Testing non-herding breeds on sheep?

[kelpiegirl]

Here's yet another example of me being sucked into a topic I don't really care much about. My main concern at the start of the post is the humane treatment of the sheep and the dogs.

[Laurae]

I train with a few different people. One of my trainers also trains AKC dogs and rents her sheep to their owners if they are trialing at whatever level (I don't know what the different levels are). One of the rotties routinely harms the stock. Ducks are killed, and one sheep's ear was bitten off. It is disgusting. The trainer was planning to tell the rottie's owner that she couldn't work her rottie there anymore after she came home to find some money and another note explaining that it was for a couple more ducks that had gotten killed during the rottie's latest session. Not sure whether the banning ever occurred, but it's obvious to me that AKC trialing means absolutely nothing if this multititled "herding" dog regularly confuses the stock he is supposed to be working with prey.

[juliepoudrier]

Having just read this entire thread I have to say that I think the real problem lies in the whole concept of "instinct testing," as it's practiced in the videos shown as evidence. Lenajo is right about many a young and overly enthusastic broder collie being just as rough on stock as some of what was shown here (Pip left a trail of wool whenever he came into contact with sheep at first). The difference is, I think, that most folks I know who start young border collies don't just stand there and let the youngsters endlessly harrass or chase the stock. I think the reason you see that in the instinct testing is because the dog is supposed to show "sustained interest" for a certain amount of time and the people administering the test aren't trainers enough to actually do more than stand there and maybe try to protect the sheep (at least in some cases; in others it seemed as long as the dog wasn't physically connecting with the sheep then just running the crap out of them for three minutes was okay). But what I don't get is the whole "stand there and let the dog do whatever" thing. If I had been in with that Laekenois, I think I would have been trying to channel some of that energy. I was dizzy just watching the dog circle endlessly in one direction. She had herself and a rattle paddle; it would have made sense to use her body and the paddle to try to get the dog to actually circle in both directions and maybe wear the sheep to her. I think by making an effort to actually get the dog doing a little of that sort of work would be a much more appropriate "instinct test" than just seeing if the dog is willing to pay attention to or chase the sheep here and there. And I agree with Julie that it was unconscionable to let it get to the point where the sheep was butting the dog, although the dog in this case hardly seemed to notice. I don't have sound on this computer so I couldn't hear the comments being made, which is probably just as well.

 

It doesn't bother me so much if people want to try their other breeds on stock, but it does bother me that the people offering the instinct testing don't make a better effort at protecting their stock and channeling the energy of the dogs from chasing to something that looks a bit more like stockwork.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

What you said.

 

Having just read this entire thread I have to say that I think the real problem lies in the whole concept of "instinct testing," as it's practiced in the videos shown as evidence. Lenajo is right about many a young and overly enthusastic broder collie being just as rough on stock as some of what was shown here (Pip left a trail of wool whenever he came into contact with sheep at first). The difference is, I think, that most folks I know who start young border collies don't just stand there and let the youngsters endlessly harrass or chase the stock. I think the reason you see that in the instinct testing is because the dog is supposed to show "sustained interest" for a certain amount of time and the people administering the test aren't trainers enough to actually do more than stand there and maybe try to protect the sheep (at least in some cases; in others it seemed as long as the dog wasn't physically connecting with the sheep then just running the crap out of them for three minutes was okay). But what I don't get is the whole "stand there and let the dog do whatever" thing. If I had been in with that Laekenois, I think I would have been trying to channel some of that energy. I was dizzy just watching the dog circle endlessly in one direction. She had herself and a rattle paddle; it would have made sense to use her body and the paddle to try to get the dog to actually circle in both directions and maybe wear the sheep to her. I think by making an effort to actually get the dog doing a little of that sort of work would be a much more appropriate "instinct test" than just seeing if the dog is willing to pay attention to or chase the sheep here and there. And I agree with Julie that it was unconscionable to let it get to the point where the sheep was butting the dog, although the dog in this case hardly seemed to notice. I don't have sound on this computer so I couldn't hear the comments being made, which is probably just as well.

 

It doesn't bother me so much if people want to try their other breeds on stock, but it does bother me that the people offering the instinct testing don't make a better effort at protecting their stock and channeling the energy of the dogs from chasing to something that looks a bit more like stockwork.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

I just wanted to add that I've not watched any of the videos other than the original poodle.

[sluj]

For those who would like to work the dog they have, and doesn't know much about stock, how do you go about finding a trainer? One who is willing to give you a chance, but also to tell you that your dog has no potential, and will protect their sheep appropriately during the time required for evaluation. Is it realistic to expect the newbie to know how to select a good trainer?

[sluj]

sorry, double post.

[Lenajo]

I think a good start is actually finding a trainer is using the www.littlehats.net listing. Definately not all the good trainers are on there, but it's a good start.

