Late heat cycle

[kimkathan]

My bitch is "over due" for her cycle by roughly 28 days. She has cycled pretty regular at 179 days for the last 3 cycles, but is now at 209 day with no swelling. She looks great, lot of energy and is working every day. Coat looks wonderful. I don't think that I've missed it, as the neutered male usually is good at keeping up with these things. I'm ALMOST 100% positive that she is NOT bred (never say never), but can't palpate anything and like I said, she never swelled up or was showing signs. There have been a few changes to life. We've moved recently, and have been in the midst of breeding the sheep with a new wirey ram which has seemed to stress her out at times.

 

How concerned should I be?

[juliepoudrier]

I'd be grateful, LOL! Of course the best answer is to get her checked by a vet to rule out some physical reason for the lack of a heat cycle. If she's much thinner than she has been in the past, that can cause a lack of a heat cycle (think of ultrathin athletes who stop having their periods). I imagine stress could stop it too, but have no facts to back that up. If you aren't inclined to take her to the vet, I'd just watch her for signs of any illness.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Having just gone through three progesterone tests in the last two weeks with Riddle, who came into heat the day the fires here in SoCal began, I got to be pretty good friends with the expert gal at the Canine Cryobank. She told me that she was seeing lots of bitches who were not keeping their normal schedule due to the stress of the fires, being uprooted from their homes, etc. She also said some came into season as expected, but weren't ovulating at the usual/expected time. So, I'd think it could have something to do with the stressors. But I would also check with the vet to be sure.

A

 

ETA: Oh, and there was also a gal who evacuated with a 61 day bred Lab. Poor thing looked miserable, but just wouldn't have those pups! Finally, at day 65, the gal got to take her back home, and voila! Evidently the mom was relaxed enough at home to have her pups.

[Liz P]

It is VERY normal for a bitch to slowly start to go longer and longer between heat cycles, even if there is no stress involved. (In your case it sounds like there is a lot of stress.) One of my bitches had her first 3 or 4 every 6 months on the dot, then she went 7, 7.5, 8 months. It is better for them to go longer between cycles, less wear and tear on the uterus. I would rather have a bitch that only came in once a year, healthier for her and half the amount of time being extra vigilant for me. If you are concerned you can do a progesterone test to make sure you didn't miss her (it would be elevated if she had been in heat a month ago, pregnant or not).

[C Crocker]

Having just gone through three progesterone tests in the last two weeks with Riddle, who came into heat the day the fires here in SoCal began, I got to be pretty good friends with the expert gal at the Canine Cryobank.

 

Anna,

 

Sorry to divert the thread but is the Canine Cryobank for frozen semen for dogs perhaps?

I ask because I am thinking of breeding my Border Collie next year and have looked a bit into frozen, if that becomes necessary. I find very mixed opinions from "not a problem " to "poor conception rate".

I would appreciate any feedback if you are going through this frozen semen process.

Thanks.

Carolyn

[kelpiegirl]

I think this is a great topic. It would be good to hear from folks who have stored semen, and if they implanted surgically, or not, and what the outcome was, and was it worth it. For me, it would be good to hear about folks who have imported semen.

[Liz P]

I ask because I am thinking of breeding my Border Collie next year and have looked a bit into frozen, if that becomes necessary. I find very mixed opinions from "not a problem " to "poor conception rate".

I would appreciate any feedback if you are going through this frozen semen process.

Thanks.

Carolyn

 

I have found that there are 2 factors when considering success of frozen semen. The most important is the quality of the sperm itself. You want to find out from the stud owner how the sperm looked before being frozen and what the conception rate was for that specific sire using frozen semen. Sperm from most dogs just doesn't freeze well. The second factor is the success rate of the veterinarian doing the implanting. Find out what that vet's conception rate with *frozen* was! Same are in the 90% and others way down around 25%.

 

You also have to consider cost though! It is not uncommon for people to spend $2000 just to get the dog pregnant and only get 1 or 2 pups. Do not expect to break even with a litter using frozen semen. It happens, but more often breeders lose a whole lot of money on those litters.

 

But then, there is that all important question, have you seen the stud work? Or, have you at least seen lots of his relatives, including pups, work and discussed with the stud owner whether that dog would suite your bitch? Using frozen semen often means the stud is too far away to ship the bitch (and to have seen the stud work in person). Why spend all that money unless you are sure that this particular stud is the right match? Breeding is a huge gamble, you can do all the research and planning in the world and still not get what you wanted out of the litter.

