Aggressive Dog

[DTrain]

I have got to post this, this is a training issue and I need help. I have posted before in general discussion but this situation is getting worse and it is beyond my scope. My youngest dog was attacked by another dog about a month ago. Up until that time he showed no signs of fear or aggression. However, since he has been barking and lunging at other dogs, bikes, skateboards etc. I have not been able to allow him off-leash since. Last night during and off-leash play session with my other dogs my young dog took off after a person walking by the park. He was definatly showing aggression although it almost appeared he was bluffing. He did no harm and he did take my call-off command after several tries. It has been suggested that this is fear aggression. I cannot allow this to continue and it is beyond me. I am training him for herding and he is fine but I have no idea how to train him out of this mess. I have tried taking him to situations where he would see things that turn him on. I have tried sit and stay but the young guy will just not come around. Please give me your thoughts and suggestions. I have never had a dog like this before. He is going to be a good working dog but I am also trying to train him to work geese in public places and that is not going well. Thanks.

[kelpiegirl]

As I suspect you know- he shouldn't be working geese in public places, unless, and until this issue is worked out. He needs to respond to your call off the second you issue the first utterance. He also needs to be seen by a behaviourist. There are lots of things you can do to manage this. One thing is that he needs to heed your orders, over and above any of his fears. You need to keep in mind his concerns, but he has to listen to you. I have a dog who is shy around people- not aggressive. She just doesn't prefer to have other people exist, unless she really gets to know them. On the golf course when working, she ignores other people. When something worries her, she just tries to ignore it, or look to me for direction. I think if you get your dog to realize that you control his environment, he won't feel compelled to do it himself. Really work on obedience with him, and when you see him starting to get concerned, break the concentration on that however you can. Gradually get him to the point where he trusts you to handle any scary things that may happen. That, and good obedience should really help.

[DTrain]

Thanks, if I can't get him out of this he will be useless as a goose dog and I am not so sure what I would be forced to do with him. He comes from such great stock that it would be a shame to not do everything I can including seeking help to get him out of this. This dog has been difficult but to this point I have been able to work with it. I have gone back to basic training with him and I will do it again. You are correct and as you well know if he does not take an instant call-off above anything else he is not going to make it. Without anything going on around him he is fine. I have not heard this mentioned but as you suspect I also think he is making and effort to control things and I need to switch that. I will go back to basic training. Do you have any further suggestions.

[mbc1963]

Hi,

 

Not a lot of advice, but a lot of empathy. I have a very fearful, reactive dog, and it sounds as though fear aggression is indeed what you are experiencing.

 

With my dog, I had to do a lot of very slow, careful exposure to fearful stimuli. It took a really long time, and he's still not "normal" by any means, though he can pass a lot of the time. I did have a great trainer and he helped me a lot. Patricia McConnell's book ("Feisty Fido" and "Cautious Canine") have a lot of protocols about this particular issue.

 

Having said all that, though, all the work I did was for a pet dog, whose only "job" was to get better and less fearful in the world. If I had been trying to turn my dog into a working dog, I'm not sure I would have been successful - every new situation required so much time and patience.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

[juliepoudrier]

Having said all that, though, all the work I did was for a pet dog, whose only "job" was to get better and less fearful in the world. If I had been trying to turn my dog into a working dog, I'm not sure I would have been successful - every new situation required so much time and patience.

Interesting point. I would think that a dog who is focused on the work should/would ignore other stimuli (good or bad). This is like the classic thunderphobic/noise sensitive dog who will seemingly ignore the thunder, gun shots, whatever as long as s/he is working but who in other situations would be very reactive to those stimuli. I guess what I'm asking (DTrain that is) is when you are doing goose work, shouldn't the dog be completely focused on the job at hand and not on anything else that's going on around it? If that's the case, then I think I'd work on the dog's focus while working. You can set up situations at home (and in other training venues) where the negative stimulus is present and insist that your dog continue to obey commands and do his job. Of course at the same time you would need to do all the desensitization stuff that Mary did with her dog (outside of work). Can you give more detail about how your attempts to train him to work in public places aren't going well? Are you just doing basic stuff (recalls and the like) or are you actually working him on geese and it's not going well?

