Testing non-herding breeds on sheep?

[Geoffrey]

For some reason it seems to be a popular idea that several of the non-herding breeds have herding skills? I've heard of herding Springer Spaniels, herding Standard Poodles....

 

I managed to find a video of a herding poodle on YouTube.:

 

I have very VERY little knowledge of herding, but is this what so called "Herding Instinct Tests" in the AKC are ?

 

My limited knowledge doesn't really allow me to comment much more on the video, but I do feel kind of sorry for the sheep.

[PSmitty]

I don't know what all is involved in an AKC instinct test, so I can't answer that one.

 

I'm just dumbfounded that anyone would take a poodle "herding". Umm, besides, she's just chasing the sheep around. I think most dogs could do that.

 

I'm sure the experts will have more for you. I'm just a wannabe.

[Rye]

Looks more like the dog is just chasing them around. LOL

 

Then again, I don't know zip about herding

[pammyd]

Yeah the owner was wondering about waving her big stick, the dog was having a blast not paying attention to her chasing sheep and every so often she would say 'well done'

 

Looked like she was happy when the dog split the sheep - but as far as I could see anyone could have split the sheep - there were 3 there - run at them and chances are 1 will go one way and 2 the other

 

Again not and expert! only used to watch one man and his dog when I was a kid

[berocca]

Like the others, Im no expert. But that doesn't look like herding to me. She has basically come out, chased the sheep around and every so often received praise for something unknown to me.

 

However, to answer your question- I have heard that Rottweilers are really good herders. Unfortunately they arent recognised as a herding breed and so cannot trial, at least in Australia.

[jdarling]

I like watching other breeds work, and seeing how the different styles are effective at doing certain things. But there are times when I feel bad for the sheep...

 

Bouvier on Sheep

 

 

 

Chihuahua Mix on Sheep

 

Jodi

[Jack & Co.]

Wow. It was exhausting watching that Chihuahua mix chase those sheep around the pen. It looked like a dust mop was after them!

[sea4th]

Do you notice how everyone in the background is chucking and immensly enjoying these displays of ----what's the word --- abuse?

[jdarling]

I just watched a bunch more "herding" videos ... and it makes my stomach turn. Saw terms like Foo Foo "learning to dance with the sheep," or Fee Fee "having fun with the sheep." Nothing burns me out faster than people's attitudes toward the sheep. It's as if the only reason the sheep exist is to entertain the dogs. I hate it.

 

Jodi

[Guest LJS1993]

I just watched a bunch more "herding" videos ... and it makes my stomach turn. Saw terms like Foo Foo "learning to dance with the sheep," or Fee Fee "having fun with the sheep." Nothing burns me out faster than people's attitudes toward the sheep. It's as if the only reason the sheep exist is to entertain the dogs. I hate it.

 

Jodi

 

 

True, I did have some good lamb chops the other night in addition with that nice wool sweater in my closet. So yes, they have numerous functions besides being herded.

[sandra s.]

I'm sure it doesn't take many rounds of this type of "game":

 

 

...before the sheep decide that their "protector" isn't doing much for them and go back to being un-dog-broke or however you'd call it (assuming they were newbie-training sheep to begin with)!

[kelpiegirl]

The "trainer" in this video, and I think the Bouvier has no business working dogs on sheep, or this person is just really really looking to mistreat her sheep. The Belgian was worse. Um, how about stopping the circling, and MOVING around????????? That dog took a good hit, and it was ALL the "trainer's" fault. I have seen many MANY dogs started, and this is not the way to introduce dogs to sheep. As for abuse, I didn't see anything that rises to the level of abuse, harrassment, yes, but in terms of abuse, I think of gripping and BAD grips, and the worst I have seen are from real sheepdogs. I think it takes someone with knowledge, and respect for sheep to handle dogs on sheep, none of this - "let's let Fido circle endlessly and once we think he's dizzy, stand in front of the sheep, and then let the sheep go in a corner, and REALLY worry them".

YUCK.

 

I'm sure it doesn't take many rounds of this type of "game":

...before the sheep decide that their "protector" isn't doing much for them and go back to being un-dog-broke or however you'd call it (assuming they were newbie-training sheep to begin with)!

[Lenajo]

Actually the poodle, like a lot of breeds, has some utilitarian background that can include herding genetics.

 

YouTube blows my dial up's mind, and I can't download it at work so I will have to asnwer the question based on my own experience.

 

I've had 2 very nice poodles, including a mini who later suprised the heck out of a big hat with it's ability, in my classes. They aren't Border Collies, but they were certainly capable on dog accustomed farm stock, demonstrating balance and control. It takes longer to train them because some things aren't as natural as a BC with generations of single minded working breeding, but if the owner wants to take the time they can be useful.

