Calming vs. ignoring a dog (fireworks, thunder)

[mbc1963]

I've read all the dog-training manuals that tell me NEVER to calm, pet, or reassure a dog during a time of fear, such as thunderstorm or fireworks. I understand the justification: giving the dog petting and assurance tells him that the fear reaction is what I want, and reinforces it. I've always followed this advice with Buddy - when he became reactive outside the house, I just took him away from the fearful stimulus and continued on as if nothing were happening.

 

Last night, we had some REALLY loud fireworks out in the street outside my house. Buddy has always hid under my bed during fireworks, and hasn't seemed too upset. But last night he left the bedroom and went to cower in the corner near the back door. When I found him, he was actually shaking with fear, and let out a little cry when I went near him. He followed me into the bathroom and pushed further and further back between my legs each time he heard a noise. (Not easy to do your business in that situation!)

 

Well, I must be a bit softie, because I couldn't stand to leave Buddy down there, shivering. I closed the windows so he couldn't hear the noise so badly, and brought him up to the bedroom. He REALLY wanted to be with me, so I let him lie in bed (which is not my thing!). He relaxed and fell asleep within minutes. When the noise stopped, he hopped right off the bed when asked, and went to his own place.

 

It seems to me that simply being near me was a big help to Buddy's anxiety. So... how do y'all feel about giving him some comfort when he's that stressed out? I'm thinking back to my own childhood (being another type of social mammal), and thinking that human parents don't isolate a child when it's stressed and anxious: they hold the child, and the touch of skin helps to calm him. Plus, this isn't a stimulus that I can introduce from a distance and then reward for calm behavior.

 

I'm not trying to push one opinion or the other - I really want to know what people think OUTSIDE what the books say. After all, the books from 15 years ago told us all to do alpha rolls and such, but common sense took us away from that. I'm wondering if the "don't comfort" philosophy is a current, trendy way of thinking that might fall by the wayside? On the other hand, I know that there are neurotic dogs who don't learn to cope with anything on their own because their owners pick them up and coddle them anytime they face any kind of challenge or stress. What has everyone's personal experience been?

 

I did read the recent anxiety thread, and understand both sides of the debate, and yes, will thoughtfully consider medications if this escalates much more. Fortunately, fireworks are just about done for the year.

[bexie]

This is just a thought and I am sure other more experienced people will reply soon.

 

But what if you shut Buddy into the bedroom with you and gave him something that smells like you under the bed with him and just casually hung your hand over the side of the bed so he could touch you?

 

I would be hesitant to let him onto the bed if you don't want him there regularly as that is a big difference. I would be more likely to sit on the floor next to the bed myself so he stayed where he was used to being. But it also isn't totally abnormal for me to sit on the floor with a blanket and read a book. ;-) I'd say you shouldn't become someone totally different either because then Buddy might think YOU are scared!

 

Also some music might help "mask" the noise of the fireworks so he can relax more easily. I also used music or TV when I was younger and home alone at night. It stopped me from jumping at every little noise because I didn't hear them. It works with Molly as well.

 

What about doing something "normal" but distracting? Like trying to play with him or doing some training? Something that focuses him on something else, gives you something he can do that you can praise him for that is unrelated to the noise, and something that lets him know that you really don't care about that noise--it isn't scary or important.

 

I think the main point is not to do anything that rewards him for his fear. But also do not punish him for it. Let him be near you but don't reward him with an extra treat when he is scared. Maybe delay his dinner nights it is expected or make him work for extra goodies. Or if you can get him to do soemthing normal for a moment, reward that. Teach him that the right behavior is to be calm. It's okay to be alert, but he doesn't need to be freaking out or cowering under the furniture or barking up a storm.

 

Good luck.

*crosses her own fingers that next NYE will be peaceful with Molly and hopes she can take her own advice otherwise*

[philip4420]

Sam was terrified of fireworks and gun fire. I tried the 'ignore it' thing for years and it didn't do any good. He was too stressed to eat or play and I'm afraid it got worse as he got older.

 

If we were out and he heard a shot or a bang that scared him I found the best thing was to have him off lead and walk slowly. If we were well away from traffic of course. On lead he pulled fantastically to try to get us home fast. Off lead he ran ahead very fast for about 20 yards. Then stopped dead, turned and ran back to me again. Then he'd go ahead again and so on. He never ran away from me it was as if he wanted me to join in the panic and eventually settled down once we were away from the noise.

