Training Method

[DTrain]

I just read a post in Health and Genetics where a lady named Laura mentioned that a trainer threw a leash at her dog to get the dog to work off stock. I have read about this throwing things training method before and since moving from the west it has even been recommended to me as being very effective and a common training method, what is wrong with me, you cal yourself a trainer. I was told that I am being too soft on my dogs. One trainer even suggested that I would get better results if I carried something with me during a training session to hit the dog with and use it often. I did not bother asking him what he carries. I recently attended a training session as an observer where a trainer in front of a large group of people hit a dog with her stick and then threw the stick at the dog and suggested to the group that this was common practice and a very good way to get your dogs attention. I walked out of the session. I have many of the same problems other trainers do and getting dogs to work off stock can be a challenge but I have never even thought of throwing something at the dog. I have used methods such as a feed bag on the end of a stick but I have never before heard of or seen throwing things at dogs as a common and recommended training method. I have worked with many good trainers and handlers in the west for many years and have never once encountered this. I do not plan to use this method but it is curious. Why am I seeing this now, is this a common method, what do you think of it, does it actually help or is this misguided thinking. Are there top trainers in the east who suggest this. Thanks.

[1sheepdoggal]

Dont know where the practice originated from, though I too have seen it used on occasion, and implemented the use of throwing what ever was handy at a dog, not as a staple training practice, but as a quick tool to get a dogs attention. I dont think Im alone in this as far as training stockdogs goes, though I dont think its a method that is widly used for other venues of training. I have seen some, carry it to far, and injure a dog, and that is where I draw the line. However, to simply get a dogs attention, it can be a useful way of doing things. Are there other ways? Im sure there are. Ive just seen that this kind of thing works, and is really of no consequence to the dog. They get the message, get back, and keep on working. Now I will add, that It would definitly depend on the type of dog your working with. I have had a few I wouldnt try this with, but Ive also had some pretty keen, hard dogs that it worked well on and didnt phase them, just got the point accross, and instead of having to stop working and lay the dog down and then resume working, it just allows them to keep working. Usually throwing some thing is also accompanied by a harsh word, or growl, again, of no real consequence to the dog, just gets a point accross and keep going. There is a top trainer, who talks about protecting the ground in front of them, and instead of utilizing the object to throw "AT" the dog, it could be used to throw directly in front of the dog. I havent used this method yet, but understand it, and it sounds as if it would work pretty good.

Back in the day of my off lead OB training, we used what is called a throw chain to teach a recall. Again, it wasnt utilized for every dog, but as a tool to hit a dog running away in the butt, (usually with a choke chain) to stop them and get thier attention. It worked well there too, as the dog was running away, and didnt know where the correction came from, just that you the handler were out of reach, gave a command they chose to ignore and they still got corrected, so it tended to change their POV about the command and whether they took it. Timing is of the utmost importance if this method is used , as in most any other corrections. If its not given at the correct time, and you get the right response, then yea, your just throwing stuff at the dog, and its not doing any good except to make the dog fearful of anything you have in your hand.

As far as walking up and hitting a dog with some thing. Thats just stupid. And I wouldnt do it nor reccomend it. Theres a big difference between the two, as well as a big difference in how the dog percieves the difference between the two corrections.

If you choose not to use a method, such as chucking some thing at your dogs, thats your choice to make. But I dont see in stock dog training where it is very detrimentle to particular dogs in certin situations. I too have been to a few top trainers, and have seen them utilize this method, and really see nothing wrong with it, if you understand how/when to do it properly, why its being done, and can see that it has a positive effect. There are as many ways to train a dog dog, as there are trainers out there. I would suggest utilizing what makes you feel comfortable, and forget the rest. But I dont think that chucking some thing at a dog while its on stock, is an isolated incident. I think Ive seen it enough to know that it is a practice that is used quite often. Whether its used properly or not is a whole other question.

[Laurae]

I hate it, especially since I had such a bad outcome when someone threw something at my dog. But it's pretty common, especially for very young dogs. The idea isn't really to hit the dog—that was an accident with Sophie. Of course, such accidents do happen. But generally the idea is to throw a stick or whatever in the general direction of the dog, so he sees it in his peripheral vision and moves out to avoid it. It's common, because it's often effective. Many of the top trainers I've worked with do it (including one of the people you mentioned that you've trained with in previous posts). I think Darci is correct in that a lot depends on correct implementation (i.e., timing, aim), but regardless it's not something I choose to do with my dogs because of the potential for injury.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Chucking Stuff At Your Dog is just one way of getting the dog's attention. There's not supposed to be malicious intent. One thing to remember in sheepdog training is that if your dog isn't listening, the consequences that result can be more than just hurt feelings.

