Hi I am New and Have Questions

[aljones]

1. I hadn't considered an older dog, my boyfriend really wanted a young dog so that he could bond with it from babyhood, train it to do well with the ferrets, and train it from puppyhood to be an 'obedience masta (read: master lol)". How easy is it to find a WELL TRAINED border collie that is in its adult years?

 

Everyone else has already given great advice, and I'm so happy that you are here asking and learning and listening before making any decisions! I will admit that, until I adopted my first rescue BC, I had some of the same concerns your boyfriend has expressed.

 

However, those concerns quickly disappeared when I brought Johnson home! He was 8-10 years old at the time and had been dropped off at the local county shelter. I expected just to foster him through his heartworm treatment but found that he bonded so quickly and firmly to me that there was no way I was going to let someone else adopt him! In fact, the first time my vet met him, after he'd lived with us for just a week, she said, "You know you have to adopt that dog, right? Because no other living creature is ever going to look at you with that amount of adoration!"

 

And as an added bonus, Johnson is super easy to live with. He housebroke himself immediately (he'd been an outdoor dog for his first decade or so), heels better than any other dog I've ever had, and can be trusted in any situation we've placed him in (including enduring my toddler niece and nephew). He charms folks wherever we go because he's just a sweetheart of a dog--I wish I could take some credit for it, but he honestly came that way!

[Mojo]

Like with everything else in life, if you are determined, you can make anything work.

 

Having said that, however, in all honesty, I would have to disagree completely with the idea of having a dog in vet school, if you have any choice about it. Since you DO have the choice because you don't already have a dog, but already know that professional school is in your future, I would gently advise the following: have fun playing with friends' dogs and get your dog fix that way without the responsibility, and wait until you are safely out of school to get your own dog. You know you are going to have a cross-country move, but you don't know where you will end up practicing once you graduate, how easy will it be to find housing if you have a medium-to-large dog plus ferrets--there are a lot of things you don't know right now. And, if vet school is anything like (human) medical school, and I suspect that it is, it is going to be REALLY difficult for you, even without a dog. You are going to be more tired, and often beaten up and discouraged, than anything you've ever experienced, and the only thing you will want to do when you come home is SLEEP or study, not go out running with the dog, let alone have the energy to make up mind games for the dog.

 

I say all this because, like AK Dog Doc and others have said, I already HAD a dog for a very long time before going to medical school, and I wasn't about to give her up because of it, but making arrangements to make sure that she was well cared for in spite of my schedule, however, was extremely tough, particularly in my third and fourth years of school. The first two years were mainly classroom-based, so at least I had a predictable schedule, but once I was in hospital rotations, I would sometimes be at the hospital for 37 hours straight, meaning that I would often arrive at the hospital at 4:30 am, say on a Tuesday, and not leave until 7:30 pm on WEDNESDAY (and in a few cases, I was there for longer--weekly limits on working hours for residents don't apply to medical students!!), and I was on these types of overnight calls every two days during surgery rotations. While other people sneaked off to use the bathroom, grab a snack from the vending machine, or get a much-needed cup of coffee, since we didn't exactly have breakfast, lunch, or dinner "breaks" and were expected to be fully available at all times while on call, and surgery could go for ten hours or more, whenever I could, I was sneaking OUT of the hospital multiple times a day (racing to the parking lot and driving hell-bent for leather back to my apartment, which I leased precisely for the purpose of its being within 2 minutes' driving distance of the hospital, even though it was about three times as expensive, rent-wise, as places my classmates were renting) to let Godiva out to the bathroom, put food down for her, and then would go racing back to the hospital--and she is not even a BC, and she was also already middle-aged at the time and didn't need much in terms of exercise or mental stimulation. Needless to say, this did not work too well, but I did it, nonetheless, because I had no other choice (giving her up was NOT an option for me). Again, because at this point you do have a choice, I have to ask: why saddle yourself with it now? Yes, you might perhaps miss out on potential fun years with a new dog, but trust me, there will be plenty of dogs ready for you to adopt when you are really ready for one, AFTER you graduate, and you'll be able to save yourself a not insignificant amount of stress by being dog-free in vet school.

