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There have been so many threads about training styles, and invariably someone will be firmly in favor of positive reinforcement (and says that leash pops, et al do not work), and someone will come out in favor of physical corrections (and derides cookie feeding). What usually seems to be the outcome of these threads is that you have to try few styles and see what works. It seems that two trainers could try exactly the same thing on a dog and get very different results, and this is usually attributed to either the handler's timing and the dog's personality. I'm wondering if the reason is that a dog is such a good judge of sincerity: if you don't believe in the correction (or the reward), neither will your dog.

 

Thoughts?

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I'm wondering if the reason is that a dog is such a good judge of sincerity: if you don't believe in the correction (or the reward), neither will your dog.

I've always held that you can't lie to a dog; your dog cannot lie to you. They read our body language and it's extremely hard to fake it. Likewise, dogs cannot help but show their true feelings.

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There have been so many threads about training styles, and invariably someone will be firmly in favor of positive reinforcement (and says that leash pops, et al do not work), and someone will come out in favor of physical corrections (and derides cookie feeding). What usually seems to be the outcome of these threads is that you have to try few styles and see what works. It seems that two trainers could try exactly the same thing on a dog and get very different results, and this is usually attributed to either the handler's timing and the dog's personality. I'm wondering if the reason is that a dog is such a good judge of sincerity: if you don't believe in the correction (or the reward), neither will your dog.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is definitely an interesting question to ponder.

 

I think that the individual skills, aptitude, and attitude of the handler do play a part in the results that he or she will have when using a certain method of training with a dog. I'm not sure it's so much about the dog believing the handler - although I wouldn't rule that out as a factor - as the full picture of what is happening.

 

I would say that if someone doesn't believe that a particular method or style will be effective, he or she might not really learn how to use that method or style thoroughly and correctly, and that will impact effectiveness.

 

I know that when I first started playing "Look at That" from CU, I was dubious. I wasn't dead set against the possibility of it working or I obviously wouldn't have tried, but I had serious doubts. Had effectiveness been based on my attitude, it certainly wouldn't have worked! Once I saw it working I became a "believer" in that particular technique. But to get to that point, I had to be willing to try to play the game as it is supposed to be played - and that is where my own attitude was part of the big picture.

 

Of course, I expect my dog to "read" my attitude, but I've found that if my attitude is, "I'm not sure about this, but let's give it a go", the dog is not negatively impacted by that.

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There have been so many threads about training styles, and invariably someone will be firmly in favor of positive reinforcement (and says that leash pops, et al do not work), and someone will come out in favor of physical corrections (and derides cookie feeding). What usually seems to be the outcome of these threads is that you have to try few styles and see what works.

 

Any training method works up to a point but some work better than others.

Not only that, there are some methods that many feel are unethical and damage the relationship between dog and handler.

Ask yourself what sort of relationship you want with your dog? Do you have a need to show him that you're the boss or do you respect him as an independent living entity that you need to guide to fit in with the requirements of the life we impose on him?

Do you believe in using brain rather than brawn?

A handler who is an empathetic sort of person and who can see his dog's point of view is more likely to opt for positive methods.

A handler who is only interested in getting an apparent result as quickly as possible without too much regard for how s/he gets there and what their dog thinks about it will probably go down the punishment route.

 

There are gradations between the two extemes of course. I'll admit to being harder on our BC than my other dogs, but he is bombproof and by "harder" I still mean pretty mild compared to those who see nothing wrong with punishment devices.

 

There are things I don't do routinely with my dogs but wouldn't necessarily rule out entirely, and there are things beyond the boundary which I will not cross.

 

I hope that I'm open minded enough to give anything I am comfortable with a fair trial. If I'm not comfortable with it, I won't try it anyway.

 

That's looking from the positive POV. In the opposite direction, I know plenty of correction/ punishment who are totally dismissive of other approaches and wouldn't move an inch towards them. Try to persuade one of them that clicker training works and you'll see what I mean.

 

Pam

 

There is a world of difference between giving something a reasonable trial if no harm will be caused if it doesn't work and trying something negative that could do irreparable damage.