 

One time I was at my old trainer's, and my young dog was bringing the entire flock, about 150 ewes, up the fencline. My trainer was working him, and I was sitting along the fence, under a shade tree, with my infant son in a stroller.

 

My trainer asked the dog to go left to put the sheep into the gate, but for some reason, my dog got a notion, flanked very tight the other direction, ignored several "down" commands, and proceeded to ram the flock up the fenceline. They'd been working sheep through chutes a lot and possibly he thought they were doing that.

 

The only reason my son didn't get trampled was that my trainer had his other dog out there and that dog was able to come up into the heads of the flock and basically run them back over my dog.

 

My trainer was breathless (I thought he was gonna have a coronary on the spot) and apologetic and said over and over, "We're gonna work on that stop!" I'm sure my dog had a thing or two thrown at him subsequently but you know, I was all for the idea after watching my son's short life flash before my eyes. The whole verbal and nonphysical thing just wasn't cutting it for him.

 

Now, there's a school of thought that if you ever need to get physical with a dog, maybe that dog shouldn't be working. But I've found there's a good side of the personality that gets that bit in the teeth and wants to go no matter what. The highly impressionable dogs are nice to work, of course, but the gene pool needs a balance.

 

The stuff you chuck doesn't have to be harmful - the point is to startle the dog and make it go, "OH! What?" I've seen trainers use leashes, a water bottle they were drinking out of, hats - even a traffic cone that was out there to mark courses. All very deadly weapons and terribly scary! Actually, I was laughing so hard at the traffic cone that I almost missed the point!

 

One thing I've learned in dog training, "Never say never." Well, up to a point, obviously.

[DTrain]

Interresting points, thanks. I am not sure I could use it with my current flock of dogs, they seem to work quite well. I am not sure I could trust my aim either. However, I can think of several situations lately with my youngest dog who has just started training where this might be helpful. I will try to come up with an object that will not hurt the dog and give it a shot. My best dog has no faults at least as far as I am concerned and for the work we do but once in a while he will get in for a grip or work off balance. I have never been able to find a solution for it perhaps I will try this as he has never seen it before and may well respond. He was trained before I got him so I don't know for sure but I will try it. He is very submissive when I get on his case but I have often thought when he is working some distance from me that he takes advatage. I use a correction commend and lie down. I like to step into him to apply pressure but at a distance I cannot do this. Perhaps if I made the point that I can still get to him from a distance he will stop this. Food for thought, thanks.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Generally, to fix things that are happening at a distance, you need to bring your dog in anyway. "Not listening" almost always means the dog doesn't understand what you are asking, or is having a confidence problem.

 

For instance, Bet has a problem with the "stop" command. It's related to the fact that for whatever reason, she doesn't read pressure well and will get sucked in under the "flight zone" of the stock. But it just looks like she's blowing off that stop.

 

If I bring her in and get her comfortable working at a proper distance, get her feeling that happy place, then I can start throwing in that stop anytime. And she'll stop because she's thinking and relaxed, not in "HOLY COW! PRESSURE!" mode. Then I can send her pretty much any distance and stop her and even use the "Time" command to keep her from getting sucked into the bubble again.

 

None of this requires throwing things. Before you get to chuckin' stuff, make sure your dog not only knows what you want, but knows how to correct himself at the time you are asking him to come up with another answer. If you wait too long, your dog might be in a situation he doesn't know how to undo (like Bet and getting sucked into the bubble). So you have to ask your dog to change at the point when it's easiest to fix it. Sometimes that means you have to back up a step, work in closer, so your dog can learn to do that.

 

I hope that made sense. I really stink at verbalizing this because I'm only just feeling my way through it myself.

[Shoofly]

Now Becca, are you making fun of my traffic cone method of sheepdog training?!

 

It's not about what you're tossing, it's about what you aim it at. I don't toss things at dogs, i toss things at the ground, at the spot i want the dog to avoid. It might be a stick, a piece of hose, a bottle with rocks in it, a bucket, a cone, whatever works. I don't really use it very often but it can be an effective method. I'm leery of things with pointy ends like sticks though, too easy to screw up and hurt someone.

