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I've done the old-style retrieve training. I decided I'd teach Sarah, my 10-yr-old bc to retrieve with a clicker. She's having a great time and learned to mouth the dumbell quickly. She'll put her mouth around it from my hand or on the floor. However, she will NOT pick it up or hold it. If I try to hold it in her mouth for a quick second, she backs her head away. Any suggestions?

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There are two things that I would probably try.

 

First, I would do a free shaping session with her and the dumbell. I would consistently click and treat for her picking it up. Obviously, she has to drop it to take the treat. Once that got to the point where she was offering it over and over, I would try waiting her out one time. If she drops it right away, no click. Let her try different things. She might even try behaviors that have nothing to do with the dumbell. What I would be waiting for is for her to pick it up and hold it for even a couple of seconds and then I would try to capture that. I think that if you can get just a little bit of duration of the hold, you could build it from there pretty easily.

 

I wouldn't worry at this point about her sitting properly or anything - just try to shape her to the point where you can capture a few second hold.

 

If you can get her to the point where she is holding it consistently for a few seconds, I would try to name the hold and then build duration off of the cued hold.

 

OR . . .

 

Will she take if from your hand willingly if you hold it out to her in an open palm? If not, I would shape that, as well.

 

Once she is taking it, hold out your hand and say a word like "give". I would teach "take" and "give" and have her change quickly between them. I actually did this with Dean to teach him to retrieve a ball to my hand.

 

Once she knows "take" and "give", I would start building some duration off the "take". So, "take" . . . pause for a second . . ."give". I would click the give, not the hold, because she would most likley spit the dumbell out if you click the hold. She can learn it as a behavior chain.

 

Once she learns that "take" means to take it and hold it in her mouth until you cue the "give", I would incorporate that back into the actual retrieve.

 

I hope that makes sense!

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Oh, and if neither of those work, I would try teaching the "take"/"give" exercise with something she does like to hold in her mouth. Maybe a ball or sock or a particular toy. If she learned to "take" and hold until cued to "give" with something else, you might be able to transfer the cued behavior to the dumbell.

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There are two things that I would probably try.

 

First, I would do a free shaping session with her and the dumbell. I would consistently click and treat for her picking it up.

Thanks for all the info. The problem is, she won't pick it up, but simply puts her mouth around it and then lets go. I had thought to try a soft toy and see if she likes that better. She's not one to play with a toy but maybe it'll feel better and she might give it a try.

I'll let you know how that works.

L

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Thanks for all the info. The problem is, she won't pick it up, but simply puts her mouth around it and then lets go. I had thought to try a soft toy and see if she likes that better. She's not one to play with a toy but maybe it'll feel better and she might give it a try.

I'll let you know how that works.

L

 

This is where I would start, then. I would shape her to actually pick something up - whether it be the dumbell or a soft toy.

 

At this point I wouldn't even wait her out for a "hold", I would click and treat any interest she shows in the object until she is consistently mouthing it. Then I would click/treat any mouthing until she actually picks it up - even if she drops it right away. From there I would start to wait her out for any duration of a hold.

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So timely! I'm working on the same thing and having similar issues. I refuse to do any kind of "force fetch," that would completely backfire with my dog. For a very long time Lok was not interested in toys at all (except the frisbee), so awhile back I shaped him to just pick up a soft cloth tied in a knot. That was as far as we got before abandoning that project in favor of bigger and better things. Now we are taking obedience classes and obviously a retreive is required at some point. Also, now Lok is toy-crazy. He will retrieve anything that he thinks is a toy, however, it's not a controlled, obedience retrieve--it's a play retrieve: grab, shake, toss at me for another throw.

 

We have gone back to the knotted cloth (knotted because he used to step on it, thus preventing him picking it up) and for the past week or so have been working on shaping his retrieve again. I haven't managed to get any further than where I left off last time. He will pick it up but then most of the time wants to either shake it or toss it. I've mostly gotten rid of those behaviors by not clicking and rewarding for them, but now I'm back to the "pick up and drop immediately" stage. If I wait him out, I usually get shaking and tossing again or he gives up. :rolleyes:

 

My plan for tonight: Rather than having him pick it up off the ground, I'm going to try having him take it from my hand, using the "gentle" command we've been working on for taking treats nicely, then since he knows "wait" means to basically freeze where you are, I'm going to see if he will generalize that to holding the object in his mouth. If that doesn't work, Kristine, I'm going to try your Plan B. I know we just need to get to that "moment" when he understands what it is I'm looking for and that once he does he will give it to me willingly. He just depends so much on me to "tell" him what I want, since most of his training has been of the lure/reward type rather than free shaping.

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My Lhasa took a solid year of training, with input from two instructors to get a very nice obedience retrieve. I also got stalled for a very long time on the hold and one of my instructors showed me how to get a several seconds long hold in less than a week. It did not involve pinching or jerking, but was way more hands on than I ever would thought to try. But it really got us over a very big hump very easily. Since you are looking for a clicker approach, let me know if you want me to share the details. Some people want to stick to one approach, I know. I will say that Chili adores his dumbbell and it is the only thing he'll deign to retrieve.