 

Now, having said all that, I will acknowledge that I am a little bit (okay, a lot) of a type-A personality, and as such, I am pretty driven and also somewhat nuts, and thus I actually also had a HORSE while I was in medical school, in addition to my dog, and still made the honor roll. In many ways, however, having a horse is easier than having a dog, because if the horse is boarded, he doesn't live with you, and with a full-care boarding facility, even if you never show up to the barn, someone will always be there to feed him, water him, turn him out of the pasture, bring him back in during inclement weather, and blanket him. Heck, if he's in full training, as long as you can pay for it, someone will be happy to ride and train him for you, too. What I did, however, while my classmates would spend their days off sleeping or studying (if you have been on call all night, you are *usually* allowed to go home after morning rounds the next day and then come back to work the following morning as usual, but as noted above with the 37-hour "days," you couldn't always count on that), when I did get a "day" off, I would go straight from the hospital, pick up Godiva, and then drive the 20 miles to the barn, often in the snow (went to med school in NY) in order to devote my attention to dog and horse. Sleeping, nor eating, were things I did very much of while in med school. And, if you think that's bad, residency after med school is about 15 times worse (but I think specialty training is optional for vet graduates, isn't it?)

 

I really hope that helps. I hate to be the party pooper, but looking back on what I went through to get where I am now, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Good luck in school, though!!! Medicine is definitely an exciting and rewarding career, as much of a headache it can be at times. Concentrate on your studies and get yourself into a place where you will be able to devote as much time as you want to your new dog once YOU are in control of your own schedule and can set your own hours.

 

Oh, and to answer your most recent question, I will also add that Mojo, acquired as an approximate 4-year-old stray, was the easiest dog to train I've ever personally known. He came to me knowing only how to "sit," but within weeks, learned every command up through Open obedience level, and we are currently working on Utility exercises and also training in agility. I think it is possible to track down a rescue dog that is *already* well-trained to a high level, but part of the fun of owning a super-smart dog is training it yourself and bonding in that way. Mojo is a totally "Velcro" dog and thus sticks to me like glue wherever I go, and he was like that the very first day I found him--he is more bonded to me than Godiva is, despite my having had her for almost 15 years, now. Perhaps, though, you are just referring to house manners when you said you wanted a "well-trained" adult dog? As others have said, adopting a dog that is already housebroken and crate-trained will make your life so much easier.

[Root Beer]

1. I hadn't considered an older dog, my boyfriend really wanted a young dog so that he could bond with it from babyhood, train it to do well with the ferrets, and train it from puppyhood to be an 'obedience masta (read: master lol)". How easy is it to find a WELL TRAINED border collie that is in its adult years?

 

Even if you find a moderately trained adult Border Collie, you would most likely be able to train an adult much faster than a baby puppy.

 

If I wanted a well trained dog fast, I would try to find a 3 year old Border Collie with a good temperament.

 

As for bonding, my husband said the same thing when we adopted our last dog. He wanted me to get a baby puppy so the dog would have the kind of bond with us that Speedy, the only one of our dogs that we raised from puppyhood, has.

 

In the end, I got "my way", and we did not go with a baby puppy. Dean is as bonded to us as Speedy is, if not more.

 

2. Fostering was not something I had considered, but that seems like an EXCELLENT idea. Would a rescue agency allow me to foster a dog if I do not own my property though? Remeber, I rent a one bedroom apartment. Also, are there even any border collie rescues in St. Louis? I dont think I've ever seen one here.

 

It will depend on the rescue, but it's something to look into. If one place turns you down, keep trying. You might be able to find an all breed rescue that would let you foster Border Collies only if you can't find a Border Collie rescue in your area.

 

You could go to Petfinder and put in your zip code and choose "Border Collie" and that will show you some of the shelters and rescues in your area. Not all are on Petfinder, but that would give you a place to start.

