looking for a pup

[SoloRiver]

I figured I'd start putting feelers out there and this is as good a place as any to put one.

 

In the next year or two I would like to add a puppy to my household. I am not in a hurry. I would rather wait for the right breeding than get a pup sooner. This is the first time I have ever looked to buy a puppy, much less such a specific puppy, so I am open to collective wisdom here.

 

She must be a bitch as I do not want to keep another male and Solo together. I am looking for a pup to be my next working and trial dog, and it will be the first puppy I have any hand in raising myself, as well as training on stock from the ground up. Therefore, I am not looking for a pup from a breeding that might produce great, great dogs but ones that would be hard for someone like me to handle and train. I would like a dog who is biddable and has a nice quiet manner around sheep, like Fly does, but with more oomph than she has and probably a bit less eye, freer to move, more willing to walk straight in rather than getting stuck. I do not think I can handle the type of dog that you need to hold on to with white knuckles, although such dogs can be extremely excellent working partners for the right handlers. I'm quite assertive and have no problem enforcing commands but I will be frustrated if I feel like I have to fight with my dog too much.

 

If she does not turn out to be my next trial dog, she will be my agility dog full time. I believe that any working-bred Border Collie would be good at agility, so I am not hung up on "perfect structure" and I am not interested in any versatility breedings. I am only interested in breeders who register with working registries and will not consider AKC-registered puppies, nor will I register any pup I buy with AKC.

 

I have little to no interest in breeding dogs and am perfectly willing to sign a spay/neuter contract, but I would prefer not to spay until she is physically mature, at least two years of age. I am also comfortable with keeping an intact bitch, I have done it in the past and did not consider it a hardship. If I develop into a much more astute trainer and handler than I am now and if it turns out that she is the Best Sheepdog in the World and if I had really, really really good advice I might be convinced to breed her but honestly, I have no such plans and the odds all that will happen, well, you know.

 

It probably goes without saying I am hoping for a rock-solid temperament. I prefer a more thoughtful, serious personality and the type of dog I can have conversations with, a dog who is inventive and clever, intuitive and fun to live with -- basically Solo's personality, but not his temperament. I don't care what color she is, but in an ideal world she will have light eyes.

 

There are some breedings I am interested in and some that I hope will be repeated that I am interested in. I could be ready anytime in the next year or two. Solo and Fly are both eight years old now and I think the time is right to start looking for a puppy. Any leads for responsible breedings of working dogs are welcome by PM. Any questions about the home I would provide are also welcome by PM or here (if I think they are too personal, I will answer them by PM rather than here). Any comments that will help me in my search for a pup (and by extension, possibly educate other readers of the Boards who might be in the same position) are welcome publically, here.

[Shoofly]

Why light eyes? I've been told light eyes tend to go with a hotter natured working dog (by one of those "one name" handlers). I don't know if i'd say i've seen that in my dogs, but it's surely someone i'd listen to. Moss has light eyes but they're a very light brown/cocoa, not the yellow eyes like this person was referring to, and i don't think he'll be too hot. Isn't so far anyway. My old Ben had very light yellow eyes and he was hotter sort for sure. I don't think sheep like those eyes very much.

[SoloRiver]

Hey Robin,

 

I like light eyes just because I like the expression. I find them easier to read and I tend to respond to them. They're not a necessity by any means, but one of those little "value-added" sort of things that I like.

 

Light eyes ranging from what Moss has, in a dark dog, like a hazel or an amber type color, to wolf yellow are the type I like (and of course yellow eyes in a red dog, which go with the territory). If I were picking a puppy from a litter that I might expect to produce some "hot" dogs I guess it might be wiser to pick the darker-eyed puppy, but I'm not sure what opinion to have about that stereotype.

 

But, looks are the last thing on the list of things I'm looking for and the working quality of the parents (plus how much I trust the breeder to produce the kind of dogs I like) are more important to me. I would be better off without a really "hot" dog. I have difficulty handling Solo, who has a very unsettling effect on sheep, although I'm not sure if that's because he's "hot" or because he's just weird.

[Little Bo Boop]

Have you considered getting an older dog instead of a puppy? Maybe 8 mo to a yr. old? I only ask, because your list of attributes that you want in a dog are all unknown's in a puppy, up to and including your eye color pref. ;-) its entirely a crap shoot (and I'm sure you're aware of that) But I'm asumming you live in a place where your number of dogs is limited and if you want a dog you can trial it seems you would up your odds of that were you to get a dog with a little age on it. you would have a 'bettter' idea of whether or not it 'might' work, maybe an 'idea' of 'how' it would work....temperment etc....I only mention this because I've kind of been in the same boat. Although I have land, and could have as many dogs as I like....I don't want 15 dogs lol. I have 5 and thats really too many, in my mind. Of my 3 dogs that work, Spree was a trained 4 yr. old, Liz was 4-5 months old, so a little older puppy, but she did show an interest in working before I took her...and Stella, well I didn't take my own advice on her and boy was I holding my breath until she turned on to sheep (thank god she was an early bloomer) Had she not wanted to work I still would have kept her, but it would have been a huge disappointment for sure. Anyway thats just my 2 cents

[NancyO]

Hey Melanie!