 

J.

[DTrain]

Julie, this is confusing to me because I have never seen this before. He is not working geese yet but he is training on stock and geese. I have planned to train him this year to have him trained and ready for next season. While he is training / working he seems to focus well. I have not had much trouble with that. While he is training with stock he is in a private setting so there is not much to distract him. I have not had a situation when training on stock that he has been distracted by anything. He is not overly aggressive with stock and he does not show signs of fear or lack of confidence. He is learning and he takes his commands quite well. It does not take much pressure to correct him. It is the same with working geese if there is nothing going on around him. However, the moment he sees another dog, skateboarder etc. he becomes a different dog as I have explained and this is what is bothering me and has me stumped. I have no experience with this sort of behavior. Your thunder phobia example is excellent, he is not afraid of thunder, but he is fine while he is working. In a public setting with lots going on around him he is a disaster. It takes a huge amount of pressure to get him back on focus again. If I cannot overcome this there is no way I will allow him to work in public. I could never trust he would take a command and stick to it. I am going to continue his training but go back on basic training. This afternoon I am going to try him in a public park on leash to get a better handle on exactly what he is attempting to do if I can and try to find a correction he will take. My other dogs work in any situation without any distraction and they take their commands perfectly. In fact the young dogs father is my best dog and he has never once shown signs of any difficult behavior. During his training I did not encounter anything of this sort and have never had a single negative situation with him beyond expectations.

[DTrain]

I should also have mentioned that I want to get this young dog into agility and also some public service work. I take my dogs to seniors homes, hospitals etc. but at the moment I cannot trust the young dog and in a social work setting he needs to be perfect. I also should have mentioned that when he is not training or working but in a play setting he can be very difficult to manage. ALSO, I just did a search and made a couple of calls. It appears that there is not a trainer reasonably close to me can can help with this problem. Any specific training advise I can do on my own would be very helpful. I train herding so this is new to me. Thanks.

[Liz P]

I have a now 19 month old male who was attacked by a pit bull this spring. Before that he didn't like PBs but would tolerate them because as a tiny pup he had been attacked by one running loose in the hay field. (Animal Control around here doesn't do much about dog attacks.) After the second attack it was clear he was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. I started him on Prozac, which made a HUGE difference, and made a plan with a behaviorist to slowly reintroduce him to the world. The most important thing I have to keep in mind about him now is that he blows up if stressed too much. Previously he was a do or die, reliable dog. Right now he can take pressure for a day or two then needs several days of low pressure work to recover.

 

He has been isolated to the farm for the last few months. All he sees are people who come for lesson, their BCs and a handfull of other dogs. He is starting to return to normal but there is a huge change in the way he works. He gets really stressed when asked to lift sheep being held by a dog. Both attacks involved a dog running at him from a distance and immediately grabbing him by the throat. We have figured out that if he sees a dog in the distance that is getting closer he gets particularly stressed. Right now I am letting him come along at his own pace. I already see a big change in him, the work (and drugs ) are helping hin heal. He may take years to get over the attack, but I am going to give him that time to recover. I am hopeful that some day he will be able to lift sheep off other dogs and therefore be able to trial, but he may end up just being a farm dog.

 

You will have to make the decision about whether or not you are willing to wait years for your dog to heal emotionally. If you do then you need to take steps to help him recover, if you don't you need to find a new home willing to do that. There are consultations with behaviorists by e-mail/fax available if you are interested in that information.

[mbc1963]

The most important thing I have to keep in mind about him now is that he blows up if stressed too much...

We have figured out that if he sees a dog in the distance that is getting closer he gets particularly stressed...