 

3. Getting busy in vet school is definitly something I worry about AND I will be moving from St. Louis, MO to Fort Collins, CO to attend vet school. There is a big move and my future and I wonder if maybe it would be better to get a dog AFTER my move.

 

It would probably be better to wait.

[Allie Oop]

My Allie was surrendered to rescue (Wyoming Border Collie Rescue) from a young student in Fort Collins. She had apparently purchased her from a breeder as a young puppy of 8 weeks. By the time Allie was 16 weeks old, the student had realized she was in over her head and the student made the trip from Fort Collins to Casper, WY to turn Allie in to the rescue. (And then I got her. ) I would wait on adding a dog, especially a puppy, to the other stresses in your life until things have stabilized a bit and you know more about the kind of time you will have to invest in your schooling. Your education should take precedence right now. Good luck!

[Ninso]

Other people have said the same thing I am about to say, but I want to add my voice to it anyway. You probably won't find a well-trained dog in rescue, but a dog is never too old to start learning! If you get a puppy, your "obedience masta" will be years off in the future. It will probably be very well trained up until about six months old, at which time it will enter adolescence and promptly forget everything it had learned up to that point! I have also heard that BCs tend to mature more slowly that other breeds, so your dog will be 2-3 years old before its training is really solid.

 

On the other hand, I adopted my BC about four months ago at 2 years old (with no training whatsoever, he didn't even respond to his name). He is smart and incredibly easy to train and has the maturity to concentrate for longer periods of time. In addition, he is velcro dog, follows me around wherever I go and always wants to be with me. The bond I have with him in just four months is just as strong as the bond I had with my last dog, who was raised from a puppy, plus I didn't have the frustration that comes with a puppy destroying things and going through the adolescent period. He does an excellent job in our obedience classes, has a solid recall, knows several "tricks" in addition to his basic obedience commands, and all of this was achieved in 4 months while working a full-time job.

 

Other things to consider, if you have limited time it will be difficult to give a puppy the attention it requires. Housetraining will be difficult if you are gone from home for extended periods of time. Also, I don't do agility or flyball (yet) but with a puppy, you wouldn't be able to start right away, since you would have to wait at least a year for the dog's bones to mature before you could start doing any jumping with the dog.

 

Just some food for thought. You sound dedicated to your animals, so I'm sure whatever your decision you will make it work (I am in my early 20's too--some of us are dedicated and responsible pet owners , so don't let your age influence your decision, only your circumstances and a realistic evaluation of what you can handle )

[WeaselLover]

Wow you guys are great! Thank you so much for your thought out responses! I've given it a good thinking over and I think it would be best to get a dog AFTER vet school. As much as it kills me (thats over 6 YEARS away in the future) I would rather wait until I am ready to care for a dog. I would never want to get a dog and then have to rehome it because of scheduleing conflicts. In the mean time I think foster dogs NOW would be a good way for me to get my dog fix AND get to know the BC breed BEFORE I adopt. And when I finally do adopt I will be adopting an ADULT dog from a rescue. Thank you thank you thank you thank you! You guys have helped me to make a responsible decision, what more could I ask for!

 

-Giuli

[Kenbo]

Sounds like a great idea to wait, Good Luck, you have a life ahead of you. Ken

[Liz P]

Out of curiosity, are your parents in CO? I was told not to bother applying to CO because they take so few out of state students.

[FoxgloveBC]

good luck going into vet school.. i know A&M only takes a handful from anywhere each year..some people wait 8 years to get in!!! thats why I decided I wasnt going to try for that since it was almost impossible to get in there!

[WeaselLover]

No, no relatives in CO. I will be moving there 2 years BEFORE I apply to vet school though. 1.) to finish my undergraduate at the University of Colorado (in boulder) and 2. to set up residency so I actually have a freakin chance of getting in. Getting into one of the 27 vet schools in this country is a pain! Imn biting my nails just thinking about it!

