Difficult Dog

[urbanfarms]

Hi all, I'm new to this and to herding, so I would appreciate your patience with me and advice!!!

I bought my hubby a male BC almost 2 years ago. We have a dairy farm and are trying to teach him to bring the cattle down from the pasture and into the barn. He is very obedient in the barn and in the yard, but out in the pasture if you call him or try to direct him he will just run off and go back to the barn. It's as if he's all for moving cattle when he can do it his way, but if you try to gain some control he will stop all together. I tried a long line, but he won't leave your side when he's attached to anything.

 

Also he grips terribly. But again, if he can't do it his way he won't do it at all.

I just don't know, because he only does this when working cattle. Otherwise he is very good.

Thanks to anybody who has time to respond!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Warning: I'm a big time novice. But, it strikes me that you might be asking for the whole tamale, right from the get-go?

 

Most of us train our dogs to do tasks by breaking the task down into smaller pieces at first. So, first I'd teach my dog to mind me when the stock aren't really trying to go anywhere, in a smaller area when they are calm. A lot of people use young stock, or something like goats or sheep to train a youngster at first.

 

Then when the dog knows to mind me, I can introduce things that are a little harder - bigger area, stock that is a little harder to work.

 

It would be really great if you could get the help of someone who is experienced working dogs, in your area, but I know that's not always possible.

 

Good luck! I feel your pain - I worked for a long time trying to train my first dog on my own. I went to a couple clinics and sort of learned what I was doing wrong, but nothing beats having someone to look over your shoulder all the way along.

[Sue R]

Welcome, especially to another person with cows, although ours are beef. We have lots of "sheep people" here but few "cow folks".

 

Another novice alert!!! I must agree with Rebecca. She and I share a lot in common in that we've tried to do some things on our own with intermittent instruction, and found it to be quite difficult for some of us to make progress with our dogs that way.

 

Number 1 - Get some assistance from a capable and competent mentor/instructor. If you let us know where you are located, perhaps someone here could give you some names to contact.

 

To me, there are a couple of issues. Your dog may or may not have been the product of a "good" working dog breeding. If well bred, your dog may still not possess the talents of his parents, or may be better than either of them. So, it is hard without an experienced person seeing the dog, to determine if the dog has "what it takes" to be a good stockdog.

 

Since your needs seem fairly simple, at least at this point, comprising an outrun, lift, and fetch (which are the trademarks of the working Border Collie), even if your dog is not a world-beater (in eyes other than yours - and we all feel that way to some extent about our dogs), he still may be very capable of learning and carrying out the job you need done. I know that's the case with mine.

 

Since dairy cows are often ready to come in at chore time, this may make the dog's job that much easier. If they are reluctant for some reason (weather, whatever) then they may present a bit more challenge but, being dairy cows, your dog will need to be able to handle them with an absolute minimum of stress and uncontrolled gripping has great potential for disaster.

 

Your dog is obedient and confident (it appears) when close to you but not at a distance. That says to me that you need to work on training "closer up" before you progress "further out". While instinct is bred into well-bred dogs, it takes training and channeling to make the most of it. The dogs don't come "just add batteries". Rather, they are "some assembly required". For now, you may have to out to the pasture with your dog and shorten the distance. This is something I have to work on also as I am not always wanting to take the long walk to get my dog and myself closer to the stock so that I can work better with him.

 

It also sounds like he is not prepared to "take a correction". Top trainers will often say that a dog needs just a few basics before beginning on stock - knowing his name, knowing the recall (come back to the handler), and being able to take a correction (respecting the handler). A dog that can take a correction can be reprimanded or corrected for doing something "wrong" (something he shouldn't do or just something he did incorrectly) and won't sulk or run off.

 

You can work on this anywhere - in the house, on a walk, etc. Let the dog learn that a correction is just simply letting him know he is wrong, allowing him to figure out what you want and making a choice, and then being allowed to continue if he is correct, or being corrected again if he is wrong. Sort of like, lather, rinse, repeat, if you get my drift.

