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deciphering between sit and down


kylebrk
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If it makes you feel any better, my Twist, who very well knows the difference between stand and down (not the exact same as sit and down, but similar), had a habit of doing the opposite of whichever command I gave. It was a good joke among all my friends. It certainly never affected her stockwork--she is my main chore dog and my main open trial dog.

 

That said, it sounds like Piper doesn't quite understand the concept of sit. I would probably try to retrain the sit, using treats to encourage her nose (and therefore her front end) to come up as her butt goes down (that's pretty much how I train sit with a puppy). If you are consistent and don't reward her for lying down when you ask for a sit, she should learn to differentiate between the two very quickly. For training the down, I also use a treat and lower the treat to encourage the dog's head (and therefore front end) to go down (no treat unless the whole body goes down). All of my pups have learned sit and down very quickly when I use this method.

 

J,

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Is it a big deal that Piper wants to lie down when I ask her to sit. She does it everytime. In your opinions, is this a big deal? Sorry if you are all bored with the noobies dominating the threads. I quiet down for a while after this.

 

-Kyle

 

Well, depends how you look at it. IMO, No, it's not a big deal. You just need to decide what you want when you give a sit command and if she is not giving you what you want don't reward her by accepting it. Remember, she's going to offer what you have accepted in the past. One way you can do it is to to put her on a leash and when she tries to lie all the way down gently prevent her for doing it until she figures out that sit means sit. Then go back and teach her lie down seperately. She's only doing what she is doing because she thinks she's right, there is no reason to correct her at this point, just gently lead her to the right action for the command. Corrections would not need to be used until she gets to the level of training where she opts to lie down full knowing she should be sitting.

 

Deb

 

ETA: Julie and I were posting at the same time, pretty much same deal a little different approach

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the question really is "do you care?" If you do, then be specific in what you want and enforce it. If you don't care because all you want is her to stop moving, then leave it as is.

 

In the South many good handlers have been known to use the "Sit Downe" command. It means what they meant it to mean, just ask the dog... :rolleyes:

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I have had this same issue in the past and realized it was a flaw in my training, which is maybe what happened to you. I started with training 'sit', and then when I trained 'down' I would first have the dog sit and then use the treat to pull them down into the 'down.' Well, it didn't take long for my dog to do me one better when I asked for 'sit' by going down instead. Don't know if this is what happened w/ your pooch, but if it sounds familar and you decide to retrain it might help you. Best of luck :rolleyes:

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I have noticed that compared to my in-laws' Doberman and some other dogs in the various classes we've had, Odin just seems to naturally like to flop down bonelessly or drop down military-style. It's like a down is a really easy position for him to hold, both mentally and physically, and getting there is sort of fun (in as much as changing your position on command can be fun). I don't think the sit is especially hard or anything, just not as easy or as comfortable, and if I leave him at any distance in a stay he is much more restful, confident, and solid in a down. So we have had to really drill sits much more than either down or stand, and at some point I had to decide whether I was really going to make that effort or not. I decided to because I'm a slippery-sloper and didn't know what else I might start allowing :rolleyes:

 

I ask for sits regularly from a variety of other positions/tricks, and also give more reward value to a correctly-held sit-stay than a down-stay. Even at shorter distances and with less distractions then what he can do a down stay in. I also use a very, very clear hand signal for sit. He also must sit at every intersection before crossing the street, which by now is sort of automatic rather than cued. Good luck!

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Many dogs seem to subscribe to the theory "Sit is good but down is even better!" such that when they are really trying to be good, they lie down instead of sitting when asked for a sit. Actually, Jett still does this. I haven't fixed it because I realized I really don't care if she downs or sits most of the time, but maybe I should fix it. Then again, she isn't going to be an obedience dog, and for my purposes (which include working sheep, agility, and general petness) there is no real reason why she can't lie down instead of sitting.

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Just a reminder that this forum is for discussion related to training for livestock work. Questions about training not related to livestock work should go in the "General Border Collie Discussion" forum (or in "Obedience, Agility, and Flyball" if they're about training for those competitive sports.

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Just a reminder that this forum is for discussion related to training for livestock work. Questions about training not related to livestock work should go in the "General Border Collie Discussion" forum (or in "Obedience, Agility, and Flyball" if they're about training for those competitive sports.

 

Absolutely. I'll do better to communicate next time. I meant to ask if it was a big deal when considering using her for working live stock. I.E., will it be okay for her to be out in the field and lie down rather than sit.

 

I apologize for the mis-categorization.

 

I think I will retrain. I don't think it's a big deal. However, I know that Piper is capable of doing exactly what I want her to. She just needs me to train her correctly. So if we start working together on the differences between sit and down, hopefully that will make it easier to learn the finer intricacies of herding.

 

Thanks All! Your input is really invaluable.

 

-Kyle

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Absolutely. I'll do better to communicate next time. I meant to ask if it was a big deal when considering using her for working live stock. I.E., will it be okay for her to be out in the field and lie down rather than sit.

 

Okay, I thought that might possibly be the case, which is why I didn't just move the thread.

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An interesting aspect of this with regards to working in the field on stock is that, for many handlers, "lie down" can mean "lie down" but, for many others, it can mean anything from "hesitate" to "stop on your feet" to "lie down".

 

I have heard some trainers that feel "lie down" should be just that, and that "stop" should simply be a "stop on your feet", and both should be taught, along with a command to "slow down" or "hesitate" that could be "take time" or "steady". There are also some top trainers that use "lie down" for all of these but use tone of voice to indicate *how much* they want - slow down or hesitate, stop on your feet, or lie down.

 

I would think it would be pretty advisable to be deliberate off stock about what you are wanting and the result you get. Things change when you take your dog to stock and you need a good foundation and relationship before then. But, the most important things your dog needs to know before being taken to stock are his name, a recall ("here" rather than "come", as "come bye" is an on-stock command), and how to take a correction (without sulking or blowing it off).

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One our dogs will sit at the lift point, when he gets up it isn't as noticable to the sheep as when he lies down; we don't ask for a sit, he just does it. He will lie down at the top when asked. Now one time he sat right next to the set out persons leg and it looked like he was off contact to me sitting there scribing. After talking to Kate (set out) she said he didn't take his eyes off the sheep, he just happend to sit next to her. John didn't ask for anything on that lift because the lift was beautiful, Preacher just sat next to the set out person.

 

I have seen judges that dislike that style of sitting instead of lying down, one told me showed a lack of confidence...

 

I prefer a lie down when i say lie down, stand means stop on your feet. Sit generally means stop annoying me and I rarely use it in stock work. I rarely use steady to slow down instead I use a there whistle and I expect good pace from my dogs (well not my first dog...but that was my mistake)

 

cynthia

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I thought it interesting in the ISDS magazine covering the World Trial, that some dogs from down under (either AU or NZ, or both, I don't remember right off) work a bit differently from the UK and US/Canadian dogs in that they do use a "sit" where we would use a "down" or "stand". Some of them also work with their tails up, at least at times. The "style" was commented on by the person who wrote the article, and a couple of pictures accompanied it. They did a fine job, even though their style differed.

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