 

AHBA allows Poodles in their herding competitions. AKC is considering it I'm told. If the owners of the poodles I've seen choose to make the effort they are capable of USBCHA type Novice for sure. ProNovice? perhaps. Depends on the level of difficulty of the course.

 

I've also worked with a Kerry Blue Terrier that is used to manage a flock of over 300. He is most certainly useful, and his owner would never tolerate abuse of her expensive and rare breed livestock. He has an ironclad stop and flanks...admirably ironclad stops compared to many young dogs I've seen of a lot of breeds, including BC!

 

Regardless, it is not everyone's choice to own a collie, and you can still do capable stockwork with something different. The presence, or tolerance, of abuse is the human in charge's decision. It is not the fault of the dog or the breed. When you see such as described in those videos it would be wise to quote a few times "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners". Poor sheep. Bad people!

[Lenajo]

ok, I got somebody to help me view the youtube poodle video. Couldn't stand being left out.

 

My question is - if that was a BC pup, would you have the same comments?

 

I see dogbroken sheep being circled both ways with sustained interested, evidence of basic balancing skills, one minor and one major split off episode that were resolved, and then a dog willing to stop and be caught. The dog was a little mouthy, but not vicious.

 

Had that been a BC pup, it would have been voted a successful first session.

 

Whether or not this dog has potential to go further can only be seen with time. The likelihood is less because it's breeding was not for this. But as with any dog, of any breed, the only way to know is actually get out there and try. If the owner is willing, and the sheep are not being hurt (they are not - and if you think they are you haven't seen many Border Collies start herding), and the opportunity exists....why not try? I daresay that's how a lot of the board members ended up with a working dog for a pet....then worked the dog....then bought the farm...then another dog.

[2 Devils]

OK I guess I will way in...

 

My acd was a herding dropout. I tried her too late in life. My bx/mix at the time was a herding dropout mainly because I did not want to deal with trying to get her to let go of the sheeps ears. She thought it was lunch time. I refused to allow that. My toy poodle actually showed some "instinct". He actually has a very nice outrun and was able to take sheep off the fence, keep them grouped and walk them to me. I am very very green when it comes to herding but Aspen did well considering... he will also grip. I only took him a couple times (along with the others) but I would say that even though he has some "instinct" he is not a herder per se. I can see where some other breeds could have some instinct and could be taught to herd but it would definitely be much different than a bc or other known herding breed.

 

And yes way back when poodles were more than just "pretty" dogs. They were used for herding, hunting, some standards for guarding, etc... There was a time poodles were well rounded.

[kelpiegirl]

Here is a page on field working standard poodles

 

http://myworkingstandardpoodles.homestead....Field_Work.html

[PSmitty]

Well, I stand corrected (as usual). I had no idea that poodles were/could be herding dogs. Interesting.

 

I saw a wheaton terrier "working" sheep once. I felt sorry for the sheep, as she was truly only into chasing them and hanging off their butts by her teeth.

[kelpiegirl]

Again- what IS the trainer doing???????? Why on earth would they allow that. I once saw a standard Schnauzer in with ducks, if it weren't for some quick reaction, that duck was done, not cool.

 

 

Well, I stand corrected (as usual). I had no idea that poodles were/could be herding dogs. Interesting.

 

I saw a wheaton terrier "working" sheep once. I felt sorry for the sheep, as she was truly only into chasing them and hanging off their butts by her teeth.

[PSmitty]

Julie, it was one of those "instinct test" types of things. The trainer was there, protecting her sheep, they were ok, even though I felt for them. The dog was corrected and moved back off. I know that she actually came back for a few lessons, so things probably got better, but I didn't see beyond the first time.

[kelpiegirl]

Yeah, that's what was happening with the duck too. I know that if I were putting all sorts of dogs on my sheep, it would be done in a very methodical and careful way, and I would allow the dog to move freely, but the dog would not be able to damage the sheep. Why would anyone want to work a terrier on sheep? It is all AKC trying to get people to invest in the VERSATILITY titles- crap. Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

Julie, it was one of those "instinct test" types of things. The trainer was there, protecting her sheep, they were ok, even though I felt for them. The dog was corrected and moved back off. I know that she actually came back for a few lessons, so things probably got better, but I didn't see beyond the first time.

[jdarling]

The presence, or tolerance, of abuse is the human in charge's decision.

 

This is very true.

 

When you compete in, work at, or put on AHBA or ASCA trials, you get to see a lot of other breeds work. Mind you, by the time they are at the trial level, the handler presumably has some control on the dog by then, so I normally don't see the first exposure. I've seen some nice dogs work -- Poodles, Rotties, ACDs, Aussies, Corgis, Bouvs, Tervs, etc. However, I have never seen an "instinct test" quite like this one.