 

Many people mistake a dog that grips for a strong or powerful dog. The opposite is more likely. A dog that grips inappropriately (especially diving and gripping, or "dirty" gripping to the side or anyplace but the nose or hind leg when needed) is often doing it out of fear. A powerful dog rarely needs to grip as he has presence and a calm confidence that stock perceive. He knows he can grip and when he should grip, and doesn't grip unnecessarily.

 

I'm not saying all this because I know a lot - I've just made (and still make) many mistakes. I think that beginning training with your dog is the most critical time - it is when you lay the foundations so to speak, and a good beginning (or going back and correcting mistakes made in the beginning) is essential. I can easily see that with my struggles with myself and my own dogs. I'm hoping some of what I am trying to put into action with my work with my dogs and stock can be helpful to you and your dog.

 

Best wishes!

[bcnewe2]

Many people mistake a dog that grips for a strong or powerful dog. The opposite is more likely. A dog that grips inappropriately (especially diving and gripping, or "dirty" gripping to the side or anyplace but the nose or hind leg when needed) is often doing it out of fear. A powerful dog rarely needs to grip as he has presence and a calm confidence that stock perceive. He knows he can grip and when he should grip, and doesn't grip unnecessarily.

 

Also a dog that's taking alot of training pressure, and what seems to be a lot or a little to you is not always the same to the dog, will end up taking cheapshots on the stock to blow off the pressure it's building in his brain.

 

I've found if I get my dog in over it's head and then push on them it's a sure fire method of getting the dog to dive in and grip. Not the kind of grip you want to be training but if not careful it's exactly what is done.

 

I agree with Sue and Becca, baby steps is the way to go. feet or inches is way better than miles for a beginner dog and handler.

 

Good luck

Kristen

[kimkathan]

I agree with the gripping. I know when I started my girl sheep, it was definatly the pressure, first from me asking too much from her that she had NO idea what to do, and secondly from feeling that she had exhausted all the tricks from her bag to stop/move them so this was her final atttempt.

 

I work her on a large herd of dairy cattle at my cousins place. They have a few dogs, but none with formal training. This seems to be the case with many dairy people. The dogs learn the routein (around here it is mostly driving the cows up the allies, into another pen, into the parlor, ect. However, when it comes to getting around to the head of a bounch of spring heffiers, they just run behind, or off to the side with no idea of what to do, and will grip. This is where WE come in!!! Just by starting small, working on balance and circling the stock (she works everything, ducks, sheep, goats, pigs and cattle and anything in between) she will get to the heads and turn them. There are times that it's not always pretty, but she gets the jobs done. My first recommendations is to "mix things up" around the barn. Don't always ask for the same thing in the same order. Start to work as a team, and get your dog to look to you as to what you want (not litterally mind you, but that's a whole nother problem) With the long line, walk with him and encourage him along, when he starts to take interest in moving toward the stock, praise him. Like everyone has said before it sounds like your asking him to to take too big of a leap in his confidence. It's like learning to swim in an above ground pool where you can touch, and then being expected to go out and swim the English Channel. Not that it's impossible, but there's alot of ground to cover in between. Start small, like in the barn, then move up to something like a feedlot (a bit longer distance) when he feels comfertable, gradually increase the distance, walk out to gather up the cows with him, ect. If he starts to look like he's getting sour, or wanting to turn off, coax him on, try to make a big deal out of it.

[NRhodes]

Hello, where are you located? I'm another dairy person and use my dogs for about everything. The other posters have answered your question pretty well. The mistake a lot of farmers make when they've got a dog they want to do a specific task is take that dog out to 'work' before they take it out to 'train'. You can't train a dog by just taking it out there and expecting it to figure it out. You need to set you up a pen with some smallish calves (250/300# are easy to start on) and get your dog going around and fetching them to you. Teach it a send command, a recall, and a down. (Teach down away/out of sight of stock first) Those are the most basic things you need, from there you can add as many or as few commands as you want.