 

The advice given to me, which I followed in the end, was to do a natural breeding with my maiden bitch. Since she was older and had never been bred I didn't even know if she could get pregnant in an ideal situation. Had she already whelped a litter it might have been a different story.

[1sheepdoggal]

I checked on frozen semen a couple of years ago, and I would caution those that are interested, to "READ THE FINE PRINT!" They do not gaurentee anything. No live birth, not even one pup. And if the dog does not concieve, they can blame it on your vet for not doing it properly, or that you allowed the semen to some how go bad, or any myirad of things other than it wasnt any good to start with. And No refunds. This may not be true of all, but it was the case with all that I checked out. I decided not to go this way, even though the dogs were proven dogs, because I didnt want to take the risk and expence without them at least offering to gaurentee a live pup, or another breeding. I would be interested to know if anyone has tried it, and what the percentages of conception are for AI with frozen. Darci

[stockdogranch]

Carolyn: yes, this is the Canine Cryobank here in San Marcos, CA. They do, indeed, do AI, with fresh, cooled, and then in conjunction with a vet nearby, frozen. They do "regular" AI, trans-cervical for cooled or fresh, and surgical with frozen. The gal there, Carol, has been doing this for 25+ years, and apparently has quite the reputation for being very successful. A lot of the success rate for using frozen semen depends on not only the condition of the sperm itself when collected, but in the extender it is frozen with, how it is shipped, and then how it is thawed, along with the exact proper timing of the surgery, as thawed semen doesn't live nearly as long as fresh or even cooled. A friend of mine in Wyoming recently had some semen shipped in from the UK and had his bitch surgically AI'd, with no conception. When I asked Carol about it, she said that almost all of the sperm she has seen from the UK has been "crap," meaning that it had not been handled properly.

 

So, yes, Riddle had surgical AI last Saturday morning. Why? The stud dog is in Wyoming, and I can't just pick up in the middle of the quarter at school and run off to Wyoming for a week (I would have to cancel classes, as we don't have subs, AND we just lost a week of school with campus closed due to fires). I am not the type to pack my bitch up in a crate and ship her ANYWHERE. She stays with me. Period. In response to Liz's questions about seeing the dog work, etc.--absolutely! I could have much more easily done a natural breeding with a more local dog (northern CA--still 12 hours away but more doable), but that would have been just using that dog because he was relatively handy (he's also a very nice dog). I selected THIS particular dog based on all the good reasons: he's one helluva dog, truly exceptional, both work-wise and in temperament. He never tore up the trial field (not because he couldn't, but because in his heyday, his owner wasn't into trialling), but has been a go-to ranch cattle-working son of a gun for a long time (we're talking about a major cattle operation here). His qualities and Riddle's are a great combination, AND their bloodlines will totally complement each others'. The vet who did the surgery says that their success rate (the team of the Cryobank and him) for this past year is 18 out of 19.

 

Of course, there are no "money-back" guarantees; there are no guarantees when you put the bitch in with the dog for a natural breeding, either, although the expenses are much less. There are no guarantees with people using IVF, either, How could there be? I don't breed to make money, or even to "break even"; I breed occasionally because I believe I have a contribution to make to the breed, and this particular cross should be an excellent one. I agree, doing this with a maiden bitch might not make as much sense, but Riddle's had one litter, so I know she can conceive. Altogether I have close to $1000. in this project so far, from shipping the semen, to progesterone testing, to the surgery and Carol's handling of the semen for the surgery (she meets you at the vet's and thaws the semen so that it is just right for the surgery). Of course, I am really hoping that we'll get pups, but if we don't there is no one to blame or look to for a "refund"; it just didn't happen, wasn't "in the cards." BUT, this particular breeding is important enough to give it a try; so it's not a case of just wanting to get her bred (hell, that would have been easy), it's a case of wanting to get her bred to this PARTICULAR DOG.

 

We'll do an ultrasound just after Thanksgiving and we'll know then if we have any pups coming. In the meantime, any and all good thoughts for conception are appreciated,

A

[Liz P]

Yeah, I did a 2 day, 32 hr round trip drive to drop off my bitch then a 2 day, 20 hr round trip drive to pick her up at a trial. NOT FUN!!!!! Although, having an excuse to go to an Edgeworth trial was nice

[kelpiegirl]

I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for Ms Riddle.