 

Inside he crawled into a corner, panted shook and drooled. I always stayed with him if I thought there might be fireworks. I made sure the curtains were shut and that the TV was on Loud. When they're that upset you can't ignore it.

 

Do whatever helps. Collies are bright enough to know that sometimes they may be allowed priviages like sleeping with you and that it can't happen every day.

 

Depending on how bad it is talk to your vet. Last year I discovered there's a newer pill that really helped. It calmed him without making him dopey and it also blocks out the memory so If he has a bad experience the memory won't add to his anxiety next time. Sorry I can't remember what it was called.

 

It might also be worth getting a CD of scarey noises and desensitising him slowly. I've been doing this with Dale since he was very small and he seems quite untroubled by noise just curious.

 

Remember you know your dog so do what you feel is right. Obviously you want to keep things as normal as possible but .....

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Hmmm, I guess I have a couple of opinions.

 

First, my dog is very fearful but not especially afraid of say, thunderstorms. He's very afraid of kids and calming him when they are around is not something I do. I'm going the counter-conditioning route so I do something fun with him. He's not especially treat motivated so that doesn't work, but at the dog park when kids come in I play fetch with him and try to prevent him from hiding under the benches like he wants to. I also act upbeat and happy like there's nothing wrong. He is getting better as time goes by.

 

My grandfather had a former police dog GSD that was terrified of thunderstorms. They would lock him up in the garage. I felt bad when I was visiting so I'd go out there and sit with him and comfort him. When I was there he would settle down and be calmer so I think my presence helped. I think if I'd known about counter-conditioning then I would have done something fun with him that he loved and it may have helped him.

 

As a parent, I think of times when my kids have been startled or afraid of things, even thunderstorms. We would always say "Wow! What's that? Boom! Boom! Boom!" and act upbeat and curious and taught them how to count between the flash and the boom, etc. So in that case there seemed to be a combo of comforting and counter-conditioning going on.

 

I think the key is building a positive association when fear-causing things happen. So in the case of the OP, you may have built an association between being on the bed with you and thunderstorms. It will be interesting to see if he jumps up there or acts like that's where he wants to go when the next storm rolls in. I think doing something he enjoys might occupy him and solve the problem.

[juliepoudrier]

I find that my thunderphobes do best if I put them in a crate and then cover the crate so that they are completely enclosed and in the dark (it seems they also react to lightning, so blocking that out helps--maybe they recognize that a flash of light will be followed by that awful noise). If left out, they will run to me for comfort (and at night that means multiple dogs piling on and off the bed--no fun for me), but they also freak out all over the house (I have one who literally climbs the walls). A covered crate works well--it's a safe, dark den. (Obviously if the dog is terrified to the point of trying to break out of a crate, then that wouldn't work.) Since I don't want to reward my dogs for panicking over thunder, lightning, fireworks, whatever, they just go straight to a covered crate when any of that starts--no special attention. I think if my dog were terrified to the point of curling up in a ball and shaking like a leaf, I would consult my vet or a certified animal behaviorist (or both) about starting some sort of appropriate (i.e., NOT acepromazine**, which is what many vets reach for first) drug therapy to take some of the edge off the panic while I also worked on behavior modification.

 

**acepromazine renders the dog unable to move its limbs but does nothing to address the panic issue, so you just have a dog in full panic mode mentally who can't move, and I think that's just cruel.

 

J.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

**acepromazine renders the dog unable to move its limbs but does nothing to address the panic issue, so you just have a dog in full panic mode mentally who can't move, and I think that's just cruel.

 

OMG! That is cruel!!! Makes me think of that movie w/Harrison Ford and Michelle Pfeiffer "What Lies Beneath" and the bathtub scene! At least give the dog a sleeping pill if you're going to knock it out so it's not aware, but to paralyze it and leave it aware? That's terrible!!!

[clara]

I empathize. I have been doing the "ignore her" thing for five years, since Ling is quite scared of fireworks, though luckily we don't get thunder around here much at all. Last year, she seemed to be improving a bit, in that when I was outside and the neighborhood fireworks started, she would still run in the house, but stop at the door and lay down there to watch me instead of running to hide behind the toilet. Last night, when they started, Ling's response was a little different, and more like Buddy's. She followed me wherever I went, pushing her way behind my legs, practically trying to climb in my lap when I went to the bathroom. When I was watching TV she tried to climb under a little table and got tangled in some cords, then she tried to squeeze behind a huge corner bookshelf. Her crate was right there, but she didn't think to go in it herself, which she often does when she's stressed. I pet her whenever she approached me for attention, but didn't seek her out to comfort her. After a few minutes of trying to ignore her panicky behavior, I put her in her covered crate, where she calmed down and went right to sleep.