 

The other big mistake that farmers make is they let the dog run loose on the farm- a dog running loose doing it's own thing is not going to want to do your thing when you want it to work. If it gets to hang around the barn and feels comfortable there then any time you put pressure on the dog or ask it to do something it doesn't want to it's going to run right back there to it's comfort zone. Kennel that sucker. Get the dog out when you take it to train or take it to work or if you're going to have the dog right there beside you (not just in your general area but WITH you). Pretty soon the dog figures out that fun is doing your thing and that he doesn't have any fun on his own.

 

If you're not too far away I could come out and help you get started or you could come here- I've got pens and fields set up I train in.

 

-Nicole

[urbanfarms]

Thanks to everybody with all the support and advice! I have tried to find help for so long and most people snub me. It's so great to find people willing to help!

 

I live in Sunburg, MN. Which is about 20 miles north of Willmar, MN.

I really see how a lot of the suggestions can pertain to Bandit. See, I bought the dog for my hubby and he has been doing exactly what you said most farmers do. Despite my arguing against it, he thought it was the best way. Finally he has relinquished some control over his training to me after nearly 2 years of this behavior.

We still live about a mile away from the farm site, because the older couple that are selling it want to continue to live there. So he is kenneled at home, which makes him listen better I would imagine. But, at the farm he can roam free, in which he acts the opposite. I also see how we just are expecting too much from him without him really understanding what to do. I can see how my hubby's training "methods" can cause him frustration. I am always telling him to stop yelling at that dog because he is only confusing him more.

We do have some calf pens, but I would also appreciate some names if anyone has any contacts, I really could use someone to be able to see what he does. Also, names of good training books would be great too.

 

One more thing, I got my own BC and take her along with me to the farm when I ride horse, do chores, ect. I didn't plan to work her with cattle, but at around a year of age she has shown a lot of interest and some natural talent too. I decided to give her a try and started her on a long line in baby steps. She also is gripping excessively. My question in this, is using a tug on the line when she goes for the grip a way to break her of that? I have been trying to teach her to grip by command by saying the word and encouraging her. She mostly does this and seems to be learning. But I worry about confusing her on correcting her gripping with the line when she goes for it without the command. She is otherwise coming along pretty well and takes corrections and redirections very well.

Thanks again!

[urbanfarms]

I'm sorry, where are my manners....

My name is Shannon, by the way.

Thanks again to everybody.

[Sue R]

Just by the way, Nicole, did I meet you at the Elvin Kopp clinic in Ohio last spring? I've been there to several of Gary clinics in the past as well.

 

Shannon - I am also a novice but I do think it is not uncommon for young/untrained dogs to be a bit grippy. They have a combination of inexperience, not knowing how to do things, and some reasonable fear that can contribute to it. Since I haven't had a real problem with that issue, I can't begin to comment helpfully other than to say that many trainers do not seem to really get after a youngster for a reasonable (not "dirty", not sides, not hanging on, but rather nose or heels hopefully) grip, but rather use a voice correction to let the dog know that it wasn't desired at that time and in that situation.

 

To come down too heavy on a youngster for gripping can take the grip out of a dog that may need it later on or just rachet up the anxiety levels.

 

If you don't have a competent or willing trainer nearby (you might check www.littlehats.net for their trainer list), try to get to a trial in your area and maybe volunteer, and meet some folks who could possibly put you in touch with someone who can help. Another alternative is a clinic. Derek Scrimgeour gives a clinic in WI usually every spring if I remember correctly.

 

A good start with a good trainer is worth it's weight in gold because it gives you a solid foundation. A lot of folks who might be able to help you here may be tied up a bit for the next few weeks as the National Finals are next week and the week after.

[NRhodes]

Hey Sue, yep, that'd be me. I really liked Elvin's clinic and this time I'm signed up with a dog. I've also reserved a spot in Gary's clinic in November. You coming to either of them?

