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First exposure to sheep


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Well I have been really keen to get Delta (8 months) down to try her out on the sheep since first picking her up at 8 weeks. She has come from working lines and all her parents, grandparents etc are successful working dogs and I'm hoping she will be too. The club I took Cody to don't like to start dogs before 6 months unless the handler knows what they are doing. Since she turned 6 months it has rained every Sunday except the weekends that a trial was scheduled and training was off anyway. I finally got to take her today and as a last minute decision took Charlie as well. I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Charlie has any herding instinct whatsoever but figured the breeds are in there so I might as well take him along.

 

I took Delta out first and the trainer wanted to start off in a pen with about 20 sheep in it. The poor thing took one look at this mob of sheep staring at her and went and hid in the corner. She was absolutely petrified and no amount of coaxing could get her near them. The trainer had a real "just need to get her close and instinct will kick in" mentality which seemed a little odd but I figured he knew what he was doing. After 10 minutes I decided to get her out of there and grabbed Charlie. He was more interested in the trainers dog, the sheep poo, the trainer, etc. He was aware of the sheep but wasn't particularly interested in them. The trainer walked him through the sheep to separate a few of them and dropped the lead. He went and circled them without hesitation which shocked us all. We left the lead to trail after that and discovered that I have a dog who does in fact have herding instinct, keeps a good distance from the sheep, and immediately returns to my side when told to :D.

 

We stopped for lunch and I got talking to another trainer. She has done a range of dog sports with her dogs and seems to be more focussed on the dogs than the sheep. She told me that she would take me into the round pen after lunch to see how they went. There is only 3 sheep in there so I thought it was worth trying Delta again, plus this trainer was going to work at Delta's pace. With a lot of coaxing (and yummy frankfurts!!!) she eventually walked up to the gate and sat for me. We took her in and slowly walked around the pen. It took about 20 mins to walk right the way around as every few metres she lay down for a minute but got back up again on her own and kept going. Just like as though she had to gather her thoughts before going on :rolleyes: Just before we got right the way around she actually looked at them, started to step towards them but when she moved suddenly the sheep took off which startled her again lol.

 

I took her back to the car and played with them for a bit before taking Charlie in. He dragged me the whole way to the pen and was so eager that every time we made him stop he would only get to about 7 secs before getting up again. Which usually turned into about 30 secs coz I wouldn't let him walk up again until he waited for 10. I wouldn't normally make a dog wait that long but he has a bit of the cattle dog "Charge!!!" mentality that I want to get under control early. He still listened to whoever had his lead which is what impressed me. Cody was an advanced obedience and agility dog before I took him down there but he became deaf when he could see sheep. He never made it off the lead... Charlie seems like he will be better though, just by talking to him while watching what he did he started to work out some of the commands anyway. By saying steady before the lead went tight he generally backed off a little and if he lunged and made it tighten he started to automatically sit as he knew he would be asked to lol.

 

I will take them down again next weekend to see how they go. I'm hoping I might have finally found a sport that Charlie enjoys- he already does obedience (which is pretty boring anyway) and has been doing agility for a few months but he doesn't have the spark in his eye that Cody had and Delta definitely has. Agility is it's own reward for Delta and Cody was the same. With Charlie; however, he will do what I ask and is reasonably reliable on all the obstacles but he is very easily distracted and switches off halfway through the lesson. He really shocked me today though. I really didn't think he would want to herd at all but figured I might as well take him as some dogs can surprise you when they actually see the sheep. He certainly did that! The same lady is going to help me with Delta again next weekend which is good as I dont want her to be scared off this early. I'm confident that she will make a great worker once she gets over her fear of the evil white things!

 

Mind you, my dogs are probably at a disadvantage by having me as a handler lol. I walked in and went "Oooh... there are sheepies! Can I pat one?"

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I tend to think 8 months might be a bit young for this particular pup. I know having 20 or so sheep in a small pen would be pretty intimidating to a young cautious pup.

Try again next week. Don't rush things, keep them light and don't force her. Sometimes I've put a younger dog in with an older dog so the young one can gain a bit of confidence.

Still 8 months can be young for many dogs.

 

Good luck

Kristen

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Yes, I was thinking what Kristen was thinking - could be a little soon for Delta. I think if she were mine, I would wait and try her again in a couple of months. In the meantime, you can do your learning with Charlie. You learning about sheep, and understanding what it is you're trying to achieve, will likely be a big help to Delta - and is crucial anyway if you're going to do any sheep work.

 

Were you at Erskine Park?

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Yeh I will try her again this weekend, just getting her used to having sheep near her. If she is still really unsure after this weekend I will leave it a few months with her. I think she may have been okay if things had been taken slower right from the start. Instead the trainer took her into the yard, sent his dog into the holding pen to get the sheep out (which meant 20 sheep were running straight towards us) and then let her go. I don't blame the poor thing for being scared.

 

Once we went in with only 3 sheep she started to get a bit more confident. However, she had such a traumatic start to it all that we were already on the back foot.

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Introducing dogs to livestock can really take a while. If they haven't grown up with it those looming big bodies and weird smells can really be intimidating. I know it can take weeks of day to day supervised interaction to get a new dog comfortable in the barn, I don't know why it would'nt be the same with dogs and sheep.

 

I wouldn't give up hope. I'd just keep on exposing her in as calm a way as possible.

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From my novice point of view, it seems like a pen with 20 sheep was waaaaay too much for such a young/inexperienced dog. Three was a much better (and typical) number. I would try Delta again later, but probably not next week. I'd give her a little more time to grow up, IMO.