 

I don't know how "right" this is from a reinforcement standpoint, but when she goes and hides somewhere (like under the bed or behind the toilet), I'm not going to go find her and coax her out. When she does that, we have a big party and treats galore with our other, unafraid dog in the other room, and she usually comes out to see what the fun is all about. But if she is with me, and asking for protection, I'll either hold her if it's convenient, like on the couch or in bed (ok so I have a 42lb lap dog, it works) or protect her by putting her in her crate, covered but in the same room as me.

 

I wish it was almost over here. The kids in my neighborhood have almost all just reached the age where fireworks are fun for at least a week leading up to the 4th and a week after, and their parents let them set them off every night.

[borderfreak]

What about doing something "normal" but distracting? Like trying to play with him or doing some training? Something that focuses him on something else, gives you something he can do that you can praise him for that is unrelated to the noise, and something that lets him know that you really don't care about that noise--it isn't scary or important.

 

I agree! Distracting is the best way.

[Allie Oop]

You will have to guage how serious the noise issue is. I have one dog that doesn't seem to mind fireworks, sirens and loud noises too much and one dog who is absolutely terrified of loud popping noises, especially fireworks. The shaking, quivering, moaning type of terrified. The crate works pretty well, although it does not stop the shaking and crying. This year (we just found out about the problem last 4th of July as it was our first one with Allie), I got a prescription for Valium. She got the first dose on Saturday night, as the do-it-yourself firework folks started practicing and it worked quite well. Allie jumped up and settled on our family room sofa between us and basically just settled in. She still lifted her head at every loud pop, but she was not shaking or panting. Last night, I didn't give her any of the Valium and she spent most of the evening in the bathroom, lodged behind the commode.

 

I will definitely be administering the Valium this evening.

[Kat's Dogs]

With my dogs, I don't agree with the comforting. Sort of because it is rewarding the fear, but more so because if you cuddle up with them and stroke them - you can actually be telling them in doggy-ness that you are scared to. Which could certainly make things worse.

 

However, I don't think ignoring is good either - that is more like a punishment - at least it is for my guys.

 

Instead, I just be as happy and GOOFY as I can. Calling them silly and trying to get them to play, eat yummy treats, whatever. This seems to help them - they cue on to how I react.

[Root Beer]

I've always been told the same thing "never comfort a fearful dog - it will reinforce fear" and I bought the rationale, but never actually had the heart to not give my fearful dog comfort and support. I was surprised to find that doing so did not, in fact, make him more fearful - sometimes it actually helped.

 

Later I came across a scientific explanation of why comforting and supporting a fearful dog actually won't reinforce fear and it really made a lot of sense to me. Ever since I've worked off what I understand about brain chemistry when dealing with fear - both major and minor - in my dogs. I've been very happy with the results.

 

Basically, I learned that fear is experienced due to a physical response in the brain to a given stimulus. So, dog hears "BOOM" - brain reacts (for whatever reason) by producing the chemicals that cause the dog to react in a fearful way. My understanding is that this mechanism is actually a survival tool. Say dog sees large predator in the woods, dog is frightened and runs away, dog lives. Fear of things that one should be afriad of is a good thing. Fear of things that actually won't cause the dog harm are really a "misplaced" survival mechanism. It can't simply be shut off. Even people, who often have a rational understanding of fear of things that can't really hurt them can't shut it off.

 

And from this perspective, giving the dog support and comfort will not result in the dog becoming more fearful, nor in the dog starting to "act" fearful when he or she is not simply to get attention. Ever since I learned that, I have no worries that giving my dogs whatever comfort or support is appropriate when they experience fear will "reinforce" the fear.

 

The cool thing is that there are also chemicals produced in the brain that can counter this response. That's why desensitization works. Or, if the fear is mild enough, "distraction".

 

So, when my dog is experiencing fear, I choose to deal with the dog according to this theory. None of my dogs act fearful when they are not truly frightened of something - even the one that has "fear issues" is happy and confident when he's not really experiencing fear.