 

Shannon, I wouldn't worry over much about gripping. When she does it, like Sue said don't punish her, give your bite command then a 'get out' or 'get back' whatever you want to use along with body language to push her out. If she doesn't get out then correct her and put more pressure on, walk toward her, whatever you need, when she goes out praise her and back away (relieving pressure on her) letting her fetch the calves. One thing that will cause a dog to grip is being in too close to stock, being too close can be from excitement and inexperience and from the size of your pen not allowing her out to a comfortable distance- Get her out off the stock where she can move them without feeling like she needs to grip and that might help.

 

I'm sure there's people in MN who can help you out, just look around a little bit, you might can find someone on this board. I've read a few books but by far I've found the most helpful thing (besides going to a clinic!) are videos- Gary Ericsson has some great ones, http://www.garyericssoncowdogs.com Get From Puppy to Finished Dog to start with, it's a long video but well worth it. One of the things I really like about Gary's videos is he shows you all different levels of dogs- from those really on fire to work to biscuit eaters and everything in between, he does a lot of troubleshooting throughout. I have most of his videos. Another one is Charlie Trayer's video http://trayerscowdogs.com/ he uses the same methods as Gary, his video is straight and to the point- he goes pretty quick through his methods for starting a dog and putting basic useful commands on them, is geared toward farmers and ranchers who don't want a lot of fancy commands on their dogs, and is less overwhelming than Gary's video. But, like I said, Gary covers a lot more stuff but be prepared to watch and rewatch.

[Sue R]

I'll be at Elvin's with one or two dogs but not at Gary's. See you then.

[Lenajo]

For cattle work you can't beat Elvin Kopp.

 

Is Ericsson still using mostly electronic "shock" collars? If he is, I would find it difficult to recommend him.

[NRhodes]

Sue, speaking of cow dog stuff, you said there aren't many cattle people here- have you checked out www.miklescowdogs.net/forum ? It's almost all cow dog people.

 

 

Lenajo, I don't know about using mostly shock collars but he does use them. So do I. They can be a very useful tool for certain things and when used correctly. As with any method of training, if your timing isn't right you're going to screw things up. I don't recall whether he gives examples of using a shock collar in the 'Puppy to Finished Dog' video but he does have another video that shows in detail different ways to use the collar. Now some of the stuff in that video I didn't much care for, not so much Gary but the guy from Tritronics he had demoing stuff, I didn't like how he used it. The things that that man did could have been taught simpler, I thought, without the collar. I use it generally when it comes to the point that the dog knows something (example: that'll do) and chooses to ignore the command in some instances, instead of trying to run around and block and catch the dog, or continuing to give the command after the dog has ignored it (teaching the dog to ignore the command!) I'll give them a little jolt. It's no different than having a long line on the dog and giving it a jerk when the dog ignores you, you can give a little tug or you can yank them off their feet, it's all in how you use it. Back to using Gary's techniques- it's like anything else, you use what you like, don't use what you don't, and always learn from all of it.

[Lenajo]

There really is no place for an electronic collar, ie. shock collar, in training a Border Collie to work stock. It defies everything this breed is, and encourages the raising/training/breeding of dogs that cannot be trained by the average person who cannot/will-not use such a thing.

 

They've even done a survey a while back of top stockdog/Border Collies trainers for WBC magazine, and all of them agreed that they see no use for it. In fact, most saw only refugees from it.

 

If you are talking about HT Cowdogs, they were bred to be trained that way - and to each their own if they want to work that way, with that breed. They aren't Border Collies.

 

There are some cowdog people on the boards, yes, but you won't find many shock collar fans. It has some uses I agree, but none in teaching dogs to work.

[NRhodes]

There really is no place for an electronic collar, ie. shock collar, in training a Border Collie to work stock. It defies everything this breed is, and encourages the raising/training/breeding of dogs that cannot be trained by the average person who cannot/will-not use such a thing.

 

They've even done a survey a while back of top stockdog/Border Collies trainers for WBC magazine, and all of them agreed that they see no use for it. In fact, most saw only refugees from it.

 

If you are talking about HT Cowdogs, they were bred to be trained that way - and to each their own if they want to work that way, with that breed. They aren't Border Collies.