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My Lhasa took a solid year of training, with input from two instructors to get a very nice obedience retrieve. I also got stalled for a very long time on the hold and one of my instructors showed me how to get a several seconds long hold in less than a week. It did not involve pinching or jerking, but was way more hands on than I ever would thought to try. But it really got us over a very big hump very easily. Since you are looking for a clicker approach, let me know if you want me to share the details. Some people want to stick to one approach, I know. I will say that Chili adores his dumbbell and it is the only thing he'll deign to retrieve.

 

I know some gentle holds. I'd love to hear what you used. I was hoping she'd just start picking up a soft toy so I could click but no luck. I got my younger dog play retrieving in a matter of seconds. I haven't even started training him for that. I'm not really trying for ob. work, just for the challenge (for me....I guess) :rolleyes:

Easier than trying to bring one of the goats into the house...lol

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I know some gentle holds. I'd love to hear what you used. I was hoping she'd just start picking up a soft toy so I could click but no luck.

 

I got as far as Chili picking the dumbbell up and even carrying it a few steps, then spitting it out. No way would he stand or sit still and hold it. I started with fuzzy chipmunk toy that had a Velcro opening in its stomach that could hold food. Chili would bring that all the way to me with lots of encouragement so I'd open it for him and he'd get his treat. But he wouldn't hold even that toy.

 

Anyway, what the instructor did was sit in a chair, have a treat at the ready, put one hand firmly around his collar, then with the other hand gently pushed the dumbbell into Chili's mouth, immediately holding his mouth lightly but firmly closed around the dumbbell. Of course, Chili struggled against this. The instructor gave a small gasp and Chili's struggles ceased for a second as he stared at her, she immediately said "Good!" let go of his muzzle, and popped the cookie in his mouth. I was astonished to see that Chili put his front paws on her knees looking for more treats, not at all upset over their interaction. I never thought he would have tolerated that sort of treatment but 1. there was no pain involved and 2. he immediately saw there was food for him in this weird new process. And Chili is all about the food. :rolleyes:

 

All the instructor wanted was one second of Chili not moving while holding the dumbbell on his own even if it was originally while staring at her in curiosity. The instructor did this a couple more times and each time, Chili struggled less about having the dumbbell in his mouth. Then I did it and he barely struggled. After about 2 days, I stopped giving the little gasp and we quickly worked up to several seconds of a hold, without me clutching his collar. And with more work on other aspects of the retrieve (he really hated the whole concept of fetching, I believe), he became a very enthusiastic, very cute retriever of his dumbbell (and only his dumbbell).

 

So... not a real clicker approach, but one that very quickly did the job in a way that the dog loved what I was asking him to do. I was happy.

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Sarah still has no interest in picking up anything. She's more than willing to mouth it, but will not pick it up from my hand or from the floor. On the floor she's more likely to kick it around and/or stand on it.

 

Liz, I've done that technique and it works beautifully. The only thing I added was stroking and praising them while the dumbbell was in his/her mouth ("Good, hold" and click) and then taking it with a nonchalant "out." I guess that's what I'll end up doing. But you're right. I guess it's called training with a clicker as opposed to clicker training if we're going to split hairs.

I did email a dolphin trainer some time ago and he said he rewarded for them spitting it out, since that is the final step. Then he asked that it be spitted at his hand - sort of working backwards. And then only at his hand on command. Sounds complicated to me. Anyone ever try it that way?

 

Another little thing I'd like to try is getting several dogs on a station and having them stay while I work with one dog. I know it can be done, but whether I have the time and patience, well.....

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Another little thing I'd like to try is getting several dogs on a station and having them stay while I work with one dog. I know it can be done, but whether I have the time and patience, well.....

 

I keep meaning to dig out Susan Garrett's DVD "Crate Games." Or maybe I loaned it out. Anyway, I would bet that would teach the sort of self-control for the dog to stay at a station. I've also seen a couple of articles in Clean Run a few years back about training "place" for dogs so they stay on a small mat/rug when not working.

 

On Susan's one jump DVD's, her dogs stay in their open crates, coming out when called, going right back in when instructed, watching her work other dogs with no problem. I thought perhaps she reached that level of self-control through things like her crate games.

 

I want to train this behavior more for my dogs to behave when people first come to the house. There is too much joyful pandemonium upon guests' arrival. But it would also be neat to have for things like training sessions. Thanks for the nudge to finally get working on that! :rolleyes:

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I did email a dolphin trainer some time ago and he said he rewarded for them spitting it out, since that is the final step. Then he asked that it be spitted at his hand - sort of working backwards. And then only at his hand on command. Sounds complicated to me. Anyone ever try it that way?

 

That sounds like a good idea. That way you kind of get to skip the "hold it" step because the dog has no choice but to hold it until he give it to you. However, I think you would still need to get to the step of actually picking it up rather than just mouthing it before you could put this plan into action.

