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Yesterday we took an off-leash hike to work on conditioning and off-leash trail manners. This is a very busy park with tons of dogs, most off-leash, mountain bikers, joggers, and hikers. Odin did great 98% of the time. He does not go off trail unless specifically invited (i.e. to enter a meadow to take a rest, and once to retrieve his Frisbee which had fallen into a brambly ravine – but waited until I gave him the ok and then responded long range to my “easy, easy” commands :D). He automatically waits at blind corners or any time he gets more than about 75 feet ahead. He waits in place when told. He self-downs when getting too excited about approaching dogs. And his manners with both people and dogs are improving by leaps and bounds (FINALLY!) To my delight, he now mostly avoids brushy trailside veg that contains a lot of poison oak and easily “leaves-it” if too close. When cyclists pass, he knows he is to get to the side of the trail with me even if they have a dog, and we are working on an automatic down there too. Many people complimented us on his good behavior, which left me with warm fuzzies.

 

However, he’s not perfect. We had one bad incident.

 

What happened was a group of joggers with a very hyper bouncy dog came along behind us and the joggers told their dog to “Get him”, i.e. “get” Odin. (:rolleyes: at that, but my eventual goal is to be bombproof even around weirdos, so whatever). Odin greets the dog as it tackles him and they bound around together for a bit, and as the joggers pass us, he followed their dog farther than his normal 75 ft at a run. At the same moment, a group of about 10 children of various ages + their adults came running down the hill in the opposite direction. They were playing some sort of version of freeze tag. Odin and the other dog ran past the frozen children, but already in just a few quick seconds I could see Odin’s interest in them (he LOVES kids, nothing makes him wigglier), confusion about the speed the other dog was going, and us behind. Quickly getting out of hand, in other words. I sharply called Odin to me and he did immediately leave the other dog, turn and race down the hill, almost hitting one of the children who was now running again. He showed no sign of slowing when he got to me so I tried to catch him but he avoided me, as now there were children running down the hill behind us and he wanted to run WITH them. I called him back again. He whirled, again almost but not quite hitting a kid running the opposite direction, and passed me going the other way, but didn’t go as far. I think it was pass # 4 before I finally had my hands securely on him, and he was gone to bonkers-land by then – wide wild eyes, no focus, etc. I immediately got out the leash, and that is what started the argument.

 

DH wanted to know why I would punish a dog who just came to me when I called. This started the fight because I DON’T think he came to me when I called. He might have finally zeroed in on repeated attempts, but I don’t consider shooting past me a successful recall. Also, in my mind, I was not punishing him, just trying to ensure he was under my control for the next 5 minutes while he calmed down and I could be sure I could trust him again. I wasn’t mad at him, but was mad at myself for not managing the situation better. As far as I can tell, he does not begrudge the leash even if he does have more freedom when off. I also thought it was important that these moms see I was taking steps to get my dog under control while all the children were passing, especially since the younger ones were at the end of their “pack”. Finally, DH wanted me to do off-leash drills instead, which I was also planning for later, but I didn’t have confidence he could successfully complete them at that moment.

 

I have never trained an animal before like this, to accompany me wherever I go and be trustworthy etc. I’ve only trained cats and rats to do fun little things that don’t matter, or inadvertently trained my family’s husky in trail manners without realizing what I was doing. I got DH’s point later which was that the second he did slow down enough, I didn’t reward him, so maybe I reinforced blowing me off? I know my timing sucks and I often don’t know the exact right response to a new situation or behavior. How would you handle a shooting-past recall? AM I expecting too much at his age? “Punishing” him when I shouldn’t? It was a distraction-extravaganza; I don’t remember ever asking him to recall under such challenging conditions. And DH is usually pretty smart. Sorry for the length and thanks for any advice you can give.

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Others may have other opinions, but I believe you were right. He was over stimulated with all the action and you did not have complete control at that point. You were right to leash him. I don't consider calling your dog to you to get a leash on a punishment, and I don't think your dog will either as long as you call him to you other times for good things.