[Liz P]

No, no relatives in CO. I will be moving there 2 years BEFORE I apply to vet school though. 1.) to finish my undergraduate at the University of Colorado (in boulder) and 2. to set up residency so I actually have a freakin chance of getting in. Getting into one of the 27 vet schools in this country is a pain! Imn biting my nails just thinking about it!

 

Just some advice so you are not heartbroken and your plans are not ruined... Make SURE that CO will count your 2 years there as a student as being a resident. Most vet schools in the US will NOT count time spent in the state as a student, even if you become a resident, get a drivers license, pay taxes, etc. Even if you are independent of your parents, most schools count their address as your permanent address. The one school I know of that counts being a student as being a resident is OH. For many schools establishing residency means living there for several years AFTER graduating and working full time.

 

Where do your parents live? MO? Nothing wrong with their vet school.

 

About half of Tufts' class is out of state, so if you don't mind moving to New England that could be a good backup for you.

 

If you don't already have this book (http://www.amazon.com/Veterinary-Medical-School-Admission-Requirements/dp/1557534721/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203879847&sr=1-1) BUY IT NOW!

 

If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[CatStar]

It looks like Giuli (original poster) probably isn't around these boards any more (hasn't logged in since February, I see!)

...but just in case anyone else should ever wander in, discover this thread, and want advice about a similar situation,

I might as well post anyway.

 

First of all...yes, you CAN have a border collie in an apartment OR while you are working and/or going to school

OR along with a cat. I really, really wouldn't recommend trying ALL those things AT THE SAME TIME, *especially*

if you have never had a border collie before. Giuli said that she's already done a few years of research...good

start, but she probably still needs to continue her research for a few more years. If she were *truly* ready to

go into this, she would *already be* informed about what she would be going into, and would *already know*

a little more about whether she's ready for the challenge or not. And there is *no way in the world* that

COMBINING a border collie, a cat, three ferrets, a job, vet school, etc. could possibly NOT be a challenge.

Actually, as soon as she goes into vet school she'll probably feel like she hardly has any time to spend with

the pets she already has. And a border collie would need to be SUPERVISED, big time, around a cat and

three ferrets. Leaving all of them alone together would definitely be inappropriate and could even be

very unsafe, especially for the ferrets. (Actually the first post I read in this thread was Giuli's post at

the top of the second page...and I thought at first that when Giuli said that her boyfriend wanted to

raise the dog to be "good with the ferrets", she meant that her boyfriend wanted to hunt ferrets!

[Okay, ferreting is not such a popular sport any more, but you never know. ^_~]) *Anyone*

thinking of bringing *any* dog of a hunting and/or herding breed into a home with small animals

*needs* to be *very* aware that the DOG may well think of the small pets as prey animals,

whether the *humans* think of them that way or not. ANY animal smaller than a cat...

and even a cat, under some circumstances...is *potentially prey* to a dog. The herding instinct is

adapted from the hunting instinct, and there are LOTS of border collies who are very skilled hunters,

mousers, etc. and would probably kill a ferret if they had the chance. Also, *even a dog who is friends

with a cat* may chase the cat, bark at the cat, and occasionally even fight with the cat. I personally

recommend getting a puppy, the smaller and younger the better, so that he/she will be raised with

the small pets AND won't be much bigger than they are at first. Either that, or getting a very calm,

quiet, sedate adult dog, and/or an adult dog who is KNOWN to be GREAT with cats and who does

NOT hunt small animals! (Neither of my dogs would be particularly suited to Giuli's pet family...

they both hunt. I used to have a pretty bad mouse problem...and the one border collie and I

couldn't catch all of them all by ourselves...but with two border collies and a cat [the dogs

are NEVER left *alone* with the cat for more than a few minutes, for any reason or under

any circumstances!], guess what, there are a lot fewer mice around my house now! ^_~)

 