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Not that I'm a real trainer - I only play one on TV - But I'd expect that training is a collaboration & negotiation between the trainer and the dog. The better the trainer's skills, the more willing the dog, the better the outcome; but no two pairings will work quite the same way as any other, no matter how successful the results. Trainers become more skilled, dogs have personalities that develop, and dogs themselves become more skilled - at cooperation or resistance, as their nature inclines - and they've got differing motivations and drives.

 

There's a science to training - we've all seen it. But there's an art to it, too... We've all seen that, as well.

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Communication relies on both parties; the "speaker" and the "listener". The "speaker" must be very clear and consistant in the language being use and the "listener" must be open to understanding the language used.

 

IMHO neither 100% positive nor 100% negative are very effective teaching methods.

Like teaching people, you often need to find the teaching method that works best for that individual student. The better teachers/trainers find the method(s) that works best for the individual student.

 

Mark

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IMHO neither 100% positive nor 100% negative are very effective teaching methods.

 

This is true.

 

Also, dogs don't fall victim to training politics like people do. So far this "Control Unleashed" business has been proposed to solve everything from poor recalls to dog aggression to the peak oil crisis. Ten years ago I would not have been surprised to see Karen Prior or Jean Donaldson's names spraypainted on building walls as a form of dog training revolutionary underground movement. Now it's this CU person. Everybody's always looking for a hero instead of just learning how to communicate with their dog.

 

In the other thread about some really serious and intense interdog aggression, someone suggested buying a book like "The Dog Listener" or something - as if a book about pack dominance theory can really address seriously or potentially deadly behavioral issues! The only thing that trains your dog is YOU ... not a book, not a movement, not a bunch of rhetoric. How well you and your dog communicate depends largely on how willing you are to actually train your dog. But just as different dogs work for different motivators, different trainers are going to be able to grasp and implement certain methods more effectively than others.

 

In a car-chasing thread someone said they "COULD NOT" perform a strong enough come-to-jesus correction on their car-chasing puppy. If you can't deliver that correction, then of course it will not work. So I think it's more the trainer's capability, and less the trainer's sincerity, that is the issue. JMO.

 

RDM

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Let's look at it from the dog' point of view. Think back to when you were a student.

 

How many of you have studied a subject and couldn't grasp the concept until it was taught to you in just the right way? I have; in one case I didn't "get it" until it was presented to me for the third time in three different chemistry courses. The subject was exactly the same; it was just presented in a slightly different manor (one that my mind could grasp).

 

It didn't matter to me which teaching philosophy was used; what mattered to me is understanding what they were trying to teach me.

 

Mark

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if you don't believe in the correction (or the reward), neither will your dog.

 

This is one of the most common things I run into with novice sheepdog people (and I'd imagine it happens in other "doggie sports" but I'm not involved there so I have no firsthand knowledge). The handler, understandably, is not sure they are right when they are first starting out, so the correction they give is weak, at best. The dog doesn't respond to the correction, and the handler then wonders why. So then I explain to them that they didn't believe themselves when they gave the correction, so why should the dog? Then I love watching when the handler starts gaining confidence, conveying that to the dog, the timing of the corrections gets better and better, and the dog and handler start to click.

 

J

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Everybody's always looking for a hero instead of just learning how to communicate with their dog.

The only thing that trains your dog is YOU ... not a book, not a movement, not a bunch of rhetoric. How well you and your dog communicate depends largely on how willing you are to actually train your dog. So I think it's more the trainer's capability, and less the trainer's sincerity, that is the issue. JMO. RDM

 

As usual RDM, you post some stimulating discussion. :rolleyes: I believe that some people have an innate sense of what to do with animals and others absolutely no clue. In an attempt to learn how to communicate and train their dog, they turn to different books, shows, etc. I don't see that this is necessarily wrong. You have to start somewhere. I agree thatithe problem comes in when people don't follow through with the training method that they deem will fit their situation. Regarding sincerity, in my case, my sincerity communicates itself down the leash and into my dog, so I need both.

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Also, dogs don't fall victim to training politics like people do. So far this "Control Unleashed" business has been proposed to solve everything from poor recalls to dog aggression to the peak oil crisis. Ten years ago I would not have been surprised to see Karen Prior or Jean Donaldson's names spraypainted on building walls as a form of dog training revolutionary underground movement. Now it's this CU person. Everybody's always looking for a hero instead of just learning how to communicate with their dog.