[C Crocker]

We'll do an ultrasound just after Thanksgiving and we'll know then if we have any pups coming. In the meantime, any and all good thoughts for conception are appreciated,

A

 

 

 

Anna,

 

Thanks for the info. I have bred horses for 45+ years , as well as having a stallion for all his 24 years, which we stood to the public. I have not bred a dog though and am trying to learn the differences. The one similarity I am going with, and your post confirmed my thinking, is that I would not breed to any dog, just the same as horses, to any stud because it is convenient. Fortunately, since my eye is not experienced, I have very good guidance in picking a stud. I am just trying to define the geographical areas I will be confined to. Not rich so won't be vacationing in the UK and get Lyn bred while over there. Not really rich enough to travel to the far reaches of the USA! So shipped seems like a possibility.

 

 

Oh and I agree, no need to figure how much money I will "make" on these pups, working pups don't seem to sell for as much as they should .

 

 

I wish you the best of luck with Riddle!

 

Carolyn

[stockdogranch]

Thanks for the good thoughts. I'm certainly not counting any chickens (or puppies) before they "hatch." Of course, the plot thickens, and at this point, I am concerned: Riddle is apparently having some sort of suture reaction. Cold compresses, hot compresses, antibiotics...I seem to be a definite victim of Murphy's Law of veterinary medicine--if it can have a complication, we'll have it! So any and all of that good Board mojo is appreciated!

A

[C Crocker]

Thanks for the good thoughts. I'm certainly not counting any chickens (or puppies) before they "hatch." Of course, the plot thickens, and at this point, I am concerned: Riddle is apparently having some sort of suture reaction. Cold compresses, hot compresses, antibiotics...I seem to be a definite victim of Murphy's Law of veterinary medicine--if it can have a complication, we'll have it! So any and all of that good Board mojo is appreciated!

A

[/quotAnna,

 

 

 

Anna ,

 

 

Sorry to hear there are even small complications. At least it's not a reaction to the frozen semen. We had a mare who was "allergic" to either the stallion's frozen semen or the extender. You're right --Murphy's Law does seem to crop up!

 

 

Just a coincidence-Lyn's sire came from Wyoming also. He was a cattle dog , now a sheepdog ( oaccasionally moves cattle for the owner's husband). He was high score yesterday at the Pt Pleasant Open Sheepdog Trial.

 

Keep us posted on Riddle and I know I'll keep thinking good thoughts.

 

 

Carolyn

[stockdogranch]

Thanks for the good thoughts. As of this morning, it appears that the new antibiotic is actually having some effect. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

What was the reaction when there was an allergy to the semen or the extender? That must have been horrible! What was the fix for that one?

 

Who is Lyn's sire from WY? Or the breeder? Must be someone I know, as I seem to be spending lots of time there in the past few years,

A

[C Crocker]

Thanks for the good thoughts. As of this morning, it appears that the new antibiotic is actually having some effect. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

What was the reaction when there was an allergy to the semen or the extender? That must have been horrible! What was the fix for that one?

 

Who is Lyn's sire from WY? Or the breeder? Must be someone I know, as I seem to be spending lots of time there in the past few years,

A

[/quote

 

Anna,

 

 

Lyn's sire is a dog named Hap. He is by a son of Alf Kyme's Moss ( who both Alun Jones and Jim Cropper told me was a very good dog. Alun has a young son of Hap he took back to Wales with him .)

 

The breeding I think you may know is Hap's bottom side. His dam is Is , breeder Gene Litton. There was an article a year or so ago in the Working BC Magazine about the Litton's , their ranch, cattle and sheep business. Mr Litton referred to Is's sire Nip as the most useful dog he had. Ranch work all week , and a few trials on the weekend. Is' dam is by Wisp.

 

As for the extender reaction , it was a mare owned by a client . I remember the mare , but I cannot recall if we got her pg. Probably not on that heat anyway! It actually bubbled out of her--quite strange.

 

Carolyn

[stockdogranch]

Who has Hap--if he was at Pt. Pleasant this weekend, must be fairly close to me, but the name isn't ringing any bells? Sure, I know the Littons. Great folks! And those girls from Wisp! Yup--great stuff there! My girls on their mamma's side are all line bred Wisp, and in fact, the stud Riddle was just bred to is a Wisp son.