I'm actually very impressed at his self control! :rolleyes:

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Kelly,

I agree with Jedismom that leashing him was the right thing at that time, for all the reasons you listed, i.e. shooting past you several times first, running kids, running dog, vigilant mothers, etc. Did you have treats in your pocket that you could have rewarded him with? I probably would have asked him to sit when he came to me, given him a treat, and then leashed him and walked for a while. Then I would have let him off lead again shortly afterward when the 'madness' had past to ensure him that his off-leash fun was not over. But I think that with so many distractions and fun stuff going on all around to which he was being increasingly stimulated, you were right to leash him up in order to facilitate a time-out, if only to just get his attention back.

I, also, am impressed that he listened to you at all :rolleyes: Good job.

Ailsa

BTW, sometimes it comes in handy to have a DH that has very little input in training :D

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You did the right thing to leash him when he was in that state. An elderley friend of my mothers was knocked down in a similar situation where the owner of the dog was happy to let her dog become ever more over stimulated because she wanted the dog to have fun. The elderley lady broke her leg and hip and was in hospital and rehab for months.

 

I would have treats as someone mentioned and got him to sit and do a few other rewardable things. When I walk my dogs off leash I often call them to me and reward them for coming instantly. This has resulted in a very good recall.

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I think you handled it exactly right. He *needed* to be leashed at that time and settled down. Sounds like he's doing well with off leash stuff, but at that time, with that scenario, it was too much for him at this stage. I don't consider leashing him up while waiting for his eyes to go back in his head (:rolleyes:) as punishment, and I doubt he did, either.

 

I also agree that having to catch him as he went by you the fourth time is not a recall and should NOT have been rewarded. Your DH obviously means well, but I'm with you on this one.

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I also agree. He needed to be leashed so he could "come down". Clearly EVERYTHING that was going on took him over his threshold. That's ok. He is doing really well for a dog his age, so I wouldn't worry too much. You can always find a nice quiet place with less distractions to practice his off-leash recall. It wouldn't hurt! Carrying treats in your pocket would help, so you can reward him when he co-operates in those really distracting environments.

One thing that I have done is train in an automatic sit into my recall. It goes something like this: I say, "Daisy, FRONT!" she comes running at me like a freight train and skids into a sit, just seconds before making contact with my knees. I get instant direct eye contact and she gets rewarded. It works very, very well! I should take a video of it, because she is really quit militant about her recall! It's cute.

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Wow, that's a lot of stimulation for everyone, the humans and Odin! I doubt if Odin thought he was being corrected, if he was that far out of himself. You might want to talk this out with DH. and present your side of it. Is DH into critters the way you are? If not, point out the signs you saw that showed Odin was mentally gone. If a dog is over the edge, he needs physical restraints. And in a public setting, I believe dog owners have a responsibility to be seen taking charge of their dog's behavior.

 

A couple suggestions have been made to work on his recall by calling him/releasing him a few times at every outing. That's one of the best things to do, in my opinion. And you can add to that having him on leash for a few minutes a couple times as well, just to keep him used to the idea that it's one of the things that happens, even when it's a big exciting world and kids and other dogs and all sorts of fun things are just flying around!

 

I'm so glad to hear that he's bouncing around as well as he is - WhooHooooo!

 

Ruth

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Thanks, everyone, for the tips and support!

 

1. REgarding treats - excellent idea. I was told once it was "not cool" to bring treats to the dog park for training b/c it gets all the other dogs (whose owners can't control them) worked up. Well, we will just bring treats other places he can be off leash!

 

2. Julie - great idea on the front command. We will start working that one up immediately on our walk tonight. (He gets a short off leash break near the end now, allowing us to practice around SLOW neighborhood traffic, people coming in/out of their houses, etc.) I may have gotten myself into trouble by teaching a quick round-my-back trick which involves him running to me (like a recall, but I wasn't thinking of it that way) and zooming like a comet around my back and out again. Repeats of this command make him go in "orbit" around me. It's our fun Solar System game but it could be confusing him on recalls. I like the FRONT.