 

 

The description says:

 

"My sister's Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Zeros, during a herding demonstration at the AKC/Eukanuba National Championship Dog Show in Long Beach. She was being tested to see if she would exhibit any of her herding instinct (the dog, not my sister)."

 

Jodi

[Lenajo]

Why would anyone want to work a terrier on sheep? It is all AKC trying to get people to invest in the VERSATILITY titles- crap. Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions here.

 

Most people want to work the dog they have, and if they went out and bought another breed "just to do <xyz>" they'd be bashed as well. So they can't win can they....

 

The Kerry I referred to is a working farm dog whom I met when the owner was at a herding test simply because she got talked into it by others who wanted her to formally compete with what they considered a superb example of a well trained terrier. I enjoyed working with him immensely, and if that was a breed I wanted to live with a dog of such ability would be fun to have.

 

It comes down to "what you want to live with". If a person wants to keep Poodles and sheep, and they are willing to put forth the effort to train the dogs to be useful....well, more power to them.

 

I hope the owner does continue to trial him, because he's lovely, and because it gets other people interested in training their dogs to be useful.

 

As for YouTube, you can apparently find examples of the weird, the unbelievable, and the off the wall for all breeds of dog and types of herding. I'm glad the videos are hard to see for me, because I get the second hand version from my students and that's by far more than enough to stomach.

 

Some of the worst treatment of sheep I've seen on video (non-Youtube) is of people who viewed the sheep as livestock only and trained only Border Collies. Again, it's about the human, not the dog or the breed.

[kelpiegirl]

Um, what was the dog supposed to do to show instinct? Dig or jump it's way in? The sheep were not moving, the dog could not get to them whatsoever. What an exercise in futility.

 

 

This is very true.

 

When you compete in, work at, or put on AHBA or ASCA trials, you get to see a lot of other breeds work. Mind you, by the time they are at the trial level, the handler presumably has some control on the dog by then, so I normally don't see the first exposure. I've seen some nice dogs work -- Poodles, Rotties, ACDs, Aussies, Corgis, Bouvs, Tervs, etc. However, I have never seen an "instinct test" quite like this one.

 

 

The description says:

 

"My sister's Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Zeros, during a herding demonstration at the AKC/Eukanuba National Championship Dog Show in Long Beach. She was being tested to see if she would exhibit any of her herding instinct (the dog, not my sister)."

 

Jodi

[kelpiegirl]

My point is that terriers were not bred to work sheep- at least I that is what I thought. Sure, I could take my Boxer out there, and see what he would do, but that really isn't more than a whim. Perhaps since the KB terrier does have apparently, some history in herding sheep, this dog may do well... To each his own.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions here.

 

Most people want to work the dog they have, and if they went out and bought another breed "just to do <xyz>" they'd be bashed as well. So they can't win can they....

 

The Kerry I referred to is a working farm dog whom I met when the owner was at a herding test simply because she got talked into it by others who wanted her to formally compete with what they considered a superb example of a well trained terrier. I enjoyed working with him immensely, and if that was a breed I wanted to live with a dog of such ability would be fun to have.

 

It comes down to "what you want to live with". If a person wants to keep Poodles and sheep, and they are willing to put forth the effort to train the dogs to be useful....well, more power to them.

 

I hope the owner does continue to trial him, because he's lovely, and because it gets other people interested in training their dogs to be useful.

 

As for YouTube, you can apparently find examples of the weird, the unbelievable, and the off the wall for all breeds of dog and types of herding. I'm glad the videos are hard to see for me, because I get the second hand version from my students and that's by far more than enough to stomach.

 

Some of the worst treatment of sheep I've seen on video (non-Youtube) is of people who viewed the sheep as livestock only and trained only Border Collies. Again, it's about the human, not the dog or the breed.

[PSmitty]

Julie, the Wheaton was a stockdog somewhere back in it's heritage, that's why the one I saw was tested. Who knows? She must've done ok for the trainer to continue with lessons. As far as I know, she quit when the weather got too hot, not because of any other reason. My comments were based soley on her initial test, which was rough, I have to say.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to add that I appreciated Lenajo's asking if the dog in the poodle video had a been a BC, would it have been viewed differently. I went back and watched it again with that thought in mind, and I see her point.

 

I realize I shouldn't be so judgemental about people wanting to work non-traditional herding breeds, since I also understand "working with what you've got". I'm sure lots of people might wonder why I bother with my mix, and I would hate that, so I shouldn't be the same way about poodles.

 

(this is me becoming enlightened!)