 

Now Charlie sounds like a go-getter. How fun that he surprised you. My BC mix Jack surprised us, too. So, I'd work with Charlie and get some experience for now, then maybe you'll be able to work them both eventually. It sounds like Charlie's found his calling. (You remember I'm a big Charlie fan, so maybe someone can take pics...hint, hint!) :rolleyes:

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I have taken Tempe to see sheep twice. She was petrified both times. I was told to put her up for a few months and try again later. She will be 2 yrs in Oct and I have not had the chance to take her back to see sheep yet. I am hoping to make time to go visit a person who has her brother and has some sheep. I will most likely go for the weekend and will most likely "make" Tempe deal with the sheep. She does not need to like them since I am not big on herding (no time for it) but I want her to learn to deal.

 

She has severe confidence issues anyways but they are getting better. Sheep will just have to be one more thing to live with.

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My 6 year old girl was scared of sheep at 6 months of age. And she grew up here on our hobby farm seeing and smelling the sheep every day. But somewhere around a year of age the light went on and she has wanted to work them ever since. So just give your girl some time and if it's in there she will turn on.

 

Kathy

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With pups showing not much interest, I wil chain them to the outside of the round pen and work other dogs. Sometimes that will do the trick. Or I will put them in the round pen and use Tess to work the sheep. They will follow Tess and then *BING* the lightbulb goes on.

 

Some are slower to mature than others, but well worth the wait

 

Diane~

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One of the pups out of Twist's litter was actually afraid of sheep for a long time. We tied him up outside the working area while working the other youngsters at a Jack Knox clinic and he would refuse to look and would even strain against the lead to get away. But then one day (a couple months after the clinic), at about 8 or 9 months old, he just turned on, and now he's doing as well as the rest of the littermates. When they're young it's best not to expect too much. Like Dianne said, some just need time to mature.

 

J.

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I am glad to hear, Julie, that that little guy has turned on. He was one unhappy pup at the clinic at Becca's.

 

Our old Rocket did not want to look at the cattle until he was pushing two years old (farm-bred, Border Collie-Aussie cross), and then he turned on and worked for us for many years, even when largely blind. He once may have saved my hubby's life when a cow turned on Ed, got him down, and was doing her best to rub him out. Rocket attacked the cow and helped convince her that she'd rather be elsewhere and doing something else.

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Yeh the only problem with 3 sheep though is that they are generally more anxious and more likely to stand their ground which can scare off a new dog. With more the sheep are more likely to do what the dog wants them to do. Not to mention they are all desexed rams, many of whom still think that they are entire lol and will challenge dogs if stressed. That was the logic behind putting her in with more (especially as she is a dog that has not shown any fear towards ANYTHING her entire life). Kinda ironic that we finally find something she is scared of and it turns out to be the thing she was bred to work!

 

These are the photos I took the other day, not the best quality as they were on my phone. Also, not quite talented enough to take photos while introducing dogs to sheep so there are none of them actually with the sheep.

 

Delta

P08-05-07_13.463.jpg

 

Charlie

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Both

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P08-05-07_14.591.jpg

 

The main collection of pens. Behind that fence is the round pen and a few small working yards. Behind them are the open fields.

P08-05-07_13.461.jpg

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Hmmm, well I don't know enough to judge, but I'm not sure they sound like appropriate sheep for beginner dogs, then. But obviously your trainer would know more than me, so I'll "shut up". :rolleyes:

 

Thanks for the pictures. Charlie reminds me so much of my Jack. Except for his freckles.

 

Keep us posted on their next adventure.

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Berocca,

I don't think any sheep that will stand up to a dog (or act like rams) are appropriate sheep for a beginner dog. The reasoning behind using a larger group is sound (although in my experience, larger groups just tend to splinter since the newbie dog isn't necessarily prepared to hold them all together), but not if that group becomes really heavy because of the numbers of sheep involved. Likewise if there are a lot of sheep in a really small space, that = A LOT OF PRESSURE on a beginner dog. I don't generally use three sheep to start a youngster, more like six or seven, but that's also usually in a larger area so the dog doesn't feel "trapped" by a mob of sheep and the sheep can move freely. The advantage of fewer sheep in a small space is that generally they will be lighter and hence more likely to move off a dog which shows the dog that it *can* move sheep, which should be the whole point of first introductions (and I'm not sure why the particular sheep you were using would be more likely to turn and fight when in smaller groups, unless they were fresh off the range or something--again you want to use sheep that *won't fight* when you're working with beginner dogs) . JMO of course.

 

J.

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If I were you, I'd be inclined to just sit outside the paddock or ring with Delta next time you go and let her watch while the other dogs are working. She's likely to get over her fear no matter what -- a dog's first exposure to sheep is no predictor of its ultimate worth -- but I would expect her to recover faster if she can watch the excitement without the pressure of being afraid. She is more likely to relax that way and get caught up with what she's seeing. If she gets excited and seems to want to get to the sheep, then I would take her in. Otherwise, I think I'd wait for her to grow up a little more.

 

I agree with Julie's comments about the sheep. Wethers who are used to being worked by dogs can be quite docile, but if they tend to challenge the dog when stressed they may not be a good choice for starting out with. It sounds as if the trainers you are using are much more into control early on than most of the "real" (i.e., those whose aim and expertise is producing a useful dog) trainers in the US. Over here the tendency is to let the dog go a bit at first, even if things get a little messy, in order to call forth the dog's instincts and build up his keenness. But certainly there are many different approaches to train a dog.

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