This sounds like a much less painful solution. ------------------------------------ I hope you didn't injure yourself too badly. I guess the larger (or faster) the dog the more risky this could be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 ------------------------------------I hope you didn't injure yourself too badly. I guess the larger (or faster) the dog the more risky this could be! No injury. Kind of twisted like a pretzel and nephew and hubby had a good laugh over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Just to clarify. Colt did recall off both the runner a few weeks ago and the zooming bike a couple of days ago. It's just that he actually chased and I had to call a few times. I didn't chase him either time. I yelled Colt, Colt and took off the other way. He bolted back to me and I rewarded like crazy. I think I just worry when incidents like this happen, but I am seeing that Colt responds to the training very quickly and doesn't seem to be repeating any of these things. In the past two days we had a couple of bikes again, but this time I saw them coming and put him on the sit, stay that I do with the joggers. Worked like a charm. If he wasn't progressing so quickly with the bikes, wasn't as relaxed as he is when he is sitting there waiting for them to pass, I would put a long line on, but honestly out of about six or seven bikes now in the past week he only chased that one, though he would have chased the others had I not been prepared and surely someone is going to do something about the bikers in the park. My original question, though maybe I wasn't clear enough had to do with whether I should leash and correct him as in Aaaacchht, NO or shshshsht. Or keep on with replacing the behavior with the sit/stay/reward. The latter seems to be working for him. Now if I could just figure out how to get him to sit when he's swimming in the river and geese swim close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 My original question, though maybe I wasn't clear enough had to do with whether I should leash and correct him as in Aaaacchht, NO or shshshsht. Or keep on with replacing the behavior with the sit/stay/reward. The latter seems to be working for him. My preference would be to work on sit/stay/reward, especially since it seems to be working. If you keep him off leash, you will need to stay hyper vigilant so you can get his attention before it is too far gone and he has the opportunity to practice bad, potentially dangerous behavior. That is where the drag line comes in handy. The pup still has his freedom, but you have a little edge if reinforcement suddenly no longer matters to him -- which can easily happen with highly self-rewarding behaviors like chasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 My original question, though maybe I wasn't clear enough had to do with whether I should leash and correct him as in Aaaacchht, NO or shshshsht. Or keep on with replacing the behavior with the sit/stay/reward. The latter seems to be working for him. Now if I could just figure out how to get him to sit when he's swimming in the river and geese swim close. A little late here, but if the sit/stay/reward is working for him, then keep on keepin on. Really, there is no reason to change something if it's working...and it's positive. It's easier to teach a dog an incompatible behaviour than it is to constantly punish him for returning to you and then to re-train a recall. As for sitting in the river, well, you're on your own! You could teach him a "leave-it" or "off" command. Obviously not starting with the geese, but it can later carry over to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 As for sitting in the river, well, you're on your own! You could teach him a "leave-it" or "off" command. Obviously not starting with the geese, but it can later carry over to them. You know when I wrote that about the geese in the river I was chuckling, but today as he swam for his stick he took a little interest in a pair of geese that headed for him. It's nesting season and the geese are getting pretty assertive. I will indeed use "leave it" when I see him tweek to the geese. Now I'm actually considering that long line too. Thanks to all who posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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