 

Yes, I would strongly second the "threshold" theory of stressors. It's absolutely true with my fearful dog. A single large dog bounding at us in the woods might be OK. Two small dogs bounding at us might be OK. But put them all in a group, and it's too much stress for my dog: he's over his threshold. Ditto with meeting a large dog while someone tries to pat him, or having two small children charge at him simultaneously. I've become pretty good at reading situations and body language, to know if Buddy is approaching his threshold. On a good day, I can separate him out and he relaxes right away. On a bad day, he reacts the old way: snarling and trying to drive other dogs off, or trying to flee from approaching humans.

 

I'm not at all sure there will come a time when I don't have to monitor Buddy's reactions at all. But they are getting less severe and more predictable with time. Bikes used to cause a breakdown. Tonight, a fast biker silently rode up behind me on a wooded trail and passed Buddy; the dog was utterly unflumoxed. That always surprises me - he seems to have learned completely to cope with them. Three years later.

 

If you are going to try to reintroduce the dog to the "big world," I would do it in tiny bites. Lots of positives (treats, etc.) while he's calm. Remove to a safe haven when he starts to get stressed and react. As the other poster said, a bike going by at 50 yards might be fine. Treat for calm. Then slowly make it 40 yards, 30 yards, etc..

 

Mary

[bexie]

Get a copy of "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. It can really help. Then you want to back up with what you are doing so you set him up for success. Pushing him too fast and putting him into too many situations you know he can't handle set him up for failure and can worsen his problems. You also really don't need him actually doing something to another person or dog and ending up getting both of you in trouble with the law.

 

If you aren't doing NILIF (nothing in life is free), starting it might help. He needs to learn that you are able to protect him and let him know when he has something to worry about. How you react to situations teaches him a lot about how to react. If you worry that he will react poorly, you may be sending out subtle signals that worsen his reaction.

 

Molly had really bad fear aggression after a horrible experience in an obedience class. I'd managed to lighten it a little on my own, but the book really helped. Your dog needs positive experiences to help lessen the impact of the negative one he has had. He needs you to show him how he is supposed to react in a way that respects his concerns but gives him acceptable behavior. "Control Unleashed" can really help you figure out how to set up those situations and teach him a new reaction pattern (look at scary dog or person then refocus to you for treat).

 

After just a short time working on a few of the methods in the book, Molly is now comfortable when other dogs are around. She is able to focus on service work despite the presence of many other dogs and she isn't showing the stress signs she used to.

 

A bite is probably worse than what Molly went through because she didn't have direct negative interaction with another dog. But it is certainly worth a try!

[DTrain]

We worked with our dog yesterday in a public setting. We took him to a Canada Day celebration. Lots of people, bikes, roller blades and dogs. We walked him through a very busy park. It started out badly. The dog became very excited about all of the activity around him. We had him sit, not easy, when something that seems to spark him was happening. He did try to get at a couple of other dogs and chase a roller blader. His sit went fairly well and he lost interest in bikes. He was fine with people approaching him. We did notice however for the first time that he payed no attention to us in favor of everything else. It would be normal for my dogs to look at us often when given a command and this little guy does to except in this situation. So, we are going to go back to basic training with him. Obviously something did not go right. I am only familiar with herding training and the dog is fine in that situation . How did you get your dog to focus on you during training. Thanks.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi

It sounds like he is over stimulated with all the goings on. I would bring him to places like this every single day. Eat lunch, read a book, do whatever you can to let it all become background noise. Don't invite people up to him at this point. Just get him used to his surroundings- when he is like he is at home there, then you can start upping the ante.

[mbc1963]

I would guess too much stimulation, too. I would take everything in small chunks, instead of all at once. Or... if you're going to go to a busy park like that, then stay only a very tiny, short time and then give the dog a break.

 

When I first had my dog, if we were in a frightening situation, he would be so stressed out, focusing on everything around him, that he couldn't pay attention to me. I learned very quickly that pushing him too far, too fast was only counterproductive. My trainer and the people in here gave me the information that putting a dog in a situation where he's going to react (growling, lunging, chasing, etc.) and then letting him react reinforces that unwanted behavior in the dog. Keeping the behavior from happening in the first place seems to let some of the bad connections in the dog's brain die down.