 

3. He HAS to be leashed if overstimulated, and it is NOT a punishment. I am very happy to have my feelings on this confirmed.

 

4. To everyone who said he has pretty good nascent self-control, thank you so much! I really can't take a lot of credit for it. And this was some of DH's point too - he thought for a 10-mo the "only" 4 passes in that situation with NO child knock-downs was quite exemplary, especially considering the behavior of some of the other adult dogs off leash on this trail. It's weird, I feel like he's so biddable that I can mess up so much and he still does so well. When things don't go well, like here, I have no practice and feel totally flummoxed. I also compare him to dogs on this board, not dogs on the trail, so the fact he does better than the crazy golden 1/2 mile away from its owner knocking people over doesn't mean much to me. I don't ever want Odin to feel like I expect too much of him, its more like I know he's capable of so much if he were in a capable trainer's hands, which I'm just not. He's better behaved than I have any right for him to be, and if I could just hold up my end of the bargain...Well, we are signing up for a new class soon, and both looking forward to it. I tell him "a new class?" and he cocks his head that way, you know? :D

 

5. On his recovery, Ruth, it is going SO well. He just doesn't limp anymore. I can feel the musculature evening out on the two sides. He's off the metacam and there was not even a blip there. The only time we pushed him too hard (on Xmas day, I was inside while "the boys" played with him too long) he was stiff the next day - but all over, not just his shoulder.

 

6. And JEdismom, as for DH, we've completely made up and yes I did tell him the responses to this thread :D He was quite gracious about the whole thing. He loves animals maybe not exactly like I do, but with a similar intensity. He admits that now I know more about dogs and training than him, but still gives advice and lately his advice has been wearing on me b/c I want to be like, "get your OWN border collie!" How ungracious is that?!? I confess I have been dreaming of a 2-3 yo rescue girl. :rolleyes: Several times I have almost posted on the "I want this dog" thread but I want her for DH. Odin loves DH but it's just not the same at all as it is with me. And BEnway is just as great as Odin is for me, for DH, but you can't take cats with you. Egads.

 

This is such a great board. We're going off now to practice new and old things, thanks again all.

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. I think it was pass # 4 before I finally had my hands securely on him, and he was gone to bonkers-land by then – wide wild eyes, no focus, etc. I immediately got out the leash, and that is what started the argument.

 

I don't see this as punishment either - I would have done the same thiing - he was being a dork, so he lost his off leash privileges - sucks to be him doesn't it. :rolleyes:

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i And this was some of DH's point too - he thought for a 10-mo the "only" 4 passes in that situation with NO child knock-downs was quite exemplary, especially considering the behavior of some of the other adult dogs off leash on this trail.

 

My Border Collies say they all want to come live at your place - they think his expectations are much more realistic than mine! :rolleyes:

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2. Julie - great idea on the front command. We will start working that one up immediately on our walk tonight. (He gets a short off leash break near the end now, allowing us to practice around SLOW neighborhood traffic, people coming in/out of their houses, etc.) I may have gotten myself into trouble by teaching a quick round-my-back trick which involves him running to me (like a recall, but I wasn't thinking of it that way) and zooming like a comet around my back and out again. Repeats of this command make him go in "orbit" around me. It's our fun Solar System game but it could be confusing him on recalls. I like the FRONT.

 

It might be easier to start in-doors in a quiet place with less distractions and move outside once he "gets" it. I wouldn't imagine it would take him long though! The reason I started doing this was because Daisy is dog reactive, so if we are at the off leash park, I have to be able to call her to me and keep her back to on-coming dogs (the sit and look at me part) so that I can leash her and move off the path easily. When we are at the park though, I make sure that I don't only call her to leash her. I call her back and release her more often than I leash her, just so it doesn't seem like I'm ruining her fun!

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