Second of all...no, a rescue society probably wouldn't, and definitely shouldn't, particularly

care if you *own your own home* or not...BUT if a rescue society says yes to fostering and/or

adopting a border collie in a one-bedroom apartment with a cat and three ferrets, EITHER

they have gotten to know you and REALLY trust you and have asked you tons of questions

(and maybe have actually met your cat and three ferrets! ^_~) OR they are not a very

responsible rescue society. Personally, if somebody wanted to buy a dog from me or be

given a dog by me or anything like that, and I knew that the person lived in a one-bedroom

apartment with a cat and three ferrets, I would say NO. I have never had *any* dogs who

I personally think would behave themselves in that kind of situation. Putting a dog in that

kind of situation means either asking the dog to be REALLY well-behaved and not at all likely

to give in to temptation, or just *letting* the dog chase the cat and the ferrets all over the

one-bedroom apartment (which is really *not* a situation that very many, if any, people

would genuinely *want*, if they knew what it might be like in real life!), or staying home

nearly all the time so you can supervise, or getting a petsitter who can be there quite a

lot (and won't charge you an arm and a leg), or caging the ferrets a lot more than they

would want to be caged, and getting the dog and the cat each a small room or medium-sized

area of his or her own where they don't have to be together if they don't want to (which could

be a real challenge in a one-bedroom apartment! ^_~) (believe me, I've *had* the "where the

heck are you going to put everyone" challenge many a time...and I've only ever had dogs

and cats, no ferrets or other pets smaller than cats!).

 

Giuli, if you do come back and read this...you seem like a really great person and I think

I would enjoy talking to you, BUT, I really, really don't think that you should get any

border collies...or any dogs at all unless they're tiny and not very active...within the

next couple of years. (If you've already gotten one by now, I wish you the best of

luck and I hope you'll be able to keep him or her. But if you don't yet have one...

please don't get one for a few years yet...please. With your heavy work schedule,

your heavy school schedule, your family of pets who are probably going to be

quite enough for you with your busy schedule...no, you're not ready, and most

of the people who thought that you even *might* be were probably just not

quite looking at your *entire* situation. I think that maybe if you get a house

[or at least a bigger apartment ^_~] with lots of hiding places for the cat and

the ferrets, and you're at a point in your life where at least most of your schooling

is finished, you *could* do it if you really want...but *even then* it would probably

be a real challenge...a fun challenge, but a challenge...and not to be entered into

lightly. I know you said you want to go to agility trials and stuff like that...which

is great, BUT, you really, really need to consider the fact that a LOT of the dog's

time is still going to be spent at home. With the cat. And the ferrets. ^_~ Um...

stop and think whether that's what you REALLY want to do, and if so, wouldn't you

really rather do it later on when you might be less busy? ^_~)

 

I don't think I'd EVER want to try living in a one-bedroom apartment with

border collie, a cat, AND three ferrets. I *have* lived in a one-bedroom

apartment with two cats. I've even had a border collie and cats spending

a lot of time in a basement together (which was probably a really dumb idea

...ever heard of the expression "it's like trying to herd cats"? well, you don't

REALLY know what that means until you've seen a dog actually *trying to*

herd cats [it pretty much can't be done, because they all go in different

directions! ^_~]). But...to each his/her own taste. Maybe there actually

are people in the world who WOULD enjoy living in a one-bedroom

apartment with a border collie and a cat and three ferrets. ^_~

If you have a really adventurous spirit, and if that's your kind of

adventure, okay...but make sure that *you are one of* the people

in the world who would enjoy that kind of thing!!! ^_~

 

Now for some examples, from my life, of how a very nice, very sweet,

but very PLAYFUL border collie puppy behaves with a cat WHO SHE IS

FRIENDS WITH. (A cat adopted me last month. My puppy was five months

old then. She is now six months old. She is probably one of the easiest,

nicest, gentlest puppies I've ever had. [it is a total myth that adults are

always easier. I personally tend to find puppies easier to train than adults.