[DTrain]

I mentioned my best dog. I do something with him that I was told to do by another trainer. I frequently practice. The dog has a habit of working quickly with stock and off balance occasionally. I will take three sheep and work the dog in close to me. This way I am able to stay on top of him. He will take my commands and he will take my correction if I am close. I pick several things to work on including driving to try to force his pace. I will frequently practice balance with him and try to concentrate on things that are a problem. This works very well and we always manage to develop a pace together that is comfortable. However, unless I keep the pressure on and maintain control he will go back to his old problems. He may be fine for days and then suddenly he is off again. Some days when I take him to stock he is fine and other days he is not. He always likes to start a session at rocket speed. When he is out of control I will stop a session split off three sheep and work in close until he is settled. I give him a look back and we go again and he is generally fine. Working in close is very helpful but I don't like repeating problems so I have been looking for another way of getting his attention and correcting him. Having said that he is generally perfect for the kind of work he does most. He is my top goose dog and I have thought of just leaving this situation with stock alone but I don't really want to. He is a stock dog, bred and trained for stock and I would like him for his sake and mine to be a stock dog. I am certain he can do both jobs. I believe it takes a stock dog to work geese but I am not certain if goose work is causing a problem so I always fall back to working stock with him whenever I can. Have I brought up another problem outside of throwing objects or would this have any value in the situation I have tried to explain. Thanks.

[Shoofly]

How old is this dog?

[DTrain]

How old is this dog?

He is close to 5. Why do you ask.

[Shoofly]

A dog with a little age on him is more set in his ways, a younger one easier to change. I'm having some trouble picturing what you're describing and i think you've mentioned more than one dog so i might be confusing things, but it sounds like you can handle him up close but when he gets further from you he gets racy and harder to control. My next question is - do you think he's blowing you off and not working well, or is he just working faster than you'd really like but he's still doing okay with the stock?

 

Some dogs just need to work faster than others and if you change this, you might cause other problems. You may need to change how you handle him (use a stop-go method instead of trying to get a walking pace). But i'm just guessing since i can't see what's happening and i'm not sure i'm picturing what you describe correctly.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You might consider that it's a fact that for most Border Collies (not sure about other breeds), goose work often does spoil their sense of pressure and pace. Not spoil like, forever, but as you say they just get into the habit of working that way. Just like when I take my dogs from my sheep to very light sheep I have be ready to remind them to "Whoa!" It's just habit, not a real failing on the part of a dog.

 

If you can't get a handle on him with a quick verbal reminder, you should definitely keep working him in situations where he's not listening well, until you find a way to communicate with him better. Again, neither a failing of yours or his, it's just a reality of buying a new dog that often it can take a while to get in sync.

 

Hey, I mentioned no names, Robin! I was actually thinking about that the other day before this subject even came up here - we were working lambs near the woods and I was breaking them from making a dash in there. Ted wanted to rush in tight between the woods and the lambs but that did nothing for us - I didn't want the lambs to be harrassed at that point, I wanted them thinking hard about the folly of their ways. The only thing I could find was a chunk of some kind of barky-wood like object about the size of a football. I sent Ted and lobbed it so it would land where he wanted to come in and used the old "Time!" reminder.

 

It worked like a charm. You know Ted, he only needs the one reminder. I only wished I had had a cone instead because I was a bit nervous chucking that chunk of wood that far.

 

One other thing about Chucking Things At Your Dog. You can lob the object, while simultaneously getting back into a position that relieves pressure and gives the dog complete freedom to correct himself (and also you can take some ground that is incorrect, yourself). If you are over chasing your dog around, depending on how the sheep act, it will be difficult for the dog to right himself.

[DTrain]

Thanks, you guys make some great points and you have great insight. Robin, the dog I refer to is my best dog and now that you have brought it up this really is a situation where he is doing his job, just much faster than I would like him to. He is a big strong dog and any attempts to slow him down other than working close have failed. I do get the feeling sometimes that he is going to do it his way or no way and in that sense he is blowing me off. Sorry about the picture, it is just a situation where he wants things to move along at high speed. Whether he is driving or bringing the stock or doing an outrun he just wants to do it fast. Becca, I have often thought that since he has no chance of fetching he may think for himself and has decided perhaps getting to the geese fater is better. In goose work there is few opportunities I can work in close with him. When we have worked Elk I very much wanted to stay outside of 60 or 70 years. In this case he would be mostly working on his own and I am reluctant to give him a command that would distract him. Good point, finding a way to communicate with him. I have not found the perfect way. Bringing him back to stock and working close with him is helping me as much as him. When I first got him we had numerous situations where I would be forced to ask for a lie-down just so I could think. This gives me an idea. I did buy him so I have never had a chance to develop a training relationship with him. I understand he worked on a ranch every day. We were more or less thrown together and off to work. He was forced into a situation with a new handler and a new type of work. Perhaps I should go back to do some very basic training with him such as heel etc. This might help develop our relationship futher. What if I added a new command to his work he may have never seen before, would this be helpful. Thanks

I just thought of something. This is the same dog with whom I have not been able to discover his whistle commands. Now I am wondering if this would make a difference.