 

Then I suggest you go and watch some lessons with several different trainers. Use common sense as you watch..... are there a lot of fence crashing, chasing, or biting incidients? What does the trainer do about it? Occasionally (not every single lesson!) mistakes happen with young, green dogs but you want a trainer who is sensible and firm, without being an overbearing lout. Does the instructor teach the human student with as much kindness as offered the dogs? That's important too. Are the sheep allowed to rest if they've been stressed to panting? Are they too thin? weak? with overgrowm "elfish" hooves that indicate they aren't cared for well? Are the sheep suitable for training on - they shouldn't be using nursing ewes, heavily pregnant ewes, or nursing lambs without a specific reason and particular care.

 

Also the trainer needs to be a good stockperson first, and their breed of choice isn't relevent. You will however find the most experienced people typically have BCs, Aussies, or Kelpies because those breeds have the largest, most available genepools of effective working dogs. Avoid breed "specialists"...that's usually an excuse for various failings. Sheeps...is sheeps...and the dogs must adapt, not the sheep.

 

these are just some ideas, and yes, I believe that by using common sense and a foot work a novice can pick a decent instructor to start with.

 

Maybe a new thread would be a good idea...

[Guest LJS1993]

Mutton stew sounds good.

[Shetlander]

Mutton stew sounds good.

 

Ok, I'll bite (excuse the pun). What's with the food references in this thread?

[Laurae]

Ok, I'll bite (excuse the pun). What's with the food references in this thread?

 

Yet another instance of a poster having absolutely nothing relevant to add, but posting just to see themselves onscreen ?

[Guest LJS1993]

Ok, I'll bite (excuse the pun). What's with the food references in this thread?

 

 

This thread reminds me of the days when we had sheep on our ranch. Man those animals were plump, tender, and were excellent in stews, broth, even in a tortilla. Their meet was so tender it was insane. They were also the dumbest animals we had on the farm. Wild dogs decimated the herd so we finally gave them up. So I think you see where my opinions of sheep come from. Tearing off ears is wrong since basic humane behavior is appropriate, but at the same time sheep are sheep, they ARE livestock where I come from and are meant for producing wool and meat. So it's hard for someone from my background to have some passionate feelings for sheep.

[Laurae]

So it's hard for someone from my background to have some passionate feelings for sheep.

 

Yet another instance of a poster having absolutely nothing relevant to add, but posting just to see themselves onscreen ?

[Guest LJS1993]

Yet another instance of a poster having absolutely nothing relevant to add, but posting just to see themselves onscreen ?

 

Did you read the above response before typing? Or are you adding nothing to this topic by adding your cheap response?

[Laurae]

Did you read the above response before typing? Or are you adding nothing to this topic by adding your cheap response?

 

Oh I read it.

[Guest LJS1993]

Oh I read it.

 

 

Good, so you see my opinion on the sympathy's afforded the sheep and the brutality of the dogs. Or did you miss it? Do I need to make it more clear?

[Laurae]

Good, so you see my opinion on the sympathy's afforded the sheep and the brutality of the dogs. Or did you miss it? Do I need to make it more clear?

 

I think you often talk about things with which you are not familiar. Such as testing non-herding breeds on sheep.

[Carson Crazies]

Regardless of the intelligence (or sometimes seeming lack thereof to some folks) level of a certain animal, in my mind I'm responsible for caring for them to the best of my ability. Sheep don't get killed because they're stupid (many of them happen to be quite wily actually) but rather because they don't have a whole lot of defense mechanisms afforded to them by the natural course of things - particularly within captivity.

 

If my flock was being decimated I'd wonder if there was something I could do differently to provide safety for them... have I provided them with secure fencing and hotwire? Have I provided them with a guard dog? Not to say that predation doesn't happen even with the best of methods, but for me the whole "sheep are stupid and thus deserve what they've got coming to them" strikes a very ugly chord with me.

 

Good stockmanship is good stockmanship - no matter what the stock or the situation. I think yea even though they may be destined for meat or wool production it is my desire and responsibility to provide them with the best life possible while they're in my care.

 

And, to bring myself slightly back on topic: I think this same "who cares about the stock" sort of attitude leads to some of the treatment we see in some of these types of videos. I guess maybe the comments that spurred my response might not be as off topic as I originally thought.

[PSmitty]

This thread reminds me of the days when we had sheep on our ranch. Man those animals were plump, tender, and were excellent in stews, broth, even in a tortilla. Their meet was so tender it was insane. They were also the dumbest animals we had on the farm. Wild dogs decimated the herd so we finally gave them up. So I think you see where my opinions of sheep come from. Tearing off ears is wrong since basic humane behavior is appropriate, but at the same time sheep are sheep, they ARE livestock where I come from and are meant for producing wool and meat. So it's hard for someone from my background to have some passionate feelings for sheep.

 

OMG. You can't be serious.

[Cynthia P]

One of the things we do if we test dogs on our sheep is to put the sheep in a smaller pen that allows the dogs to be on the outside. If they can be somewhat in control and responsive on the outside we put them in a small round pen with very dog broke sheep. And the dog is on a long line;

 

I've seen border collies started that were lunatics and I've seen German shepherds and Rotties that were gentle and herded nicely. All herd differently.