RDM

 

Although I LOVE CU, Karen Prior and Jean Donaldson, and really, they are all quite similar, I think the point you are making is good.

The thing about people is that they want a strict set of rules to follow that they know will help their dog, instead of taking suggestions and doing things specifically for their own dog. I've read every positive reinforcement, aggression, and behavior book out there, but I don't treat any one of them like a bible. I take different parts from each of them and use it all to help my dog.

 

Relating to the OP, I do believe that if someone is close-minded about a particular style of training, they will never be successful with it, and that just adds to their close-mindedness (e.i. "Positive reinforcement doesn't ever work, pinch his ear to get him to retrieve!!"). A good dog trainer is open to different styles and is willing to take pieces from Control Unleashed, Jean Donaldson, etc, and turn it into what works for a particular dog.

All that being said, I will add that I don't really think positive punishment has any place in teaching most behaviors, especially agility or obedience stuff. I want my dog to work because their happy, not because they are afraid of a correction!

 

In a car-chasing thread someone said they "COULD NOT" perform a strong enough come-to-jesus correction on their car-chasing puppy. If you can't deliver that correction, then of course it will not work. So I think it's more the trainer's capability, and less the trainer's sincerity, that is the issue. JMO.

 

Too true. Whenever you use a correction, it really has to be a big one. Tugging and tugging on a dogs leash and saying "No no no!" because it is chasing something won't help. A shock collar put on a low setting, it probably won't work either. Any correction has to be BIG (and timed correctly) or you shouldn't be using corrections at all. And it doesn't have to be physical, either. If my dog does something that needs a correction, I FREAK OUT and start yelling and throwing stuff. I don't touch them at all, but they are scared sh*tless and you can bet they won't do it again. The only time I use a physical punishment is a leash pop if they are pulling really hard or won't leave a squirrel or another dog alone.

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IMHO neither 100% positive nor 100% negative are very effective teaching methods.

Like teaching people, you often need to find the teaching method that works best for that individual student. The better teachers/trainers find the method(s) that works best for the individual student.

 

Mark

 

I think that this illustrates the "depends on the handler" aspect very nicely! :rolleyes:

 

True, when teaching people - which I do in both dog training and my professional life - one needs to find the method that works best for the student.

 

At the same time, though, the particulars of the individual teacher come into play. Even when teaching people, there are things that might work in theory that I simply won't do for one of two reasons. A. I do not see it as respectful to the person I am teaching. B. It does not fit my individual teaching style.

 

So, for instance, I do not embarrass my human students on purpose to make a point. This has been presented to me at times as a perfectly valid and effective teaching tool. I choose not to use that technique in spite of the fact that "it works" for others.

 

In the same way, when teaching dogs, or teaching others to teach their dogs, there are things that I simply don't do or promote to others. Correction in training is one of those things. I'm not making a judgment on anyone who does use corrections - I am simply saying that I choose not to use them for reasons that make sense to me.

 

I have found 100% positive to be effective for me. I have helped my students to learn postive techniques that often help their dogs - at times very much to their surprise.

 

Many of you see things very differently. I think that the OP brought up a very good point in that it doesn't just depend on the dog, but on the handler, as well.

 

Depends on the dog. Depends on the student. Depends on the teacher. Depends on the rapport between dog and handler or rapport between teacher and student.

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Depends on the dog. Depends on the student. Depends on the teacher. Depends on the rapport between dog and handler or rapport between teacher and student.

 

I think it also depends on the requirement, you yourself teach 100% positive reinforcement, but, I have yet to see anyone able to train a stock dog to the finish with 100% positive reinforcement with no corrections. Has it been done?

 

Deb

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IMHO neither 100% positive nor 100% negative are very effective teaching methods.

Like teaching people, you often need to find the teaching method that works best for that individual student. The better teachers/trainers find the method(s) that works best for the individual student.

 

Mark

I think that this illustrates the "depends on the handler" aspect very nicely! :rolleyes:

 

True, when teaching people - which I do in both dog training and my professional life - one needs to find the method that works best for the student.

 

 

I have found 100% positive to be effective for me. I have helped my students to learn postive techniques that often help their dogs - at times very much to their surprise.

