Bo Peep Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Now I haven't herded sheep for a long time and I always started my dogs on so called "Velcro sheep" but today I went to a seminar. Now, I learned a lot from the seminar and everyone there had wonderful dogs and believe me Usher was the worst behaved one there, which might not come as a shock to those of you that have heard of me discuss him. The sheep were pretty flighty, but did well with other breeds of dogs and Usher is still young, and I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression. I didn't snap the picture at the right time. But the trainer had all the beginner dogs in a round pen- understood, was great in rotating sheep, good. But she kept the sheep against the fence with her at one end and my dog at the other end. Why was that? She said do you know why I did that? And all I could think of was, "you sent my dog in to fail". What was a young dog going to do but bust them up? He hasn't learned to go around the fence yet and wasn't led by the collar to do so. Maybe a slower dog or a different breed or an older or more trained dog would have done fine with that arrangement, but in my eyes, it was just looking for trouble. Was I wrong? Don't take me wrong. I had a great time with all the dog people and did learn some things. This picture doesn't show exactly what I am talking about. I kind of got frustrated and put the camera away. I don't think anyone knows this trainer and her back is to the camera. She works with different breeds or I wouldn't have posted it. I sure could use some pointers. I'm about ready to give up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Ok...more info here, please. What was the response when you asked your question? Was the dog encouraged to go around the stock (or what)? What happened when the dog was positioned across from the sheep? What exactly did this person DO in there? Or what did the other dogs do, and what did the person do in response? My opinion (not that you necessarily wanted it! ): Lots of folks use a round pen--in fact, I think most do for starting dogs (I think it's a carryover from starting horses). I prefer a 50 X 75 rectangular--I happen to like corners...in a round pen, the stock can spend their entire time on the perimeter, and the dog, not having enough experience or confidence, can never get them off the darn perimeter, so nothing much gets accomplished. With corners, I can step in and usually get the dog to get behind the sheep (hooray--in balance) so I feel that the dog is learning something. BUT, I think it really depends on what you're used to. If you learned how to start dogs in a round pen, then that's what you'll like. I learned in a rectangular pen, so that's what I like. Either way, I get them out of there within one or two lessons, out into the open. As for "velcro" sheep--I thing they are the most valuable thing to have for starting dogs. If I have sheep that I can count on not to run off, I can position myself to let the dog know what to do. But I DO move on to other sheep asap, like by lesson 2 or 3. But again, I think it depends on what you're used to. I think I'd have a pretty hard time starting a dog without my "school sheep." It would require the older dog to hold them, which to me, would confuse the issue at least a bit. Overall, sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what could/should have been happening in there... you know enough to take the dog by the collar, if necesary, to get the sheep off the fence. I'm really interested to hear what the response was to your question--or was it just rhetorical? Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Hi, I'm not quite seeing what's going on (in my mind or the picture)... are you saying the trainer was putting pressure on the sheep to stay against the fence? Otherwise, if she was in front of the sheep , near the fence, and the dog was behind the sheep, near the fence, she might have been trying to use her draw (if they are velcro sheep) to pull them off and help the dog learn to come between. I also would say that learning to get sheep off the fence, whether round or square pen, is something I would work on from the first day so long as the dog confident enough to be pressured into that position. If the trainer was purposely putting the sheep on the fence and using her body to hold them there, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, but if a dog was not very confident, I might do that a VERY little bit to encourage the dog to come in. I'd hate to have anyone take pics at my place and try to figure out what I was doing though LOL. What they'd mostly come up with is that I'm not doing enough dieting . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 No- she used me as an example kind of because I had trained dogs before, saying that my dog lacked the confidence to go around the sheep. He's only 9 months old. They were NOT Velcro sheep. I really believe in starting with Velcro and moving up from here. One good thing that happened was I met someone that has Velcro sheep only 30 minutes away. He was NOT encouraged to go around them. Just stand there until he finally busted them up. I found this very discouraging, both to me and my dog. I wasn't even allowed in the arena. I really don't want to say anything bad about this trainer. She shows a different breed and has done very very well. My dog is hard headed and tough. This was only his 3rd time on sheep and I'm really feeling like giving up here. Have you ever walked into a place and some sheep don't know your dog is there, but another dog comes in and "boom" their ears pick up? Well, that's what kind of dog I have. I think he needs a trainer a lot more talented than I am. But....I still think this move was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 In that case I'd agree with you- there is nothing to be gained by putting a young dog in that situation and not helping it. I would also urge anyone that they should not participate in a clinic where they are "not allowed" to go in with the trainer. Some people choose not to go in, and that is fine (and in some cases better) but to not be allowed to work your own dog? Makes no sense. What did she do when the dog busted the sheep up? (if that is what happened?) I have also found, very rarely, in some all breed situations (i.e with a "other" breed judge or trainer in charge) that there is an element of "let's point out what's wrong with the Border Collie". Not all such folks for sure, but a select few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 What I don't understand is why you would give up? If a plumber botched up your drain pipe would you go back to using a privvy, or would you look for another plumber? You told me everything I need to know about this trainer when you said she "shows another breed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I have seen this on occasion too. A clinic full of other breeds, one BC, and the BC's faults are highlighted. A good trainer looks at what the DOG is doing, not his breed. Since this person works another breed, then she may have a bias. Just chalk it up as a learning experience, and stay away from this person. At clinics, you should always come away having learned how to help your dog, and not spend your time thinking how bad your dog is. Julie In that case I'd agree with you- there is nothing to be gained by putting a young dog in that situation and not helping it. I would also urge anyone that they should not participate in a clinic where they are "not allowed" to go in with the trainer. Some people choose not to go in, and that is fine (and in some cases better) but to not be allowed to work your own dog? Makes no sense. What did she do when the dog busted the sheep up? (if that is what happened?) I have also found, very rarely, in some all breed situations (i.e with a "other" breed judge or trainer in charge) that there is an element of "let's point out what's wrong with the Border Collie". Not all such folks for sure, but a select few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Have you voiced your questions to the trainer? Not as a public rant, but privately so you can have a discussion. You might be surprised at the answers, and if you can't talk to her...well it doesn't matter how good she is, you have to feel comfortable enought to ask questions. When I teach clinics it is made clear up front that everybody learns from each other, even if how not to do it. I won't tolerate people making fun of each other or being demeaning, but explaining how a dog shows it lacks confidence is a good thing - something everyone who works dogs needs to understand. Then there needs to be discussion on how to build confidence, and how behavior will change. Open up with questions! For example *ask* why you can't work you own dog? Does the instructor feel the sheep are in danger? that the dog is too young, bold, and hard driving for you for the first few lessons? What are her expectations of you and your dog compared to yours? There is nothing wrong with having a breed, or multi breed , preference, and there are some very good Border Collie handlers that started, and continue, with their "alternative" breeds. Being open minded and learning how to develop a different type of dog can make an excellent trainer. I'm all for walking away from a breed snob, a rude and nastily uncommunicative trainer, or anyone who makes cruel jokes of beginners doing their best. But those are very rare, and more often than not its simply miscommunication or an incompatible learning style. And evne more often, the instructor doesn't know the student is misunderstanding, or that they are presenting another picture than the one they need to the student. Go watch a few lessons with an open mind. Ask the instructor to set up some time to speak to you about your questions. If you aren't happy - walk. And find someone you can enjoy working with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Well, since I have been bashed by my group- I didn't want to mention this. Believe me, Usher is one great dog. I have trailed 6 others, but he is very strong and VERY hard headed. I hate to admit I have lost a dear friend due to this topic. I had no clue that I should take it up with the trainer- didn't have her personsal e-mail. I will admit my dog is one big hand full. BUT- he is NOT a toss away dog. He is very well bred, but I (and he) an agroing to say "good-bye" to his 2 furry friends that lie benithl. He has his problems, but in a structucted zone -as in obedide and just hanging out, he's a good boy. So, herding is just a hobby to this guy. I'll stay on the pet section now. Dianne P.S. no spell check