 

When you are waiting for her to offer you a little more than the behavior that was getting rewarded, how long do you wait? I'm pretty new to clicker training and I don't use a clicker for everything, but I've had the same problem that you describe, with my dog just laying down and giving up when I stop rewarding a behavior. But one day I just decided to wait him out, and he first tried other behaviors he knew, then laid down for awhile, then wandered off for a few seconds--THEN he came back and tried again! And he got it right! (This was for shaping a foot target, not retreiving). I think sometimes, if the reward is desirable enough, the dog just needs some time to puzzle it out, but they are going to come back and try to earn a reward again.

 

Another little thing I'd like to try is getting several dogs on a station and having them stay while I work with one dog. I know it can be done, but whether I have the time and patience, well.....

 

That shouldn't be a big deal if the waiting dogs have a solid down-stay around distractions. Sounds a lot easier than a clicker-retrieve!

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Put the dumbell away for a bit and teach her to place her chin on your flat palm firmly on cue - until released. In order to do this she must shut her mouth. Once this is reliable have her target your closed hand for this - even following you around, until cued to place her chin on your hand but verbal or the extended upwards palm.

 

After that's solid, have her take the dumbell and then cue her to place her her chin on your hand. She will have to keep her mouth closed to do this - eliminating mouthing the dumbell or dropping it. The release is you putting your left hand on the dumbell and giving the command.

 

Gradually you add time to how long she holds the dumbell in your hand, then time build from hand removal to release command, then you start adding time between "take" and chin-in-hand, then finally at your motion between "take" and hand (following you about as above).

 

the very last thing you'll do is combine her picking up the dumbell from the floor to bring ot you.

 

I've taught this exercise many different ways and this one appears to be the most solid long term.

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Instead of using the DB to teach a retrieve and a hold - use your finger.

 

Too many people can't truly tell if the dog is actually "holding" the DB or not. We teach ours to "hold" a finger, this way you know how much pressure they are placing on the object, you can control the mouthing and you can teach a true "hold" (cause they are biting your finger!)

 

Also, they learn to be careful, have a softer mouth and can learn a proper release.

 

Karen

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about training "place" for dogs so they stay on a small mat/rug when not working.

I had dogs years ago that would do this - but I used corrections to get it. Since my dogs are mostly older and not akc ob. dogs anymore, I just want to do it for fun.

 

btw I tried a new toy for Sarah (a stuffed sheep, of course) easier for her to get her mouth around than the stuffed owl. She's progressed to grabbing it off my knee and throwing it to the floor...progress? hehe.

L

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When you are waiting for her to offer you a little more than the behavior that was getting rewarded, how long do you wait?

 

I quit when I feel I'm getting frustrated. This is supposed to be fun, right...? You're right though. I don't wait long. I'll try to see what happens if I give her more time.

 

That shouldn't be a big deal if the waiting dogs have a solid down-stay around distractions.

 

Ha. There is no solid down-stay here. These are all working dogs. Lie down means stand there until something moves....We're at square one with this one. (Well, we're at square one on most things that don't involve sheep.)

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Put the dumbell away for a bit and teach her to place her chin on your flat palm firmly on cue - until released. In order to do this she must shut her mouth. Once this is reliable have her target your closed hand for this - even following you around, until cued to place her chin on your hand but verbal or the extended upwards palm.

 

After that's solid, have her take the dumbell and then cue her to place her her chin on your hand. She will have to keep her mouth closed to do this - eliminating mouthing the dumbell or dropping it. The release is you putting your left hand on the dumbell and giving the command.

 

Gradually you add time to how long she holds the dumbell in your hand, then time build from hand removal to release command, then you start adding time between "take" and chin-in-hand, then finally at your motion between "take" and hand (following you about as above).

 

the very last thing you'll do is combine her picking up the dumbell from the floor to bring ot you.

 

I've taught this exercise many different ways and this one appears to be the most solid long term.

 

OOOO I like this idea.!!!

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Instead of using the DB to teach a retrieve and a hold - use your finger.

 

Too many people can't truly tell if the dog is actually "holding" the DB or not. We teach ours to "hold" a finger, this way you know how much pressure they are placing on the object, you can control the mouthing and you can teach a true "hold" (cause they are biting your finger!)

 

Also, they learn to be careful, have a softer mouth and can learn a proper release.

 

Karen

 

Hi,

 

This is the same thing I've done with my dogs....I really like it because you can praise them when it is exactly the hold you want. They seem to really understand hold when you introduce it this way. I put a glove on when I do this just in case my dog uses too much pressure initally.

 

For dogs that don't like the DB, but do like toys, you can try wrapping the bar in a soft cloth or some fleece initally. If you are using a plastic DB, you might want to try a wooden one(or vise versa). Some dogs seem to prefer one over the other.

 

Happy Training~

 

Janet

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Step 5 from that article is very similar to the approach I've been taking lately. Before, I was having Lok pick up the object from the ground. Now, I am holding both sides of the dumbell and asking for a gentle "take". Once he takes the dumbell in his mouth, if he shakes his head or tries to spit it out right away, I just give an "oops" no-reward marker. We've had a breakthrough using this method because I'm able to stop the head-shaking/kill behavior that's been really self-rewarding for him. In that past couple days (just a minute of work each day) I've been able to get several 2-3 second holds from him using this method, with my hands still on the dumbell. As this gets consistent, the next step will be taking my hands off and having him hold it on his own.

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