Depends on the dog

[Mark Billadeau]

To me it would depend entirely on the effect that it had on the dog.

 

If it caused the dog to shut down or become fearful or to "check out mentally" in some way, then I would consider it a negative correction.

 

If it simply caused the dog to do something different, then I would consider it a neutral directive.

So not only does the effectiveness of the technique depend upon the teacher and student but the classifcation of the technique depends upon how the student reacts.

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

Body pressure (in stock work) is used to push the dog away from you; you move towards the dog to alter its path. Or you can simply block the path the dog is taking (or wants to take) forcing the dog to choose another path. When balancing with a young dog and you want it to stop you'll continue to block the dog from taking either pathway around the sheep until it stops moving.

 

Mark

 

 

I didn't believe it until I could do it with my dogs, but once the dog understood the requirement you can use body pressure to apply a correction and the dog will give you the right behaivor. For example, I wanted my dog to walk up, he refused, I took a step straight at him, and he said yes mame and walked up toward the sheep, immediately when he committed to walking up I released pressure. I figured the pressure would have sent him away from me, but it didn't. Once the dog starts working to that level, you can walk right up to him and move around him, he understands that he is not wrong and is fine with you moving into him.

 

The other night I was working on recall, my dog was coming to me but not in at the proper speed and with conviction, I walked into him telling him it was unacceptable, called him again this time hissing him up, when he sped up a bit I left him. Next time I recalled him, he opted to drag his feet, I walked into him again, stepped back recalled and he beat feet to me. That correction process not only made my recall snappier it also changed the manner that he walked up, flanked and stopped, all were way more business like.

 

And, as far as turning the dog off with pressure, if the dog is wrong, off is not bad, it is an option different then the path that he is on, you just don't want him to think that off is the only option by accepting it and rewarding the dog for it, some dogs don't go there often, some do, the ones that do we can take that away, typically when they are off they are looking out away from the sheep or out of the pen, so you change the pressure so that they have to do something other then looking out, even if it means putting pressure on that sends them toward the sheep.

 

Being able to correct and place a dog via pressure change can be a real cool tool, once you teach the dog what you want and label it as a command, the command turns into pressure, giving you the ability to give your dog instruction at a vast distance. I think since no other dog sport requires so many commands at a distance with the dog interacting with a 3rd party (sheep) the other sports can use other methods. It is pretty tough on a dog though that only knows positive reinforcement through clicker, verbal or treats to get their head around using pressure as a way to figure out what we want, so many use pressure to just get the dog to stop what they are doing, and don't want them to do anything else, basically as a punishment. I think it would be beneficial for people that want to herd with their dog to not go those routes to begin with, because we have to undo some of the training to get what we want. I feel bad for students that want so badly to praise their dog when it goes out on a flank, the dog stops in his tracks all proud of himself, the praise tells the dog the task is done not that he should continue on, another hard one is the dog that was trained to "Watch Me", how can he watch the sheep when he thinks he is suppose to watch the handler?

 

Our instructor claims that pressure/release is a universal language, you can use it to teach the dog anything for any discipline, it also work on people, horses, cattle, sheep, etc. I had an ISU student here that trains trick ponies, it is the process he uses to teach them their tricks. I know that many people don't agree with it, but I think it is because they have not seen it used properly or can't grasp it's potential. There is an art to using it, the handler has to have good timing and know what they want, and be willing to accept the change that will lead them there, it can be used to shape or mold a dog into a proper behaivor.

 

Deb

[kajarrel]

Interesting, I think I do use body pressure as a correction (and maybe even as punishment), I guess, by moving in a way that gets the young dog's attention and makes it a little uncomfortable so that it "sees the errors of its ways" and decreases and undesired behavior. Probably also use my body to provide negative reinforcement too, when I relieve pressure when the young dog is doing the right thing and positive reinforcement when I facilitate appropriate behavior. Never really thought of it that way, must admit.

 

Kim

[dogsofmenace]

I disagree...the degree of delivery will depend on the recipient. Some dogs are very soft, some are hard-headed. You work with the animal who is in front of you and adjust to fit the situation. A correction should be only as much as it takes, but as little as possible.