 

What I've also found is that it's best to give the dog support in the way that works at that time. Sometimes it is best to simply leave the dog alone - not to pointedly ignore the dog as if he doesn't exist, but just to give him some space to process the thing that is causing fear. Sometimes it is best to feed or start a game. Sometimes it is best to hold the dog in my lap or pet him quitely on the floor. It often depends on the degree to which the dog is frightened.

 

I know that there are neurotic dogs who don't learn to cope with anything on their own because their owners pick them up and coddle them anytime they face any kind of challenge or stress. What has everyone's personal experience been?

 

I think that this could only happen if the owner really went out of his or her way to make sure that the dog never had a chance to face any kind of challenge or stress.

 

I don't pick up my dog every time he is experiencing fear, but if something is causing him fear to the point where he cannot function - hiding in a corner shivering and unable to respond - picking him up is not going to cause him to become neurotic. He's pretty much already neurotic at that point and forcing him to "tough it out" or ignoring him is not going to help. In his case, it would make things worse.

 

Of course, a severely fearful dog must learn coping mechanisms to deal with challenge or stress, but this can really only be done successfully starting at low levels of challenge or stress. So, the dog that is afraid of children must learn to be confident 100 feet away from a child before he or she could be confident with a child running toward him with hand outstretched!

[Root Beer]

Oh, I just wanted to add that I've found that my attitude is important, too. And that also has to be guaged to the dog and the fear.

 

With Speedy if I try to act "HAPPY!!!!!" when he is fearful, his fear response gets worse. What works with him, is a very quiet attitude of acceptance. It really and truly is OK for him to be scared. When I can communicate that to him with my tone and actions, he often starts to recover much faster.

 

With Dean I can do the "HAPPY!!!!" His temperament is confident - there are just some things that spook him.

[juliepoudrier]

With my dogs, I don't agree with the comforting. Sort of because it is rewarding the fear, but more so because if you cuddle up with them and stroke them - you can actually be telling them in doggy-ness that you are scared to. Which could certainly make things worse.

 

However, I don't think ignoring is good either - that is more like a punishment - at least it is for my guys.

 

Instead, I just be as happy and GOOFY as I can. Calling them silly and trying to get them to play, eat yummy treats, whatever. This seems to help them - they cue on to how I react.

Kat,

I do the same as you for things like gun shots. Where I used to live, there was a farm behind the pond where I used to take the dogs swimming. Someone there would shoot what sounded like a black powder rifle. Several of my dogs also dislike gun shots and the fortunate thing about the black powder rifle is it takes time for reloading, so not a lot of shots in rapid succession. Anyway, when I was walking the dogs and a shot was fired and the scared ones would run toward me I'd just make fun of it--happy voice, "Oh no, we've been shot!," clap hands, "Let's go, let's go!," and so on and we'd keep on our walk or swim. Distraction will work with some dogs if the distraction is enticing enough. Twist doesn't like gunshots at all but doesn't seem to be real bothered by storms. If she's working and someone is shooting a gun, she seems to ignore the gunshots and concentrate on stockwork. But once she stops working, gun shots clearly upset her and she'll hang very close to me. But for thunderstorms I still crate (crates are in the house in the bedroom or main living room, so where the people are). For one thing, I can't distract five dogs at once, and for another, since many storms come late or in the middle of the night, I'm not about to stay up half the night trying to distract those dogs. Often one sheet/bedspread, whatever, will be spread over several crates, so they aren't in complete isolation either. And they are all crated routinely at other times and some actively seek their crates during a storm anyway. Again though, if they were truly scared-to-death, in a quivering and crying sort of panic, I'd be taking more serious measures than a covered crate. I think each person needs to figure out what works best for their individual dogs and go with that, but everyone needs to remember that coddling a dog when it's scared will reinforce those scared behaviors. And also that noise phobias do tend to worsen with age, so if you're the coddling type, you'll have to keep escalating your coddling behaviors as the dog's phobias escalate, and that certainly won't be much fun in the long run.

 

Where I used to live, we didn't hear anything in the way of fireworks, so were pretty lucky. I'm not sure how it will be in this new place, but I'm hoping that there aren't too many yahoos out here who feel the need to set of bottle rockets and the like.

 

ETA: Kristine, what you say makes sense, but I think many people tend to go overboard when a matter-of-fact attitude is what's really needed. I watched a housemate make his dog neurotic about being left alone by making a really big deal over him whenever he left or came back to the house. Because of that the dog was obnoxious as hell anytime the owner left him--whining constantly, barking, etc., so I do believe there is something to the theory of reinforcing unwanted behaviors as well.