 

I do know, for sure, that when my dog relapses and has a reactive incident, he's "charged up" for a days afterwards, and much more likely to react again. One step forward, two steps back, and all that.

 

Mary

[bexie]

We worked with our dog yesterday in a public setting. We took him to a Canada Day celebration. Lots of people, bikes, roller blades and dogs. We walked him through a very busy park. It started out badly. The dog became very excited about all of the activity around him. We had him sit, not easy, when something that seems to spark him was happening. He did try to get at a couple of other dogs and chase a roller blader. His sit went fairly well and he lost interest in bikes. He was fine with people approaching him. We did notice however for the first time that he payed no attention to us in favor of everything else. It would be normal for my dogs to look at us often when given a command and this little guy does to except in this situation. So, we are going to go back to basic training with him. Obviously something did not go right. I am only familiar with herding training and the dog is fine in that situation . How did you get your dog to focus on you during training. Thanks.

 

Focus is part of the training. Molly didn't have it initially working in public but she has it now. I had to start her slow in calm environments and work up to the more hectic stuff. I also had to adjust what I expected of her and keep sessions short initially. Treating for focus also helps _a lot_.

 

I can't see you or your dog, but my gut reaction says you are pushing him too hard to fast. You need to stop situations while things are going well. He needs good experiences, not to break down repeatedly from the stress.

 

Get that book (or at least borrow it and read it) and start respecting his signals! He's telling you he isn't ready for the situations you're putting him in.

[Shetlander]

I'm not a working person so maybe I shouldn't respond but I have dealt with severe shyness and fear in a couple of dogs. It is a fine line to walk at what is behavioral and what is the fear. Often, there is a mix of the two. I totally agree with those who are cautioning not to push too far, too fast with a fearful dog. If the dog is reacting out of strong emotion, he isn't going to be in much of a state for learning and may in fact be practicing exactly the kind of responses you don't want and cementing his fear and aggressive behaviors.

 

I feel that the dog needs to set the pace in overcoming fears and the only real option we have is patience and gentle, firm persistence. It is very often counter-productive to think in terms of where the dog "should" be in his progress. So I also agree with those who have said that you need to look at whether you will have the time to rehabilitate this dog for work. Sometimes I think back to what I asked my phobic dog to do and am amazed at his own brand of courage in taking on such a big, scary world. But that was without a job to do.

 

Again, I'm not a working person and I don't know your dog so I don't know how much of his issues are rooted in fear. But I would worry that you are going too fast -- being out during such a busy day as you describe, for instance. I would encourage you to break things down into smaller, less overwhelming pieces, again with progression dictated by your dog's time line. That way he can experience and build on lots of success.

 

I love the book Click to Calm but know that many, many people rave about Control Unleashed. There are a few other books that would be helpful as well. I think you will find that the common theme is emphasis on slow, small steps.

[DTrain]

I have decided to find a school and enroll the dog and get help from another trainer. It may well be the case that I am bringing this dog along in this situation with too much force. I am not familar with this sort of training and perhaps I should be smart enough not to attempt it. I have very high expectations for this dog. He comes from a very good line of herding dogs and his herding training is fine. He may well turn out to be a great herding dog but we are asking him to do far more. It is intended that his future will include far more. Herding training is a different thing and perhaps he needs to be trained separately for all of the things we need him to do. In many ways I feel sorry for him. I can give him a herding life and goose dog work but I cannot train him for other things. I will get some books so I can understand but I think I need to get help with this one.

[urge to herd]

DTrain, I wish you every bit of luck I can send. I've got no experience at all training dogs for any kind of work, but I do have experience with fearful dogs. I can tell you that when I forced either Sam or Shonie past their limits, I got backlash that I then had to go back and fix.

 

I've had to learn to read my dogs' body language and demeanor very, very closely. I learned to my horror that if I put too much pressure on Shonie she'd get worse, and that sounds a lot like what happened with your dog at the park.

 

As other people have mentioned, exposure to scary things in tiny, tiny bits is really the only way to work these dogs through their fears. Being at the park for your guy was like being assaulted. The more forceful you got, the more anxious he got and the worse he behaved.