You're right. I guess what I should have stated was that you can't keep doing tiny "corrections" on a dog, like repeated tugs on a leash or say "No, no, no!", when it isn't responding to those corrections. A correction, if used at all, needs to be short and sweet, enough to get through to the particular dog. No, I wouldn't do the same correction on a soft dog than one that is really pushy with me.

 

No, I don't think your teaching your dog to do anything but stop what they are doing, which is just in that moment. In a clinic this spring I was told I was yelling at my dog without even speaking, rather then putting just enough pressure on the dog to create change I was blowing him out and trying to force change, in essence yelling. Until I stopped yelling he didn't learn anything and rather quite trying to learn anything, he just put his b/w little paws over his ears and quit completely or tried harder to get away from me so he could do as he pleased. The clinicianer pointed out that my dog did not want to be with me, I don't treat train so if he is with me it's because he wants to be, the only way I could keep him with me was on leash. I worked real hard to change my approach, now he's like glue, he keeps trying to melt me with his soft eyes, gawd....

 

I definitly understand where you are coming from, but let me state that I RARELY use corrections on my dogs at all, and never in regular training. If my dog breaks a stay or doesn't hold a contact position in agility, no I don't freak out on them. I would use a correction for, say, them nipping me when they are excited. Like you said, forcing a dog into anything using corrections will just shut a dog down, which is definitly not what I want.

[Debbie Meier]

I definitly understand where you are coming from, but let me state that I RARELY use corrections on my dogs at all, and never in regular training.

 

"If my dog does something that needs a correction, I FREAK OUT and start yelling and throwing stuff. I don't touch them at all, but they are scared sh*tless and you can bet they won't do it again. The only time I use a physical punishment is a leash pop if they are pulling really hard or won't leave a squirrel or another dog alone. "

 

 

 

To me, any time you apply a correction you want to be training, you want to teach that dog that he needs to apply himself differently in that situation. Trying to treat the dog one way while he is on leash at the dog park is not going to help you be productive when you treat him differently in the agility arena (I'm referring in part to the yelling freak out thing, it's being used as a punishment). I only mention it because I have seen how much more productive training sessions are when we don't have to undo what was being done or allowed at home, or teach the dog that now we want a different response when we do this or that then we expect at home. Having your corrections and expectations consistent at home and in the training arena will help make your training sessions more productive.

 

Deb

[Root Beer]

So not only does the effectiveness of the technique depend upon the teacher and student but the classifcation of the technique depends upon how the student reacts.

 

Mark

 

Yes - because the dog is an individual. One would say that food is positive reinforcement, but if I were popping pickles into my dog's mouths, it would be punishment. They all hate pickles. They would begin to avoid whatever was causing the pickles to be put in their mouths. If I did it enough, they would start to avoid being near me.

 

I knew a dog in an Agility class once who would only work to have Kleenex tissues waved around in front of his face. It was the strangest thing I've ever seen. But food was not rewarding to that dog, seeing the tissues waved around was.

 

A positive reinforcer is something that the dog is motivated to work for. It's not what the handler thinks the dog should work for.

 

A punisher is something that the dog is motivated to avoid. It's not what the handler thinks the dog should avoid.

 

Some things are pretty universal. Most dogs find an electric shock on the neck something to avoid. Most dogs find raw beef something to work for. But a lot of things will vary from dog to dog. Reaction to body pressure is one of those things. Dean loves when people move into his space - he moves forward and gives hugs and kisses. Speedy doesn't like it (unless it's me) and will run the other direction.

 

It's not so much about classification, but about the dog's reaction.

[Root Beer]

I know that many people don't agree with it, but I think it is because they have not seen it used properly or can't grasp it's potential. There is an art to using it, the handler has to have good timing and know what they want, and be willing to accept the change that will lead them there, it can be used to shape or mold a dog into a proper behaivor.

 

I'd say the exact same thing about clicker training.

 

 

 

 

Edited: I replaced the deleted double post with this reply.