And you *cannot count on it* that an adult dog will come already trained...

especially, to match your circumstances...especially, if you have some

unusual circumstances, such as living with a cat and three ferrets! ^_~]

[Puppies are easier to RAISE WITH your family, to raise them the way

that you want them to be, etc. On the other hand, *some* adults are

calmer than *some* puppies. However, if you happen to get a dog who

happens to be neurotic/destructive/etc. (like my older one), the dog will

*not necessarily* grow out of it AND may be in his/her most difficult stage

of it during young adulthood. The only way it's true that "an adult is easier

than a puppy" is if you happen to get a really great adult, and/or if you happen

to be not used to puppies and/or if you object to training puppies. (Or, if

you just happen to have a really wild-mannered puppy who really outgrows

a lot of the behavior. Which I guess *is* the stereotype, but is not *always*

the reality! ^_~) If you like puppies and like to live with puppies, they can be

at least as easy as adults, sometimes easier...plus, what's easy for me is to

do what I like best, what's hard is to do what I don't enjoy as much (like training

a stubborn adult...now THAT'S hard work!!! ^_~)] [Also, lots of border collies

are NOT destructive...and the ones that ARE, it's usually NOT because they're

puppies. A dog with really destructive tendencies can start out sort of batty,

but too young yet to really *destroy* very much. It's when the same dog

is a year or two old that you *really* have to worry. And yeah, almost all

puppies chew, and border collie puppies probably chew more...but not

all that MUCH more IF they are mild-mannered and not obsessive.])

 

Okay...when my cat and my puppy first met...

Puppy: "I wanna be FRIENDS!!!"

Cat (grouchily, swatting puppy): "Well, *I* sure don't. Get the heck AWAY from me!"

A month later...they are actually more or less friends now...I encouraged this by holding

both of them in the same chair at the same time, but *also* letting them each have

her own space to be (and the puppy is outdoors a lot in good weather, and the cat

is an indoor cat!). Some of the things that go on between this puppy and cat WHO

ARE FRIENDLY (most of the time ^_~): Puppy barks at cat. Puppy chases cat.

Cat swats puppy if she gets too close too suddenly. Puppy and cat run after

each other really fast all over the living room (kinda cute if you don't mind

that it's also a bit startling! ^_~). Puppy and cat suddenly get in a fight

(actually I think the cat usually wins...and nobody gets seriously hurt...

but that's only because they don't hate each other!). Cat catches mouse,

puppy steals mouse from cat (took it right out of her mouth, I think!),

poor cat sits there looking like she can't figure out how that happened

(pretty amusing except I felt sorry for the cat! ^_~).

 

Having a cat and a puppy together *can* actually be kind of entertaining.

(The older dog doesn't spend as much time with them as they spend with

each other, and she is NEVER left alone with the cat. She really acts just

curious about the cat, BUT, if she is outside and a cat goes through the

yard, she will *bark like mad* until the cat is gone. The inside cat I think

is seen as part of the household...BUT I wouldn't count on that to be

ALWAYS the case, especially if I wasn't there!) Having a dog, a cat,

AND three ferrets *all together*...aaaaack...just the *thought* of it

wears me out...but...it's not *my* business if somebody else wants

to do that...so I'm just going to say, attempt at your own risk...

only please, *not* in a one-bedroom apartment *while* working

and going to school so much that you are hardly ever home.

 

I hope that my long (long ^_~) post has entertained and informed.

(Even if Giuli never reads it...maybe someone else, somewhere,

someday, will get something out of it [some entertainment, if

nothing else! ^_~].)

 

Have fun, and good luck!

 

[juliepoudrier]

CatStar,

I did enjoy your post, but I really disagree with some of the generalizations. Puppies are not always easier to train than older dogs, puppies are not always (or even sometimes) easier to teach to leave small "prey" animals alone, and lots of people live in small houses/apartments with multiple dogs and/or multiple species. There are several folks on this forum who live or have lived in small apartments (as in studios) with multiple dogs and perhaps a cat or two as well. And they made it work without any horrible problems.