 

The irritation seems to be getting some better, but my hopes for pups are somewhat diminished at this point.

A

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

My young dog (will be 3 at the end of January) came into her first heat at 15+ months, and her second heat was a year later. I've never had a once-a-year gal before; at this age and having had two cycles, is it reasonable to say she would stay once a year, or is it still possible she could start cycling twice a year? I know they aren't always 100% on a "schedule" at first, but it seems like she's old enough to be set by now.

 

The point is probably moot since I am almost certainly going to spay her, but I'm just curious, if anyone has any input.

[juliepoudrier]

Megan,

Not quite once-a-year gals, but both Twist and Kat were/are on 8-month cycles, so just three heats every two years.

 

Anna,

I'm sending whatever good mojo I can your and Riddle's way.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Thanks, Julie. The incision definitely looks much better, but at this point, I am not terribly hopeful about pups. As long as my girl is OK, that's the main thing.

 

Riddle was on a 7 month cycle till after she had her pups; then she switched to 6 months. Some of her sisters have always been on an 11 month cycle. Seems like that's kind of always been their regular deal. So, I would say after her third cycle, if it's around a year, that would seem to be her routine,

A

[C Crocker]

Who has Hap--if he was at Pt. Pleasant this weekend, must be fairly close to me, but the name isn't ringing any bells? Sure, I know the Littons. Great folks! And those girls from Wisp! Yup--great stuff there! My girls on their mamma's side are all line bred Wisp, and in fact, the stud Riddle was just bred to is a Wisp son.

 

The irritation seems to be getting some better, but my hopes for pups are somewhat diminished at this point.

A

 

 

Anna,

 

Yes same Hap that was at Pt Pleasant this weekend. He won the first Open, and the today was second in the double lift. His son Buzz won the overall Nursery Champion there , with another good pup that Jennifer Ewers had, named Gunner close on his heels. Suzy Applegate owns/trains/trials both Hap and Buzz .

 

I scribed for the judge all three days and it was quite a good opportunity to learn. I am going to a clinic this week with the judge as clinician and am looking forward to it.

 

You set out sheep for Lyn at last years Nationals, but I am sure she was just one of the many many you set for there!

 

 

By coincidence today the judge talked about Wisp as he knew the dog/owner and was at many trials where Wisp ran. He thinks it's a good thing to have Wisp in that pedigree.

 

As I mentioned before I know nothing about breeding dogs, but I was under the impression that Riddle infection was due to sutures. Are these internal sutures? Does she run a fever?

 

I will keep my fingers crossed for Riddle.

 

Carolyn

[quicksilver]

It is VERY normal for a bitch to slowly start to go longer and longer between heat cycles, even if there is no stress involved. (In your case it sounds like there is a lot of stress.) One of my bitches had her first 3 or 4 every 6 months on the dot, then she went 7, 7.5, 8 months. It is better for them to go longer between cycles, less wear and tear on the uterus. I would rather have a bitch that only came in once a year, healthier for her and half the amount of time being extra vigilant for me.

 

That makes me feel a lot better about my little girl. She had her first season at 17 1/2 months (December 2005), then the next one in October 2006 and the third one in August this year. That's about 9 1/2 to 10 months between seasons. I'm wondering whether the raw diet could be part of it (her two litter sisters come in every 6-7 months), or whether it's other things like her athleticism and leanness.

[stockdogranch]

As I mentioned before I know nothing about breeding dogs, but I was under the impression that Riddle infection was due to sutures. Are these internal sutures? Does she run a fever?

 

Yes, there are some internal sutures. The Dr. who did her surgery says he has never seen a reaction quite like this (geez!). She never did run a temp, and it now looks WAY better than it did a week ago. Her sutures are due to come out Saturday. We won't know anything about possible pups till after Thanksgiving, and will let y'all know as soon as we do an ultrasound.

 

Thanks for all the good thoughts. I'm sending good energy to the fertility gods and goddesses!

A

[bc4pack]

As for the once/yr cycle... All the biches I've had ( Pope Robertson's Lash II breeding ) have

been about 18 mos at their first heat and 11-12 mos after that... regular as clockwork too.

 

My eldest bitch didn't come in till she was 22 mos, and another yearly cycler ( different bloodlines). Bred her on her 3rd heat and all of her bitch pups (3) promptly came in at 7 mos. Go figure!!!!