[nancy in AZ]

Would you (the collective you) consider body pressure (in the herding training sense) positive reinforcement or negative correction?

 

Mark

 

Well in terms of operant conditioning, it would be negative reinforcement. The pressure is removed as the dog responds correctly (removal of stimulus (pressure) to increase a desired behavior)

[dogsofmenace]

I definitly understand where you are coming from, but let me state that I RARELY use corrections on my dogs at all, and never in regular training.

 

"If my dog does something that needs a correction, I FREAK OUT and start yelling and throwing stuff. I don't touch them at all, but they are scared sh*tless and you can bet they won't do it again. The only time I use a physical punishment is a leash pop if they are pulling really hard or won't leave a squirrel or another dog alone. "

To me, any time you apply a correction you want to be training, you want to teach that dog that he needs to apply himself differently in that situation. Trying to treat the dog one way while he is on leash at the dog park is not going to help you be productive when you treat him differently in the agility arena (I'm referring in part to the yelling freak out thing, it's being used as a punishment). I only mention it because I have seen how much more productive training sessions are when we don't have to undo what was being done or allowed at home, or teach the dog that now we want a different response when we do this or that then we expect at home. Having your corrections and expectations consistent at home and in the training arena will help make your training sessions more productive.

 

Deb

 

 

Whoa, I can see that I'm really not being very good at explaining myself. I'm not saying that when I use corrections I'm not training my dog. You are ALWAYS training your dog, no matter what you do. What I was trying to say is that I do use corrections, but not for teaching behaviors like an obedience or agility things. I don't think those two statements I made contradict each other at all, if that is what you are trying to say. I don't treat my dogs any differently whether they are sitting around, on leash at the park, or doing agility, and I don't know how you took what I had written to mean that. "If my dog does something that needs a correction" I correct them for it, no matter the situation. But I rarely think that things need corrections. An example I already used is if my dogs nips at me. If isn't a hard nip, I simply end whatever we were doing and that is their punishment. If they nip me hard they are corrected by me yelling, which to me is a better punishment than something physical. If my dog sees a squirrel or another dog and doesn't respond to a "leave it" command, they get a leash pop. This will happen no matter where they are. I'm always consistent with my training, otherwise it would fall apart wherever I go.

[Shetlander]

To me it would depend entirely on the effect that it had on the dog.

 

If it caused the dog to shut down or become fearful or to "check out mentally" in some way, then I would consider it a negative correction.

 

If it simply caused the dog to do something different, then I would consider it a neutral directive.

 

If the dog really enjoyed that pressure and was actually working "for" it, then it would be positive reinforcement.

 

 

The dog shutting down or becoming fearful is at least somewhat of a separate issue from the punishment/reinforcement isn't it? I think this is where training discussions break down and words become so emotionally charged. To me punishment is a fairly neutral term but others find it offensive and still others see all corrections as a harsh. We're not all using the same terminology and certainly not in the same way.

 

Not that I am an operant expert.... but I agree with Nancy from AZ who says pressure is negative reinforcement. The dog doesn't need to feel pain or fear or become overwhelmed, he just wants to get away from it and by doing so is reinforced. Quinn is a pretty soft dog but on sheep he is very keen and pressure only tells him to do something different.

 

It's true that every dog is an individual and what one finds punishing or reinforcing, another may not care. But it is also true that a dog may find something punishing and not be pained, frightened, or shut down. He simply figures out something else to do or in the case of sheep, another way to continue working and is perfectly fine -- or in Quinn's case is incredibly happy.

 

I need my dog to see me moving into his or her space as a very neutral - or even a very good - thing! Optimally, I want me moving into my dog's space to be positive reinforcement to my dog.

 

When I was dabbling in obedience, our instructor noticed Quinn's discomfort with working close. The instructor said she often saw that in BC's which makes sense in that you would want a certain amount of sensitivity to pressure in a herding dog. This was pre sheep lessons so Quinn wasn't responding from previous experience. While I hung in there for obedience, I put a fair amount of emphasis was training Quinn to be comfortable while working very close to me. In agility, he never cared one way or the other, because that was all fun and games.