 

I have brought in adult rescues and raised puppies and they all know better than to bother the cats or the tiny chickens or anything else I might have around here. I generally do not encourage any cat chasing, even in play (there was one exception to that rule). Sooner or later a pup grows into a dog and if it hasn't learned that chasing cats isn't a good thing, it's the cat who's likely to get the raw end of the deal (that is, the cat can master the pup now, but if pups grows up to be 50 pounds, it could easily hurt a cat without trying very hard--I've been on the receiving end of a nip intended for a sheep, and I can tell you that it hurt and drew blood--my fault because my hand was in the way--but please don't make the mistake of thinking that the cat is going to teach the pup not to hurt it once the pup is fully grown). One reason I almost never allow my dogs to chase a cat (even if it's in puppy play) is that it sets the tone for the dog's reaction to all cats and other small animals that might run. For me it's easier to teach that chasing small animals--even the household cats in play--is verboten rather than expecting the dog to distinguish when it's okay to chase and when it's not. That's why I can comfortably leave dogs and cats alone in the house or out in the yard, or even have a cat go on walks with us. The dogs' default is to NOT chase the cats, ever.

 

I certainly leave this house and expect the dogs not to kill the cats while I'm gone. I don't consider that insanity, just good training on my part. Granted, I don't have ferrets, but if I did, I'd probably not leave them loose in the house when I'm not around simply because there are too many dangers for them (of the non-canine variety) for me to be comfortable doing that. I also leave the dogs out in the yard for extended periods of time and they know better than to chase or kill chickens. And yes, these are dogs that will dig up and kill moles, toads, and the like, so they're not just unusually pacifist when it comes to small animals.

 

Even in a one-bedroom apartment, you could use a baby gate to block the bedroom or the bathroom as a haven for smaller critters. Lots of folks do that too. Even though I live in a larger house, I always have a room that's gated off for the cats (usually the bedroom). The dogs are allowed in at night when we are all sleeping, but during the day, it's the cats' dog-free zone.

 

I also strongly disagree with this statement:

The only way it's true that "an adult is easier than a puppy" is if you happen to get a really great adult, and/or if you happen to be not used to puppies and/or if you object to training puppies.

 

Consider that most adults adopted through a rescue are already housetrained, proofed against chewing everything up, and all the other typical puppy behaviors, and I don't see how anyone can say that a puppy is easier than an adult. It's just not so. They may be somewhat equal if you adopt a completely unsocialized and untrained adult, but in general an adult dog is easier if for no other reason than it has already gone through all the puppy stages that can be tough, namely house training, teething, and the adolescent "give the owner the doggie bird" stages. I certainly don't object to training puppies (I have three dogs here that are all around two years old, so obviously I even went so far as to raise three puppies at once), but there's no way I'd claim that raising a pup (even a single pup, which I've also done) is easier than taking in an adult dog (five of my nine came to me as adults, ranging in age anywhere from 18 months to 7 years). You just can't make those sorts of generalizations.

 

For a student or someone whose time is limited, an adult rescue makes a whole lot more sense than a pup. Odd schedules are the bane to housebreaking and other puppy training. As others have mentioned, if the person getting a dog wants to get into dog sports and the like, a young adult is ready to start training in those activities immediately, and if it's gone through a reputable rescue, then the rescue has likely evaluated the dog's drive and suitability for sports. Pups are largely an unknown quantity in that respect, because as we all know, even the best breeding doesn't guarantee the pup will grow up to be what it was hoped to be. And of course, a pup won't be doing sports until it's 18 months old or older.

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to turn this into an argument with you, just to point out that the opposite of many of the generalizations you made is being lived by members of this forum. What wouldn't work for one individual might certainly work for another.

 

J.

[Seelie Fey]

I would add a vote to the "adults are easier to train" group. Puppies learn fast, forget fast, relearn, decide to test the boundries, accept a rule, decide to check their status by challenging the rule, etc. They are very changable critters. Adult dogs learn and (with work) stay learned.