 

There are some cowdog people on the boards, yes, but you won't find many shock collar fans. It has some uses I agree, but none in teaching dogs to work.

 

How does it defy what the breed is or encourage dogs that can only be trained with a shock collar? I don't see the logic.

 

Any training tool and technique is only as good as the person using it. There are lots of different methods and tools used to train working dogs of all breeds. I can't say that one method is better than another, and every dog is different, so why be limited to one thing.

 

How is the HTC a dog bred to be trained 'that way'? Which way? The HTC was bred to be a very trainable, mentally tough dog, that could be used by the average rancher to move cattle.

 

I will agree with your last sentence completely: "It has some uses I agree, but none in teaching dogs to work." Exactly. You can't TEACH a dog to work, it either has the instinct to do it or it doesn't. You teach a dog to work for you.

[Sue R]

Gary does advocate the electronic collar on many dogs. I would not use one on mine for sure, and I've seen dogs that were trained with them that do much better with a different method, in my opinion.

[Lenajo]

How does it change what is bred on? easy to explain. First lets look at hunting labs.

 

In the UK, hunting Labs and gundogs in general are trained without shock collars (in fact, I believe they are now illegal) The dogs that are too hard, too pushy, and too <insert your training problem here> to train without such don't get trained. What doesn't get trained, doesn't hunt and/or compete, and doesn't get used for breeding more hunting dogs. Dogs that respond to normal human methods - praise, direct correction (not "out of the blue" shocks from above), and *general training using their instinctive work* get bred on.

 

UK hunting Labs are known for their easy training - the dog any average hunter can make something out of.

 

In the US, hunting Labs are trained almost universally with shock collars. Dogs that can't take these methods are screened out (removing softer, gentler dogs that need motivation...i.e. carrots, not sticks). Dogs that are very body hard, don't care about what happens to them if they get to work, those dogs hunt and/or compete and get bred on.

 

US hunting Labs are known to be the hard bodied, hard minded, "tanks" that *can't* be trained without shock collars and force. It is now ****accepted**** that this is normal, and if you doubt that look at any hunting magazine or hunting supply store.

 

Changing this to Working Border Collies. Generations of these dogs were trained for stockwork simply by working them and a combination of the praise they want (being allowed to work) and moderate, reasonable discipline - tone, pressure, and an occassional scruffing. The dogs that required more (and what real shepherd is going have $$ to spend on a shock collar, even if one existed back then ) didn't turn out and were culled from the genepool. The result was the most trainable and stock savvy dog on the planet.

 

Change the training, change the breed...and will it be what you want? Will they be like HT Cowdog pups, advertised with a discounted shock collar with each bought? If you breed working dogs that are too hard, too obnoxious to be trained without electricity, what will the pups be like? What about the dogs that are softer to correction, but brilliant workers - will you learn to be a better handler/trainer and use those dogs to advantage, or will they be culled because they can't take the harsher methods? Of course their pups could have tempered those hard heads......will we be sorry we culled them?

 

The electric collar also gives the handler the disadvantage of always being in place to correct. I shudder how many times I would have corrected if I used one, and then have missed that the dog was dead on right, and I...shudder the thought , was dead wrong! Do you want a stockdog that thinks? or a furry robot that does what it's told?

 

It seems a downhill slide.

 

The other issue, the one very aptly discussed by Bruce Fogt in his book on training stockdogs was that an intelligent breed like this can't handle corrections that come "out of the blue" (my quotes). It makes them nervous and affects the quality of their work.

 

I'm sure there will always be people seeking a shortcut in training. A way to "get that d**n dog" when he "just won't listen". They'd become better trainers if they'd stop and figure out why the dog isn't listening, and either get a better dog, manage the situation better, or become a better trainer.

 

Or option #4 - make a new breed that suits how you insist on training. That's a long hard road, but if it suits the texture of your training it's a good place to go.

 

That'll do.

[juliepoudrier]

Nice post Lenajo.

 

J.