[Bo Peep]

I have seen and used "tools" to make a dog get out or change direction. Older trainers and newer ones used old milk jugs with rocks. I bet they were upset when they saw the rattle paddles come out for sell and wish they had thought about selling that first. I don't remember who it was who told me to use a horse lunge whip- don't get upset before I explain. It was just an extension of my arm. I would lay the long whip down in front of the dog giving the other direction, example away, and the dog seeing the line coming would turn around and go the other way- no snap, crackle or pop. A simple lay it on the ground. It left the dog way off the sheep without bringing the dog in too close and still let you change and teach directions without making the dog too tight. These are just tools that people use. I don't know of anyone that would intentionally throw something at a dog. Interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

[anngreenthumb]

I think you need to keep in mind temperment and motive.....of YOU, not the dog. I have seen it used successfully, when not in total anger, but as a TRAINING method to drive the dog off the sheep. But I quit a trainer who escalated from tossing stuff at my dog, to walking up to him and hitting him with a metal bucket that had a large rock in it. We were in a small pen and my boy yelped when he got whacked. It was done in anger, not training.

[DTrain]

I think you need to keep in mind temperment and motive.....of YOU, not the dog. I have seen it used successfully, when not in total anger, but as a TRAINING method to drive the dog off the sheep. But I quit a trainer who escalated from tossing stuff at my dog, to walking up to him and hitting him with a metal bucket that had a large rock in it. We were in a small pen and my boy yelped when he got whacked. It was done in anger, not training.

 

I have seen this anger act as I have explained and that is one of the things that concerned me. Is this method used to vent the anger of the trainer or does it have some value in trainer. It appears it does have some value in training especailly in the path of the dog. Some of posters have used this method in a positive way. I can now picture it being used in a positive way. I am trying to figure out how I can use it in my situation, or at least experiment with it. As a rant, there is no place in canine training for anger. I see it in my work and I find it repulsive. I have seen people inflict pain on dogs in one fashion or another and it has nothing to do with training. I have heard people go on about stupid stuff like if you give the dog a good kick that will teach him to do what he is told. I find it hard to believe that there are trainers out there that call themselves professionals who cannot manage a training session without resorting to hitting. I believe in pack leaders stuff and being the dominant dog in the pack but I am a soft trainer and I get the results I need and want. I am always looking for projective training methods in others but hitting is out of the question. You were very right as far as you could and thanks for doing so.

[borderfreak]

Here in Germany it's comman to use a "throw-chain" (at any kind of dog training) but it's usually thrown at the buttom in front of the dog and not at the dog (only in dangerous situations you need his attention RIGHT NOW). In classic German herding style shepherds having sticks with a shovel at the lower end wich will be used to throw some dirt at the dog to keep him off livestock. These are methods I would use if needed. It also depends at the dog. Some dogs just needs an angy spoken command, an other dogs doesn't care about that. Wich I would never use is a method I've seen is using a lash at my dog... that's going too far for my taste. And I would also never use my crook against my dog since a dog who's afraid of the crook isn't very useful at livestock.

[Pipedream Farm]

