Testing non-herding breeds on sheep?

[Geoffrey]

I was wondering where the next big debate was hiding - the Coffee Break forum has been conspicuously quiet for the last day or two. Now I have found it in my own thread.....ah, the irony.

 

 

Back on my own topic:

 

Lenajo - very interesting post. I hadn't really looked a breed "classifications" that way before. Of course, I knew that several breeds were multi-purpose but I never really applied that to things like hunt tests and herding. I guess your story about the BCs capable of passing hunt tests is similar to say a poodle in herding, they can both be useful. One thing to note though, would be that I doubt the BC could compete in field trials (much harder than hunt tests) or the poodle in BC-style herding trials. If I remember right, I saw the phrase "jack of all trades - master of none" somewhere in this thread.

[Shetlander]

Tearing off ears is wrong since basic humane behavior is appropriate, but at the same time sheep are sheep, they ARE livestock where I come from and are meant for producing wool and meat. So it's hard for someone from my background to have some passionate feelings for sheep.

 

I have very limited experience with sheep, but the more I got to know them at Quinn's lessons, the more I liked them. And to be honest, I was uncomfortable at times with the ones I saw for their lot in life schooling dogs. At least Quinn was quickly taught not to chase and he was not one to grip but the sheep still weren't having fun out there. That's just me as a city girl.

[Sue R]

Since "herding behavior" is really just very highly developed "predator behavior" done in partnership with a handler (the alpha pack member), it stands to reason that many dogs that have "interest" in stock might demonstrate some attributes that are a part of "herding behavior". Of course, some of these predatory instincts would run counter to low-stress stockmanship - like the dog who chases, bites, and wreaks havoc. But those instincts that "work" and are useful, are useful whether or not the dog is a purebred Border Collie.

 

Our runty Airedale was a terrific dog when you wanted to gather, control, and move pigs. She proved that on several, spontaneous occasions. She had no training at all, just basic instincts and a desire to work with us, not against us or for herself.

 

The Border Collie, of all breeds, possesses the instincts needed for good stockmanship in unity with a handler. Just because these attributes are most developed and visible in the well-bred (and well-trained) Border Collie, doesn't mean that there aren't other dogs that randomly or by genetic background, possess some natural ability.

 

As for "livestock" - passionate about livestock of any particular sort or not, sensible husbandry and good stockmanship is humane and productive. However, in some aspects of "modern farming", the almighty dollar seems to outweigh some humane considerations of stock for many, as long as the stock is productive enough to make the money. That is a shame, IMO.

 

However, I do object when any "herding breed" dog is considered showing "instinct" or even more so "capability" just because it follows its owner and a packet of very dog-broke sheep around a small pen. That's the AKC mantra - "herding is what they were bred for and therefore they can herd - the instinct test is proof!"

[sluj]

Thanks Lenajo and PSmitty!

 

Sluj-I'd tell a newbie to go to trials and find people who work their dogs on stock, and talk to them. Find out who works their dogs with which trainers. Ask for recommendations. Go and observe some trainers or at least talk to them. Once observing, I think one would know good stockmanship when they see it, I'd say they definitely will know when it's not.

 

Will it be difficult to find one who is willing to give you a chance, particularly if you're working with a non traditional breed or a mix? Possibly. I know I saw one trainer who was willing to "test" us, but once she saw Jack, suddenly had no time for lessons, which was her nice way of saying "no thanks". I don't know for certain if it was Jack being a mix, or if she thought she didn't see enough potential in his little "instinct test". But, I did find a another trainer who is willing to work with us, and it's going very well. So, it's certainly worth a try.

 

That was one of the things that made me hesitate, the other:

 

....However, in some aspects of "modern farming", the almighty dollar seems to outweigh some humane considerations of stock for many, as long as the stock is productive enough to make the money. That is a shame, IMO.

 

Since I could easily imagine someone with this sort of attitude offering lessons to any old dog, without regard to actual potential.

 

 

Thanks again for the answers. Now that I have hopes of finding a middle ground, I'll start asking around. Well, once Allie's basic obedience is firmed up anyways.