 

It is important to work with someone that values livestock but can work with people and dogs to create the best learning situation.

 

one of the reasons we have not held a trial at our farm yet is that my husband is worried about the welfare of the sheep. We may start with an open only trial....not that wrecks don't happen there...just not as often.

 

Cynthia

[bcnewe2]

Good stockmanship is good stockmanship - no matter what the stock or the situation

 

Why would Ljs1993 even be posting at all on this thread? If you don't respect livestock how can you respect a livestock dog? How can you have an opinion on what is being done with the sheep in the clips that people are talking about without repsect for livestock.

 

IMO I really didn't see much abuse being done except maybe running the stock to a point of fighting the dog. Sad on both parts. Now the "trainer" is another matter. I saw things that could have been productive, instead the lady just stood there. Guess it's that 3 minute thing.

 

I personally don't think sheep are dumb, in fact I think they are quite smart in sheep matters. Some more than others but smart all the same.

Without respect for living animals you are not likely a very good farmer or livestock person. Where would you sell your dumb sheep? I'm sure they'd be looking pretty poor with that mind set. seems to me the meat would be tough with the tough treatmeant.

 

Are cattle any smarter? I don't see any cattle escaping from my neighbors pastures, my sheep are little houdini's. I say smart sheep require a smart dog and a smart handler. If you've ever been beaten by some tough, smart sheep on a trial field or even out in your own pasture, you'd know they aren't dumb!

 

Kristen

[PSmitty]

For those who would like to work the dog they have, and doesn't know much about stock, how do you go about finding a trainer? One who is willing to give you a chance, but also to tell you that your dog has no potential, and will protect their sheep appropriately during the time required for evaluation. Is it realistic to expect the newbie to know how to select a good trainer?

 

 

Sluj-I'd tell a newbie to go to trials and find people who work their dogs on stock, and talk to them. Find out who works their dogs with which trainers. Ask for recommendations. Go and observe some trainers or at least talk to them. Once observing, I think one would know good stockmanship when they see it, I'd say they definitely will know when it's not.

 

Will it be difficult to find one who is willing to give you a chance, particularly if you're working with a non traditional breed or a mix? Possibly. I know I saw one trainer who was willing to "test" us, but once she saw Jack, suddenly had no time for lessons, which was her nice way of saying "no thanks". I don't know for certain if it was Jack being a mix, or if she thought she didn't see enough potential in his little "instinct test". But, I did find a another trainer who is willing to work with us, and it's going very well. So, it's certainly worth a try.

[kelpiegirl]

Oh MAN- if my grandfather caught wind of this attitude.... DEEEEEP TROUBLE. I think your insolence is crystal clear.

 

Good, so you see my opinion on the sympathy's afforded the sheep and the brutality of the dogs. Or did you miss it? Do I need to make it more clear?

[Lenajo]

Not to take the topic back to the original question or anything...but I think a lot of people get hung up on the AKC defination of breeds. a *lot* of breeds were multipurpose in the past, only AKC type attitudes has listed the terrier as only a hunter, the poodle as "non-sporting", etc. Very few people kept specialty dogs or breeds until the past century.

 

We had a farm and livestock long before we had Border Collies, and the best dog we had as a cross between a German Shepherd and a Standard Schnauzer. He was guard dog, herding dog, hog dog, varmint dog, and children's pet. You can see pictures of him now, or at least his "breed" and they are called Hairy Mouthed Heelers Was he less effective then, because he wasn't a "herding" breed as defined by a popular registry?

 

Perhaps that is where my affinity for the herding terrier types comes from. I've also seen a Samoyed with a darn nice outrun....

 

I've also seen 2 Border Collies that can more than past the AKC versions of hunt tests. Yet they aren't allowed, because they aren't "sporting group". Hmmmm....seems silly in reverse doesn't it? If its about the *work*, then it should be who can do it...period. Would a hunter depending on the results of his day to eat turn down a dog that could do the job because it was the AKC's defination of the "wrong" group?

 

The most important things I've learned from the internet and YouTube is that its a perfect opportunity to be taken out of context.

[Little Bo Boop]

This thread reminds me of the days when we had sheep on our ranch. Man those animals were plump, tender, and were excellent in stews, broth, even in a tortilla. Their meet was so tender it was insane. They were also the dumbest animals we had on the farm. Wild dogs decimated the herd so we finally gave them up. So I think you see where my opinions of sheep come from. Tearing off ears is wrong since basic humane behavior is appropriate, but at the same time sheep are sheep, they ARE livestock where I come from and are meant for producing wool and meat. So it's hard for someone from my background to have some passionate feelings for sheep.

 

 

 

Are you high? A troll... or just totally clueless I'm actually betting on all three. And I'd venture to guess that the sheep weren't the "the dumbest animals you had on the farm".