[NRhodes]

I think Lenajo, the problem is with the way that you seem to think the collar should be used. Corrections that "come out of the blue" are not going to help the dog any. In fact, I wouldn't call that a 'correction' I'd call that punishment. I'll quote you: "A way to "get that d**n dog" when he "just won't listen"." That's not correction. That's punishment. That's the same thing as running a dog down and stomping it's guts. What did you accomplish? Nothing. If there's no association the dog hasn't been taught anything. It is not a "short cut" as you referred to it as, it's just another tool- like body language, like a rope, like a stock stick.

 

I've not seen a HTC pup advertised with a shock collar. I've also not seen, as you said in a previous post, it said anywhere that a shock collar was needed to train them. Care to show me? I have seen and heard it said in a variety of places that the dogs were bred to be trainable. Part of the idea behind the HTC is that they can stand up to use/abuse and lack of training by the average rancher/farmer who doesn't care to learn or have time to put a bunch of commands on a dog but needs a dog that can be independent, hold up and move tough cattle. They don't care whether the dog can be told to go to a given side or flanked this way or that. They want to be able to send the dog, have it hold and bring the cattle, and be able to call the dog off. As long as the dog gets there they don't care which way it goes. I've found my HTCs to be extremely smart, very trainable, eager to please dogs.

 

The other thing I really like about the HTC is that the registry is a working registry. The dogs have to meet certain requirements to be registered- to get papers they have to show they can bite head and heels on cattle, be short or slick haired, docked tail, and be out of two registered parents. This way you have a pretty good guarantee that if you buy a HTC pup out of registered parents that you're going to be getting a pup that'll work stock. This is the reason that when I went looking for a new dog I ended up with a HTC and not some other breed.

 

When I started my search for a new dog I had no idea there were herding trials, or very many people who worked stock with dogs, around here you probably won't find a dog on a farm that does anything but lay in the yard. I used to have an ACD, he came from an Amish man I met at an auction, and like the average farm person I had only a few commands on my dog- sic 'em, get around, and come here. When I went looking for a new dog I went to the Amish and called numbers from ads in papers. My only requirement? That the dog would work cattle. I was very dissatisfied with what I found in my first searches. I knew I didn't want a border collie, there's lots of so called BCs on farms around here and I'd yet to meet one who wasn't a useless layabout, inclined to bite people (I've been bit by several!) or neurotically chase balls or run in circles. Then I got on the internet looking. I learned a lot in short order! Now I had a pretty good idea why I was having trouble finding a good dog and why the BCs I knew weren't really BCs (AKC). I posted a want ad on a message board, I got only one reply- from a man who had a dairy farm and who used HTCs. He invited me to travel to Ohio to a Gary Ericsson clinic and see the dogs work. At first I didn't want to travel that far but I eventually decided otherwise and am very glad I did! There were a lot of great HTCs there, I was very impressed with the way they worked, how tough they were but very biddable. I met a lot of wonderful, friendly, and helpful people who I look forward to seeing again (Hi Sue!) Gary was a great clinician, entertaining and informative, I learned so much and really enjoyed myself. I ended up buying a female HTC from him. I made a trip to Oklahoma in June, visited with Gary and his wife who are gracious hosts, discussed dogs and training methods, read his collection of training books, Melvin Cyphers (who has some real nice HTCs) came down and hung out, they told some great stories, then I drove to Kansas and visited Charlie Trayer and got to see his dogs. In October I'm making another trip to Oklahoma to meet up with some more people at a get together and dog working fun day they're hosting.

 

Which brings me back around to how this subject of shock collars came up. I wouldn't discount a trainer or not recommend them to someone because I disagreed with one or two of their methods. I might mention what I didn't like but I'll also mention what I did like. Everyone has something to teach. Some things are not for everyone. Have you watched Gary's video that I suggested to the original poster, 'Puppy to Finished Dog'? Does he tell everyone to use shock collars on their dogs? No. It's a very handy video for a beginner to watch, with lots of information about how to start a dog as well as diagrams and explanations of all the different commands a person might want to teach a dog. I still recommend it.

[Lenajo]

It was Gary's own ads at the time that sold the TriTonics with the pups, and it was in his videos as well.