 

A limiting factor in participation in doggie activities that hasn't been voiced up to now (unless I missed it) is money. Lessons take money. Practice drill sessions on equipment take money. Traveling to tournaments and trials takes money. Registering and entering takes money. Hotels to stay at while attending events takes money. Club dues take money. Agility equipment costs money (though pvc jumps and weave poles are quite cheap). Vet bills take money. Feeding the dog a decent diet costs money.

[SoloRiver]

I can give a pretty good comparison of adopting a "worst case scenario" adult vs. raising a puppy. Because of Solo's lack of socialization, lack of training, and, er, psychiatric issues (there's no other good, short way to describe them), every interaction with either me or (especially) the environment was a serious learning experience. Because of his separation anxiety, I either took him everywhere with me or left him alone for only very, very short periods of time.

 

Hmm, sounds kind of like raising Jett. Every interaction, every walk, a learning experience (because she was brand new and experiencing everything for the first time) -- check. Took her everywhere with me or left her alone for only very short periods of time because I wanted her to get housebroken and not spend too much time by herself while she was so little -- check.

 

If you disregard most of the psychiatric issues (because the vast majority of adult adopted dogs won't have them) and factor in the fact that Solo could hold his bladder and bowels for hours while baby Jett could only hold it for a couple of hours at the most, the fact that Solo only needed to eat once a day, and that his attention span was orders of magnitude better than Jett's, I'd say that the first six months with Solo were easier than the first six months with Jett.

 

You can also factor in that puppies are not really blank slates. Even if they are very young (seven or eight weeks) they definitely bring some personality quirks and individual tendencies to the table. For example, Jett was not particularly outgoing as a tiny pup, and people advancing upon her squealing "wookit the cute puppy" kinda gave her the creeps. Therefore I took the same care introducing her to new people as I would a not-so-socialized older dog. It paid off -- at eight months she's not a Wal-Mart greeter but she doesn't think new people are overly creepy either. But she wasn't a pup I could just throw at anyone and if I had she may have remained creeped out by new people. She also has a pronounced tendency to want to chase small animals and birds (oh, and small running neighbor kids -- heh) that I have not encouraged -- much more prey drive than either of my adult dogs ever had. I don't have a cat, but if I did I'd have to supervise her around it pretty closely and given how interested she is it would probably be a constant battle and not that much fun.

 

If it had been important to me to have a dog that threw herself at everyone (I don't care if she likes strangers, personally, as long as she isn't scared of them or dangerous to them), or one that would never consider chasing a cat (I am not a cat person and I actually like that she keeps the neighbor cats out of the yard), I would have had much better luck adopting an adult of known temperament than raising a puppy from scratch. You have to take into account that some -- maybe a lot -- about personality and temperament is genetic, that they are born with it. You can shape a puppy's development, but you are not going to dictate or create it. And even if you could, the odds that a new Border Collie owner is going to have the skills to do so properly are probably pretty much nil. (I am always amazed by such hubris -- people don't even consider that they might screw the puppy up. Personally I was quite worried about this, and I have way more experience shaping behavior than most owners would ever want to bother with.) People who think they can shape a puppy like a lump of clay are usually in for woe, or at least a few unpleasant surprises along the way.

[kcdawg]

I really dont think my dogs consider my two bedroom small apartment "less than ideal" nor do i.

We cant all be lucky enough to live on lots of land. A Border Collie can be happy in an apartment and can be sad on a farm, it just depends on how much you put into the dog. I happen to live on a rural setting so my dogs run off leash in the fields and by our river and they follow me everywhere.

They get tons of play time and when the weather is bad we sit in the house and watch tv or play with doggie toys! I like to put peanut butter in kongs to keep them busy on those days. I even play hide and seek with them. They dont always find me!!

Sounds like you really are doing a great job on researching the breed and came to a great place for advice.

good luck, once you go Border Collie-you never go back!

 

addicting....................