 

Do try the Control Unleashed, work on setting up very consistent behaviors for your guy, when you see signs of stress (tensing up, a hard stare, or alternatively turning away, yawning, etc) get him out of whatever situation he's in. He's consistently telling you he can't handle all the commotion, and his trust in you is lessening because you keep throwing him into the deep end of the pool, so to speak.

 

Your situation sounds very difficult, and I applaud you for wanting to do the best thing for this dog and looking for different tools to help him. I believe that you will become a a more verstaile trainer by working through this with your boy, with more options and greater abilities to deal with a much wider range of behaviors.

 

Best of luck,

 

Ruth n the BC3

[DTrain]

Before I do any more with this dog I am going to seek help and I am going to do my research. I will continue his herding training but I am not going to attempt to work him through this problem with lack of knowledge on my part. This is a great dog from great stock. My expectations may be high but I am also aware that I could destroy this creature. I have had great input on this, thanks everyone. I am taking your best advice. I have too much emotion. I find when the dog is tense, so am I. I want this dog to do many things but if nothing else I want him to be a good herding dog and love it. I want him to look to me as his safe haven. I still don't know what to do but I am going to find out.

[3dogslater]

How much training and socializing to the outside world has this dog had? When he was 8-16 weeks old was he exposed to people of all ages and cultures, wheelchairs, different environments, loud noises, etc? How much time did he spend away from your other dogs and off your property?

 

In my experience, a dog who is attacked by another dog rarely generalizes that single attack into a fear aggressive response to people and skateboards and other unrelated stimuli.

 

Just because he came from "good" parents doesn't mean that he will automatically end up with the same temperament. From your description he sounds fearful and undersocialized and that is where you need to focus your efforts. Click to Calm and Control Unleashed are both good books if you can commit to working through the steps. You'll need to manage his interactions so that he doesn't have the chance to rehearse the behaviour. Every time that he reacts and the thing he is reacting to leaves, he is being rewarded for the behaviour so that it is more likely to happen.

 

Flooding is a controversial technique that backfires far more often than it is successful. One example would be to take your dog to the middle of a skateboard park so that he was surrounded by what he found fearful. A tiny minority of dogs will realize that nothing is happening and that skateboards aren't that scary. Most dogs will end up traumatized and far more reactive than they were before.

 

For most dogs a slow program of desensitization and counterconditioning is much more effective in getting past behavioural problems.

 

It could take months and months to train through his issues and he may never be as reliable as you need him to be for goose control work, and he may not have the personality to be a good therapy dog either.

[DTrain]

Something here? For the first six months of his life we lived in the middle of nowhere. He had little chance to socialize with the outside world. He had my wife and myself and our other dogs. When he did have the chance he seemed to be fine although he was very difficult to train. For the past six months we have been living in an urban setting with lots of activity going on around us. He has had almost constant contact with the outside world and lots of attention. He has also started his herding training and is doing fine. He seems to be fine with people, he likes people, he likes to play but add another dog or a skateboard and he is off. Lat night we had him out for a play session with three children and four adults. I watched him very carefully. He was good with the kids although he did not play much with them in favor of playing tug with his father. One little girl wanted to take pictures of him, he is afraid of cameras. He was nervous at first but she took about twenty shots of him and he seemed to do fine. He did not show any signs of stress in any fashion. Nothing came into his space that he reacted fearfully to. It started to rain after about an hour so we all went inside. He spent the rest of the evening indoors very quietly.

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds good- just take it slow and easy- he will soon realize that there is nothing to worry about. Just don't invite people/dogs to initiate exchanges with him.

I would love to see a pic of this dog

[DTrain]

Let me see if I can do this. This is a picture of him from last night.

[DTrain]

This is a picture of his father. He is a fabulous herding dog.

[DTrain]

This is a picture of his brother from a previous litter.

[kelpiegirl]

He's a handsome one Look at that TAIL!

 

Let me see if I can do this. This is a picture of him from last night.