 

I've not only watched Gary, I've worked with him, and I saw nothing particularily special and a lot that ruins dogs. I watched his own "top dog" which he's bred tons refused to work until he got out the shock collar and made it. Then he laughed and joked about how collar savvy the dog was. This was not secret, gossip, or hear-say, he did this in *front of the entire clinic and in front of me*.

 

I've also watched Gary's videos (granted a few years ago) show how to shock, and shock, and shock...a puppy with it's rope run through the back of the crate so it couldnt get away. He was teaching "load up". The puppy was wailing and bucking in fear. Great trainer...<saracasm intended> We all discussed the video (another clinic, just not Gary's) and worried what would happen to stockdogs if PETA got ahold of that one.

 

I hope he's improved, but I don't hear it from what you descibe.

 

I don't stomp my dogs, I don't have need too. Accusing me of supposed abuse to deflect the converation about the known abuse of dogs in the name of training is pointless.

 

Furthermore, this is a BORDER COLLIE board. If you want to train Catahoula Aussie BC mixes on cattle with electric shock go for it. Until then, please if you don't feel like considering my advice listen to the tons of expects out there who train, successfully, multiple BCs a year for a variety of stockwork. They don't, they won't , use the shock collar. Maybe they're on to something. After all, the breeds foundation didn't need to be abused to be trained.

[Eileen Stein]

I think Lenajo, the problem is with the way that you seem to think the collar should be used. Corrections that "come out of the blue" are not going to help the dog any. In fact, I wouldn't call that a 'correction' . . . . If there's no association the dog hasn't been taught anything. It is not a "short cut" as you referred to it as, it's just another tool- like body language, like a rope, like a stock stick.

 

But the shock does "come out of the blue" in a way that a correction from body language, a rope or a stick does not. The dog understands why his movement was checked by the rope and who checked it, and why he was blocked by the stock stick and who blocked him. But the shock to his neck comes out of the blue. He doesn't understand it, and a sensitive dog -- the kind of dog that has the capacity to be super responsive to his handler if the handler is willing to put in the time and miles to develop that -- can be ruined by it. The ones who get trained this way tend to be the harder, less flexible, less responsive dogs, and selecting for these dogs is indeed selecting against key border collie traits. And the more inexperienced a trainer is, the more damage s/he can do with an electronic collar IMO.

 

Shannon, I would suggest the video "Starting Your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep or Ducks" from Rural Route Videos. I've also heard that Mike Hubbard's "Training Your Dog for Cattle is very good, although I haven't seen it myself. I hope one of our MN members will chime in with a suggestion for a trainer you might be able to work with.

[kelpiegirl]

Sometimes you need to draw a line in the sand. If I had seen that video, that is the last time I would utter this gentleman's name- EVER. Abuse is abuse, and just because someone has a "name" doesn't mitigate inhumane treatment to animals. The old saying "If you have nothing nice to say...." applies.

 

It was Gary's own ads at the time that sold the TriTonics with the pups, and it was in his videos as well.

 

I've not only watched Gary, I've worked with him, and I saw nothing particularily special and a lot that ruins dogs. I watched his own "top dog" which he's bred tons refused to work until he got out the shock collar and made it. Then he laughed and joked about how collar savvy the dog was. This was not secret, gossip, or hear-say, he did this in *front of the entire clinic and in front of me*.

 

I've also watched Gary's videos (granted a few years ago) show how to shock, and shock, and shock...a puppy with it's rope run through the back of the crate so it couldnt get away. He was teaching "load up". The puppy was wailing and bucking in fear. Great trainer...<saracasm intended> We all discussed the video (another clinic, just not Gary's) and worried what would happen to stockdogs if PETA got ahold of that one.

 

I hope he's improved, but I don't hear it from what you descibe.

 

I don't stomp my dogs, I don't have need too. Accusing me of supposed abuse to deflect the converation about the known abuse of dogs in the name of training is pointless.