 

J.

[Allie Oop]

Great post, Kristine! I could never totally ignore Allie's plea for comfort when she is frightened by fireworks or other loud noises. I don't feel like I coddle or encourage the fear-reactive behavior just by allowing her sit on the couch by me, or even sleep on my bed next to me, however. I do make encouraging "happy" sounds when fireworks go off and don't allow her to cling to me in terror (as she is prone to want to do). I basically just provide her a "safe" place to avoid the loud noises and, if the noises are prolonged and continous, medication to help her cope with her anxiety. We continue on with our normal routine. If she seeks out a comforting pet or desires to be where we are, then I provide that comfort. I think there is a difference between providing a little comfort and reinforcing the reactive behavior.

 

One note, I have discovered that Allie seems to be a little less reactive to the loud noises that last year turned her into a quivering, drooling puppy puddle. It appears that she has become desensitized, to a certain degree, to the fireworks (we can now go for walks without her bolting to hide under the nearest rock or bush if there is a loud pop) and she doesn't cower in terror under the driver's seat in the van whenever we have a campfire (which is often, as we camp a lot). She still reacts and doesn't like loud noises at all, but overall seems to have made a small improvement. A big loud fireworks display is a whole different thing, however, and I will definitely be giving her the meds this evening and keeping her inside where she feels safe.

[SoloRiver]

People need to observe their dogs. If whatever you're doing isn't working, it's time to try another tactic. If what you're doing IS working, keep doing it! In the case of the OP, the dog calmed down and relaxed enough to sleep once on the bed. To me that sounds like a solution.

 

From my experience with my own dog, phobic responses to noise aren't really something the dog can turn on or off. It's not possible to TEACH a phobia to a dog, but I do think that acting odd doesn't help because it only tells the dog that you think something is wrong too. That goes both for unprecedented coddling as well as unprecedented coldness. Sometimes people, in an effort not to coddle, go too far in the other direction and interact less with the dog when he is afraid. I don't think this helps either.

 

With Solo it seemed to help if I sat with him and touched him (maybe a hand on his shoulder) without a lot of cuddling or talking. It definitely makes a difference if I am present. His fears aren't as intense as they used to be (we LOVE Xanax as a counterconditioning tool for noise phobia!) but there are still the occasional noises that scare the bejeezus out of him. I'm lucky enough where we live now that they are infrequent enough so I can usually be with him when they happen.

 

Happy Fourth of July everyone! (heh)

[RaisingRiver]

Last night I saw my two BCs react to early fireworks a block away. We were outside and River (21mos) and Diesel (18mos) we both tail-tucked and quick to move around in a hiding like manner everytime they went off. Diesel often hiding behind someone's legs. I think it helped that I would have them come over by me and tell them 'it's ok' and pet them. I think this worked well since when they bark at something from in the house, my auto-response to quiet the dogs is 'it's ok' which means 'thank you for alerting me, everything is fine and you can stop now'. So I don't feel I'm fostering the scared response.

 

Tonight I plan to try putting them in the laundry room, run the washer & dryer since I have laundry to do anyway and see how that goes since I now know my BCs are reactive - and for at least part of the night I'll be outside with my family setting off fireworks so unable to watch them carefully.

[mbc1963]

Thanks very much to everyone for your responses. These boards are really a godsend when I have a question!

 

I agree that distracting Buddy with mental stimulation or a game is ideal... but knowing myself, it's not likely I'll be able to function when woken in the middle of the night by fireworks. Last night, I just HAD to lie back down, which is why I let the dog come into bed with me. It will be interesting to see if he tries to sneak in tonight! How quickly does a border collie learn!?

 

Lots to think about. Thanks again!

 

Mary

[Zoe]

I think this is such an interesting question and something I have wondered about too, so thanks for posting it. These boards really are great - I have relished reading peoples responses to this. Dylan is my first dog and I have found that in some cases ignoring him works, or even "explaining stuff and encouraging him to confront what is fearful to him" works, but in other situations ignoring him or trying to work him through it would be cruel. Distracting him would just not be possible, so I have "taken charge" by reassuring him that it is ok, or by taking him away and/or putting him in a "safe" place. And that has worked for him. Just to add - Thankfully, he is not a fearful dog. He has no problem with fireworks, thunder, loud noises in general. BTW, I think you did the right thing.