 

I think its great that you are able to do 100% positive. I'd really like to take that approach with my next dog, but I find it hard not to do the occasional leash pop for a quick fix. It sure doesn't have a lasting effect on their behavior.

 

But I was going to mention that yes, 100% positive CAN be a very effective training method, if you yourself are 100% into it.

Ever read Shaping Success?

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I think it also depends on the requirement, you yourself teach 100% positive reinforcement, but, I have yet to see anyone able to train a stock dog to the finish with 100% positive reinforcement with no corrections. Has it been done?

 

I don't know. My experience is in pet/sport training. If someone has, it would be interesting to hear about it, but I have no idea if anybody has or not.

 

Ever read Shaping Success?

 

Yes! I got that last year when Dean was going crazy when other dogs were taking turns on the Agility equipment. Someone recommended it to me to try to help him. It turned out that Control Unleashed gave me the tools to teach him to be calm around dogs doing Agility, but once he had his head, Shaping Success was very useful! :rolleyes:

 

But I was going to mention that yes, 100% positive CAN be a very effective training method, if you yourself are 100% into it.

 

Another excellent illustration of "depends on the handler"! :D

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Whenever you use a correction, it really has to be a big one. Tugging and tugging on a dogs leash and saying "No no no!" because it is chasing something won't help. A shock collar put on a low setting, it probably won't work either. Any correction has to be BIG (and timed correctly) or you shouldn't be using corrections at all. And it doesn't have to be physical, either. If my dog does something that needs a correction, I FREAK OUT and start yelling and throwing stuff. I don't touch them at all, but they are scared sh*tless and you can bet they won't do it again. The only time I use a physical punishment is a leash pop if they are pulling really hard or won't leave a squirrel or another dog alone.

 

 

I disagree...the degree of delivery will depend on the recipient. Some dogs are very soft, some are hard-headed. You work with the animal who is in front of you and adjust to fit the situation. A correction should be only as much as it takes, but as little as possible.

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Too true. Whenever you use a correction, it really has to be a big one. Tugging and tugging on a dogs leash and saying "No no no!" because it is chasing something won't help. A shock collar put on a low setting, it probably won't work either. Any correction has to be BIG (and timed correctly) or you shouldn't be using corrections at all. And it doesn't have to be physical, either. If my dog does something that needs a correction, I FREAK OUT and start yelling and throwing stuff. I don't touch them at all, but they are scared sh*tless and you can bet they won't do it again. The only time I use a physical punishment is a leash pop if they are pulling really hard or won't leave a squirrel or another dog alone.

 

 

No, I don't think your teaching your dog to do anything but stop what they are doing, which is just in that moment. In a clinic this spring I was told I was yelling at my dog without even speaking, rather then putting just enough pressure on the dog to create change I was blowing him out and trying to force change, in essence yelling. Until I stopped yelling he didn't learn anything and rather quite trying to learn anything, he just put his b/w little paws over his ears and quit completely or tried harder to get away from me so he could do as he pleased. The clinicianer pointed out that my dog did not want to be with me, I don't treat train so if he is with me it's because he wants to be, the only way I could keep him with me was on leash. I worked real hard to change my approach, now he's like glue, he keeps trying to melt me with his soft eyes, gawd....

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I think it also depends on the requirement, you yourself teach 100% positive reinforcement, but, I have yet to see anyone able to train a stock dog to the finish with 100% positive reinforcement with no corrections. Has it been done?

 

Deb

If your young dog grabs and hangs onto a sheep while it's running off, how do you only use 100% positive reinforcement?

If your young dog likes to split off a single and chase it, how do you only use 100% positive reinforcement?

 

Training for livestock work is a 3 party issue where you are responsible for the safety of the training object. Most other things taught to dogs are 2 party issues, the training object (dumb bell, a-frame, ball, etc) cannot die if you let the wrong behavior go without a correction. Treating wounded sheep or having to burry a dead sheep will prove this to you.

 

Mark

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Polly Matzinger probably comes closest, out of all the successful stockdog trainers I know.

 

I think it also depends on the requirement, you yourself teach 100% positive reinforcement, but, I have yet to see anyone able to train a stock dog to the finish with 100% positive reinforcement with no corrections. Has it been done?