 

Furthermore, this is a BORDER COLLIE board. If you want to train Catahoula Aussie BC mixes on cattle with electric shock go for it. Until then, please if you don't feel like considering my advice listen to the tons of expects out there who train, successfully, multiple BCs a year for a variety of stockwork. They don't, they won't , use the shock collar. Maybe they're on to something. After all, the breeds foundation didn't need to be abused to be trained.

[SoloRiver]

An important point of difference, as well, is that with Border Collies we are working with dogs that, eventually, we are going to want to be able to work at quite a distance from the handler. Distance, of course, sets up the kind of situation in which a person would be most tempted to use a shock collar (and I will call them shock collars, because that is exactly what they are). It is a simple matter of learning theory (and I'm not talking specifically about dogs here, either -- learning in general) that if you shock a dog at a distance he is going to tend to associate that shock with whatever is near to him (i.e., the sheep he might have been about to grip) than something that is far from him (you).

 

I would probably use a shock collar if I wanted to train my Border Collie to fear sheep and attack them defensively. It does seem that this is the most common outcome of shock training with Border Collies.

 

I have a dog who is hard and less responsive when working than I would prefer. Knowing this dog as I do, and seeing how he has responded to electric shock in the past (from hitting a hot wire around a garden by accident), I would never in a million years use shock on this dog either. Border Collies are thoughtful dogs that seek and need to understand the environment around them; a shock from "out of the blue" that cannot be explained in any natural or social context is a deeply unsettling thing to a dog like this. When I train my dogs, I want them to learn and grow, not be totally freaked out.

 

I don't know anything about HTCs, but I have lived with Border Collies and worked them enough to know that shock has no place in their training.

[stockdogranch]

I have nothing really new to add, other than to totally agree with Lenajo's first post--she says it all right there. I have a line of BCs bred for cattle work; I have trained a number of them (all females BTW, just cuz I like the girls) to be fine cattle dogs, both in ranch work and on the trial field. They are sensitive dogs, and real thinkers, and level headed, and yet have (excuse the term) balls of steel when it comes to facing down cattle--they don't grip when not necessary, but will stand calmly face to face and hit the nose as needed. Part of what makes the BC so special is not just their desire to work, but their willingness to work with a human partner. It's a big part of what generations of good selective breeding have produced. Someone on this thread said something about the use of the shock collar being the same as stepping on the long line--please (insert sarcastic eye roll emoticon here). And if it is, then why not just use the long line? On another thread I think the answer is pointed out: no one wants to work that hard or that long. Bottom line: I have very strong feelings about shock collars: I have never, and will never even consider one to be a "training tool" for a working BC. Nor do I consider anyone who does use them for training a working BC to be a competent trainer. Period.

Anna

[bcnewe2]

I've also watched Gary's videos (granted a few years ago) show how to shock, and shock, and shock...a puppy with it's rope run through the back of the crate so it couldnt get away. He was teaching "load up". The puppy was wailing and bucking in fear.

 

Darnnnnn if this man can't teach load up without a collar then I'd hate to see him work though some of the tougher things.

 

I read another part about teaching the dog to come off it's stock.....My dog will occasionaly blow the that'll do off. If they continue I walk the dog down and take him away. But in my mind, I like that I have to occasionaly fight him off the stock, instead of the oppsite where he's running to get the heck out of dodge. Guess the shock collar is a prime example of how to turn a dog off in one heck of a hurry.

 

There are many times I'd like to use something harder than I have, those are the times I put the dog up and come back another day and the times that I think could turn out ugly. there is no place for anger in training my dogs!

 

I hope the op finds a good trainer in thier area. Good being the key word here!

 

BTW I had never heard of using a Shock c. before moving way down here to AR. They are commonly used around here. But I've yet to see a good dog working around here where they were used. I have seen dogs doing what some might call work, where they're all hunched up and tentitive. Not what I call work. Saw one that I thought was sick cause it was the way Mick used to look way back when he was still recouping from some TBD's. When I mentioned the dog looked so humped up the fella said, naw....we just took a SC off him earlier today. Yikes!

 

Kristen