You have to do what is appropriate for you and the individual dog and the situation. I think as Becca said earlier "never say never" (up to a point). I can definitely say there are certain situations where anger is appropriate (again, up to a point). In general I'm a pretty quiet trainer, but I can clearly remember a day training one of my dogs and being downright livid. My intent was to whack the stick hard on the ground in front of her as I gave a lie down. Yep, you guessed it, my aim was bad and she got whacked on the nose. That was about 7 years ago and I still feel a bit guilty about it. On the other hand, other than my bad aim. I don't feel I was inappropriate. Let's back up a minute to what caused the situation. My dog was bringing a flock of 60+ sheep through a paddock to a gate where I was standing to sort sheep. This dog was at a level of training where she knew perfectly well what "lie down" meant. Not only did she not lie down, as about half the flock was through the gate, she cut out in front of them causing the lead sheep to spin back around into the rest of the group with me in the middle of all this getting knocked down and trampled. This is not only a very dangerous situation for myself (I know of someone else in a similar situation that broke her leg), but also to the sheep to be pushed and turned in a gate opening like this. My fiirst reaction was to jump up and go at her and yell lie down and smack the stick. Like I said, my aim was bad. I felt bad at the time but I wasn't about to apologize for it right then and there. We proceeded into lie down drills and then reset up the situation and then i put her up. Later on, I got her out and loved on her, but no way in Hades was I going to do it at the moment it happened. I can honestly say, that particular dog never did that again. I think she would have done it again had it not been for that one correction. She wasn't crushed for life with this correction in this situation. On the other hand, if this was how I trained her all the time for any minor fault she certainly would have been ruined. She was able to handle this correction because it was right for the incident. If she didn't really know what lie down meant, it would have been a whole different thing. Then it would have been shame on me for asking too big a job of her. Please understand, I'm not advocating hitting your dog. I could have been just as effective with hitting the ground in front of her --which was my actual intent. The real trick if to be able to let the anger go and resume working productively --also getting angry in only emergency situations like what I tried to describe. Hope this makes sense.

Renee

[kelpiegirl]

Rene

I had something similar happen not too long ago. Lucy got a wild hair, and decided to slice between me and the sheep- what the HECK??? So, I had my stick with me, and meant to hit the ground to tell her NO WAY are you doing that. I ended up whacking her somewhere on her shoulder area. I felt bad, as I didn't mean to do that, but I haven't seen her try that again. I wouldn't do it again, but I think she "got the message" probably more clearly than if I did my usual blathering banter, which gets us no where.

[Caroline Reichard]

Hi Renee,

 

I'm writing this post in our 100 degree heat heat wave w/ my arm sweltering in a cast in which it has been for 2 months after I was knocked over by own sheep, wiggly and excited just after shearing. The accident crushed my forearm, breaking it in more places than the surgeon could count, required surgery and several days in the hospital and left me w/ a plate and 4 screws going in one side of the bone and out the other: yucch. No dog chased sheep over the top of me, but I am no longer a fan of being run over by sheep in any circumstances, so I am positive you did the right thing!

 

Caroline

[Pipedream Farm]

Caroline, I had no idea you had been hurt! I'm so sorry. I bet you'll be ready for a party when that cast comes off. It must be really miserable in this heat.

Renee

Hi Renee,

 

I'm writing this post in our 100 degree heat heat wave w/ my arm sweltering in a cast in which it has been for 2 months after I was knocked over by own sheep, wiggly and excited just after shearing. The accident crushed my forearm, breaking it in more places than the surgeon could count, required surgery and several days in the hospital and left me w/ a plate and 4 screws going in one side of the bone and out the other: yucch. No dog chased sheep over the top of me, but I am no longer a fan of being run over by sheep in any circumstances, so I am positive you did the right thing!

 

Caroline

[DTrain]

Hi Renee,

Thanks, good post. Nothing like that has ever happened to me but after reading your post I almost wish it would, I would feel very badly about it as you do but knowing my lead dog's temperment I expect he would get the point forever. I have had situations with him and it has crossed my mind that I would like to, you know. I bought this dog and he is very well trained and I know his trainer but I don't know exactly how he was trained so I am at something of a disadvantage. I almost think I need a siutation with him where I can get on his case very hard and I think a direct connection with him would be the answer. I have banged my stick on the ground at a distance and it gets his attention but I don't think it is direct enough with him. I need to make my point when he is very close to me. I still have not figured out how but when I do I am going to try it. This brings me to another question. If I throw something and in this case I am thinking of something like a ball, will the dog be able to make the connection. Will the dog know that I have done something to correct him.

[kelpiegirl]

Just an observation from my own dog/training. Much of the noise/banging of the stick, and other banter gets ignored, or just avoided by my dog. The single most effective correction I do consists of running at my dog (no matter how far, how long) and pushing her off the sheep until she looks me in the eye. If she does not look me in the eye, she is avoiding and still locked on the sheep- even if we are yards away. I don't touch her. It finally clicks for her that she simply has to listen to me.

[kajarrel]

Will the dog know that I have done something to correct him.

 

The main objective is to link the act with the correction (any correction), not the person.

 

Kim

[Shoofly]

Oh Caroline, that's terrible! Hope you're healing up and get the cast off soon.