 

I would go with a repeat breeding, tho they are not always that easy to find. It will at least give you an idea of what you might get and whether it's what you are interested in or not.

 

Hear you are coming to the Finals.

See you then

 

Nancy O

[SoloRiver]

I know it would make way more sense to get a trained dog -- that's what I did when I got Fly. It was the smart thing to do. She was exactly the right dog for me at the right time. Like you, I don't want to end up with 15 dogs. I don't have the resources, either financially or emotionally, to support that many dogs, so everyone who comes here has to be carefully selected.

 

I would not rule out the right young started dog if she came along (you know, you fall in love with a dog and it just doesn't matter how old she is if she's right) but this time I want to raise a puppy. I've never had a puppy, and I think I'd do a pretty good job raising one myself at this point to at least grow up to be a decent canine citizen, even if she doesn't turn into the World's Greatest Sheepdog . I have no interest in non Border Collies, so I'm ready to take my chances with this one. If she doesn't turn out, that'll be disappointing, but she'll still have the same place here with me and we'll find some other training activity to challenge us. Solo is my favorite, and he's no one's idea of the ideal sheepdog. Let's face it, I don't have a farm and no dog here HAS to work for a living. I can support one more indigent dog.

 

If a pup does not turn out, Fly's got a few good years of working in her still. She hasn't slowed down at all, and I would not be surprised if she were still working decently at 10 or 11 years of age. Then, I'd look for another trained dog.

 

The only real serious challenge would be if the puppy turns out to have major behavioral issues, since I already have one project dog, but Solo and I have a routine down, and I'm probably a bit less intimidated than most people by behavioral problems. I do believe that such behavioral issues are a matter of genetics more than environment (I'm not talking about basic misbehavior due to training issues, I mean what I consider real problems) so careful selection of a breeding should shield me from that eventuality.

 

My preference would be for a puppy from a repeat breeding so I know what to expect.

 

I WILL be at the Finals and will have plenty of time to do reconnaissance there. I'm looking forward to seeing all my NEBCA friends. I think I'm on like five different volunteer lists. I'll also have colleagues with me from the genetics project (a veterinarian/PhD, and a veterinary technician) and we will be collecting samples for Operation Sheepdog Storm (I need to think of some catchy funny title for the Border Collie studies, heh).

 

Thanks for the input guys.

[Shoofly]

I actually do put some stock in that light eyes thing - i know sheep (and guard dogs!) always went on alert when Ben would come into a field. They could feel the wolf in him.

 

I'll be having a litter this winter that should suit most of what you're looking for though it might be already "sold out" and it'll be on the wrong coast. PM me if you're interested.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I decided this morning that my favorite eyes are rich medium brown. I woke up to find one, two, three sets of eyes lined up on the edge of the bed staring at me - I'd never realized before that Ted, Ben, and Gus all have the same color eyes.

 

I have to agree with your friend with just one name, Robin - I find that I have more trouble reading yellow eyes - to me they seem to have less range of thought behind them - for the most part varying degrees of YEEEHAW. Nothing against dogs that are like that - we need them in the gene pool too - but I've decided to avoid that personality as much as possible in the future as I don't have the talent to handle a dog like that.

 

I suspect it has less to do with their actual eye color, but more what lines tend to produce certain eye colors. Although that doesn't explain dogs in the same litter that follow the rule, does it? Hmmm.

[Shoofly]

I like the rich brown eyes myself but i also like Jet's caramel colored ones. I know Moss' eyes are striking being so light in that dark face, but i think they're harder to read as well. He has to work his face very hard to soften his expression when he wants.

 

I do have to say, i've certainly met plenty of dogs with darker eyes that are plenty hot, so i don't think the reverse of that theory is true. Anyone met Gael? Her eyes are so dark you can hardly see them in her black face and there's *nothing* cool about her work.