 

Deb

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although methods and opinions may vary once thing is more or less sure is that's it's quite hard (maybe impossible) to "ruin" a dog with positive methods, and that it happens all the time with negative methods.

 

Specially since this is a BC board and they are quite sensitive about corrections negative methods a lot of times ruin the dogs drive.

And this also varies with trainer yes...we've all seen some trainers ruin good dogs where others would probably have been quite successful.

 

I for one am all for positive training, although the occasional "hand bite" on the neck/push might be necessary..specially with some larger more suborn breeds.

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I've thought about this a lot, too - because there are obviously people who are close to experts on these boards, from both sides of the training divide. And if they're all really effective, can it really be the "protocol," or is it probably the trainer? I've decided it's probably the trainer more than anything else.

 

I mentioned in an earlier thread somewhere that all the dogs I've had in my adult life have more or less settled in and become similarly behaved: calm and lying about in the house, happy to take long walks, happy to come when called back to the leash if we're out, willing to stop what they're doing when told to do so with a firm "eeeh." Mind you, I'm not training for stockwork, but I've been successful in shaping a dog who works and follows the necessary commands for survival in the suburbs.

 

I had never read any books on dog training until I brought this wild-child reactive dog Buddy home a few years ago. But Buddy's behavior now is pretty much the same as the behavior of the previous dogs, who came from different backgrounds and experienced me without all the dog-book-learnin'.

 

But... I was raised by calm, consistent parents, who set down rules and expected them to be followed. The only experience I had in training previous dogs was the life experience of watching my parents train me with calmness and consistency.

 

That's the key, I think, more than any specific methodology or training system: having simple but solid expectations and believing in them enough to insist that they are honored. I think all the good training "experts" who write books and run workshops are probably more successful than the owners because the trainers set up and enforce clear behavioral expectations. If the methodology they promote gives clueless owners a system that pushes them into the clear, consistent training methods, then that's why the method succeeds.

 

I suspect there are millions and millions of good owners who are wired to be clear and consistent with their pets, regardless of whether they say they're into "Control Unleashed," "Click to Calm" or Cesar Milan. I think it's the underlying wiring - which produces trusting, solid relationships - that leads to success of any method.

 

Mary

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Would you (the collective you) consider body pressure (in the herding training sense) positive reinforcement or negative correction?

 

Mark

 

To me it would depend entirely on the effect that it had on the dog.

 

If it caused the dog to shut down or become fearful or to "check out mentally" in some way, then I would consider it a negative correction.

 

If it simply caused the dog to do something different, then I would consider it a neutral directive.

 

If the dog really enjoyed that pressure and was actually working "for" it, then it would be positive reinforcement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, from what I understand about body pressure in stockwork, it is not something that I would incorporate into sport training. In sports, there are times when I am going to move directly into my dog's space and I might want my dog to hold a stay or actually move willingly into me at the same time. I need my dog to see me moving into his or her space as a very neutral - or even a very good - thing! Optimally, I want me moving into my dog's space to be positive reinforcement to my dog.

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Body pressure (in stock work) is used to push the dog away from you; you move towards the dog to alter its path. Or you can simply block the path the dog is taking (or wants to take) forcing the dog to choose another path. When balancing with a young dog and you want it to stop you'll continue to block the dog from taking either pathway around the sheep until it stops moving.

 

Mark

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Body pressure (in stock work) is used to push the dog away from you; you move towards the dog to alter its path. Or you can simply block the path the dog is taking (or wants to take) forcing the dog to choose another path. When balancing with a young dog and you want it to stop you'll continue to block the dog from taking either pathway around the sheep until it stops moving.

 

Mark

 

I remember doing that with Speedy. When he was going counter clockwise I had to move toward the fence every single time to get him to turn the other way. He turned with the slightest movement into his path whe he was going clockwise, but when he went counter clockwise, I had to go to the fence to block him so he would turn. Then I had to watch that I didn't inadvertantly turn him back counter clockwise!!

 

That was definitely neutral, not a correction. It was a means of saying, "I want you to go that way" and not "you're doing something wrong".

 

I almost always ended up in a corner with sheep gathered in front of me and him on the other side of them looking very pleased with himself! :rolleyes: Good memories, those!

 

And using body blocking in that way didn't affect his attitude toward my movement into him in sport contexts. He knew the difference.

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