[juliepoudrier]

Melanie,

I'm sure you already know this, but it may help others thinking of a pup, so I'll say it here: I think the most imporant thing is to like the parents, the type of dogs they are, the way they work, their temperaments. Couple that with a knowledge of who's working those parents and you should be able to get a pretty good idea if the pups might be suitable for you. If you look at certain lines, and they all seem to be handled/worked by the same sorts of people (that is, people who generally train and handle a similar way), then you can infer whether the pups will be dogs that will suit your training and handling style. I'm like you in that I don't want a dog I have to grind on or fight constantly. Those types of dogs can be awesome in the hands of people who are comfortable working with them, but I don't think I'd have as much success with that type of dog as I might with a dog more suited to my handling/training style. I think a lot of people miss that and get pups from dogs they admire or that do extremely well on the trial field without ever stopping to think about the human partner of that team brings to the team and how that could affect the ability of person getting the pup to match that success. In short, if you can picture yourself successfully working with either parent, then the chances are greater that you and one of their pups would be a good match. In these situations, it also helps to have an experienced mentor who knows you and the potential crosses you are aconsidering as such a person might be able to give you valuable input. JMO.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

I'd also agree with what Nancy O says above about repeat breedings. They're hard to come by though. I tend to go more with what a sire or dam (or line) throws than i do with what that particular dog is like if i can though. Also keep in mind that there are some pretty heavily sex-based stuff in some lines. There are litters/lines i'd kill to have one sex out of and wouldn't take the other home with me.

[btrent]

Hi,

 

I just joined this group after browsing as a guest for a couple of weeks. (Don't ask me why, but I didn't know this forum existed until lately.)

 

Anyway just a comment, I got a puppy last year after going thru some of the same process as is described. Good thing he is a male because he fits most of these criteria including light-ish eyes or he might get dog-napped! He is not from a repeat breeding but the two parents (and many of the grandparents, etc) fit most of my own criteria then I sort of crossed my fingers. Lately he just started to work (at 11 months). He's really nice (now 12 months) with the stock and I'm very happy with him. Taking it slowly and letting him grow! Getting a puppy instead of a trained dog is a leap of faith but lots of fun.

 

Looking forward to lots of interesting reading on the Boards.

 

regards,

 

--Billy

btrent@sonic.net

Sonoma County, CA

with Bid, Chief, and Coal

[Shoofly]

Welcome to the boards Billy.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Melanie

 

Tess says to give her a call. ;-)

 

 

Diane

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Welcome Billy! Your pup and mine, and several others here, are at the same stage. It's an exciting time (Tedlet worked about ten lambs in the big field today and we worked up to calm 180 degree turns pretty much all over the field!).

 

I agree about the opposite not being true. The "hardest", most out to get a sheep, dog I ever saw worked had almost black eyes. He was line bred to a particular dog that I've seen both very dark eyes and very yellow eyes from, however.

 

One thing I'd add to people looking for pups (Melanie already knows this), is on the same lines as what Julie was saying. It's ideal if the breeder is someone who will be there for you, particularly for the novice (ie, novice to the breed). And that they are someone you can respect and trust to give you advice as pup matures and begins to reach training age. Many times it's the insight of a thoughtful and knowlegeable breeder that can get you past a hump, when even the most talented trainer isn't seeing the forest for the trees (okay, that's a mixed metaphor but my brain's a bit tired).

[Shoofly]

Becca - That sounds great on Ted! Love those young dogs....

[SoloRiver]

See why I want a pup?!?

 

I want to do that first year of raising, training, socializing, puppy manners classes, chewproofing. And at some point showing the pup some sheep to see what she'll do. If she doesn't like them, giving her some time and trying again later. Training her up and seeing what she turns into and watching her develop. If it doesn't work out, we'll do agility. That's cool. I like agility, and I'm short one agility dog with Solo benched due to arthritis.

[Black Watch Debatable]

This is such great advice:

I think the most imporant thing is to like the parents, the type of dogs they are, the way they work, their temperaments. Couple that with a knowledge of who's working those parents and you should be able to get a pretty good idea if the pups might be suitable for you.

 

Because the dog that turns out to be extremely biddable, with a lovely, quiet manner around her sheep, may be a hot, white-knuckle, E-ticket ride for a while to begin with. ETA: Like, for a year.

[SoloRiver]

Because the dog that turns out to be extremely biddable, with a lovely, quiet manner around her sheep, may be a hot, white-knuckle, E-ticket ride for a while to begin with.

 

Oh, I hope so!

[workindogs]

This is such great advice:

 

Because the dog that turns out to be extremely biddable, with a lovely, quiet manner around her sheep, may be a hot, white-knuckle, E-ticket ride for a while to begin with. ETA: Like, for a year.

 

Luisa and Melanie....this describes my Rye. As a youngster he was fast, excitable and always charging forward. As Nursery dog, I'd run him with my toes curled. My trips running up the field were numerous. It wasn't that he wasn't biddable...he's always been biddable....he can process a bazillion commands (well, except for "steady")....it's just that he was so fast and always barreling forward. The funny thing is that the sheep almost always liked him. This in my opinion is a very important quality in a working dog. My other retired Open dog had very scary presence (altho' really a sweety) which made sheep work a challenge. I thought it was funny that some Open handlers would tell me what a handful he was......others saw through it and would remark on how biddable he was.

 

At about 3 yrs, Rye began to settle down and gradually those raccous rides began to dimmish. Now he's a dog that's pretty steady, very biddable, sheep love but he has plenty of horsepower to get just about any job done.