on this computer- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 no spell check does lead to confusion. Are you saying you trialed, or you trained, 6 others? I'm was thinking you have not done sheepwork before. I don't see what the problem is with getting a different instructor if that's what you need, but I will stand by my suggestion that you should give this one a chance to explain if possible. Where did it get said he is a toss away dog? And goodness, he is just a big pup- a little early to be pigeonholing his abilities for life. At his age he should be busting up a few flocks, screaming around feeling his oats. It's normal. Hobby or profession, doesn't change the process of training and developing a sheepdog. And nuetering isn't going to change his working drives or listening ability. Well, since I have been bashed by my group- I didn't want to mention this. Believe me, Usher is one great dog. I have trailed 6 others, but he is very strong and VERY hard headed. I hate to admit I have lost a dear friend due to this topic. I had no clue that I should take it up with the trainer- didn't have her personsal e-mail. I will admit my dog is one big hand full. BUT- he is NOT a toss away dog. He is very well bred, but I (and he) an agroing to say "good-bye" to his 2 furry friends that lie benithl. He has his problems, but in a structucted zone -as in obedide and just hanging out, he's a good boy. So, herding is just a hobby to this guy. I'll stay on the pet section now. Dianne P.S. no spell check on this computer- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Are you thinking you've been bashed here? Or are some people reading this and bashing you? I see nothing here but support for you and encouragement to raise your concerns and have them addressed. If someone else is bashing you for raising legitimate concerns, then to hell with them, I say. Do what's right for your dog, not your social circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 no- not being bashed here- I'm just going to my crate and leaving this subject closed. Yes, I trialed 6 dogs before. But apparently, that had nothing to do with my "now" dog. Now, I live in the city, he's an only dog. My limitations are way before what they used to be. I have dystonia- it's kind of like Parkinson's , but I won't die from it, but when I go, it will be with me. A lot of BC owners don't "connect" with a dog- too head strong not biddable etc..... I keep mine when I can. Had to part with a few due to a divorce and moving to the city. If "sheep" isn't his thing, we can move on to other things. He's mine, he's here to stay and I love him. I actually didn't buy him for the herding, it's more of a hobby for us. I've had border collies for over 20 years and once you've gone black & white- you never go back- LOL. I wanted a BC and didn't want a AKC one. I wanted an intense well bred dog. Well, I got one!! Maybe a little more than I can handle and it's NOT just me. Others have tried. So........I give up......He wil be a home-body and that's it. I guess just a pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 It's completely up to you, but just keep in the back of your mind, that people, in general don't really care one whit about our "feelings" on things, and even un-intentionally can really hurt us. I have had some lessons with my Kelpie that have not gone well, and left me wondering what I was doing. Then the next lesson is a complete 180. You know this because you worked other dogs- ebb and flow of learning I guess. Perhaps something that could work would be to meet some friends occasionally to just "work dogs"- with no goal per se in mind- no deciding if the dog is worth it or not. I would welcome your boy to my place. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Hi, My dogs usually go through BIG changes at 1 year, 2 years, and 4 years (my personal experience, not to be confused with actual fact - I couldn't consider a pup at 9 months to be worthy of retiring to other activities just because it wasn't making progress on sheep. I think you would do well to put the pup up from sheep for about 4-6 months and concentrate on building your relationship with him. Bring him back with the idea that you are starting from scratch and try to let go of your past experiences on sheep. Better yet, send him to a good hand to be started right. We have a pup, just two, here now that started out very hard and basically wanted to pull down and eat sheep from the time he was 5 months until about 11-12 months. There was nothing wrong with him except he has a big motor and an overwhelming desire to control stock. There was plenty of sessions where he "wasn't getting it" and didn't seem to want to come around. But with patience and some hard work, he's turned into a very nice dog that is responsive, powerful and almost ready for his first Novice trial. You still have to keep an eye on his "enthusiasm" but he's really come a long way. This dog is Mike's first sheepdog- he has been hard for a novice to start but it has come around just fine. What is really great to see is that through the battles, Brice has changed from a head butting brat into a willing partner. So don't give up, take a break and come back to the basics, you might be surprised! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Now I'm really confused...how did we go from a trainer that might not be the right one for you and this particular dog to giving up on this dog? Is he keen and wants to work? If so, then I would definintely NOT give up. He's really young--as Lenajo says, he SHOULD be acting a bit goofy with the stock--taking some cheap shots, busting them up--that's what pups do to figure out who they are in relation to the stock. How does he do socially--like just general manners? Does he listen to you then? He might need a bit of time to just learn to behave socailly, etc., and really listen to you--recall, lie down, etc. Give him a break from trying to start him on stock till that's all really well taken care of. Then try stock again, with a trainer with whom you are more comfortable, Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I'm not a trainer, but from my perspective, Bo Peep, it sounds like you're letting one bad clinic, and other people's opinions of your dog make you think you need to give up on him. Where'd that come from? I'm a greener than green newbie to all this stuff, but you had a legimate concern with your original post. If you lost a "dear friend" over questioning what went on at the clinic, then I question how "dear" of a friend they really were. C'mon! If you have a young, keen dog and you enjoy working him, there's no reason to give up. Either talk to this trainer and see if you can make it work, or find someone else. Just my .02! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 No way am I giving up on him. His manners are awful. I can't believe he passed an obedience class. He's knocked me down and climbed a 6 foot fence. I have trained in obedience and this is the worst dog I've ever had. It's not a pack-leader thing, as I was accused of. He has to sit and stay before he eats- isn't allowed on the furniture (except his blanket) but when we go out in public......he's a monster. I think with me being stuck in the house a lot has something to do with it, because none of my other dogs behaved like this. I think I will go back to Don Helsley who I bought the dog from and who I used to work my other dogs with on play days. Or Pat Shanahan- how lucky I am to live to 2 great trainers near me? Money is pretty tight here, but well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 slightly off topic/back the original topic...your physical challanges may be why your instructor is relucatant to let you in the round pen with a wild young dog. I've helped teach Agility to people with Parkinson's and I can tell you I was *really* careful they didn't get bumped or crowded just by other dogs and handlers. Nobody wants to be responsible for a fall. Now, if you don't want to herd that's fine. But it really isn't fair to blame Usher's lack of progress on your choice. He's a pup, doing pup things. Let him grow up, and if it suits you come back at it later, and consider strongly sending him out for the basics with a reputable trainer. I have to admit being a bit baffled now by the whole topic. Since you've trained a half dozen dogs already to work sheep....why was it not clear if the work was fair/unfair at the clinic? What exactly is your experience level with sheepdogs? And why in doGs name where you at some unknown's clinic with Don Helsley and Pat Shannahan so close? Anyway, relax. Stop trying to make college decisions about a toddler's future. Time will solve many things. And friends who are real friends will show themselves and stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 And why in doGs name where you at some unknown's clinic with Don Helsley and Pat Shannahan so close?>>Lenajo Ditto on that and raise you one Robin Nuffer who I would highly recommend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 One more leeeetle thing here. Sometimes it appears that other dogs- other breeds- look/behave much better out there- but it is an optical illusion. They are being obedient- not working the sheep. They are asked for an away, and go around the sheep never looking at them, and when they are asked to do certain high pressure things, they split them up. Or, they stay so far off the sheep, they need rewards (in the form of food) to actually "work" the sheep. I am not pointing at any breed in particular, just trying to point out that a dog who may look to be behaving really well and working the sheep nicely, may just simply be being directed well, and working dead broke sheep. Hard to look bad that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 This topic is a bit confusing to me. But a few things. I train. I holler, I jump, I get agitated, I speak my mind. Careful not to insult anyone but maybe sometimes a bit too strong for some folks. Others love me. I am passionate about my job, I have spent my whole life studing it and am doing as much as I can to pass it on. I have expectations in my students. They are for them to listen, try and if something seems off or not make sense, talk to ME! But only after you have tried. Honestly tried. I will not ask you to do something that I know to be wrong. I grew up in my job. My grandfather did it, my dad and even my mom was in the business. I have references and can prove what I say. Those things in itself are not a guarantee of course. And sometimes I just don't mesh with my clients. Or their stock. It happens. But still, please talk to me first. I take my time to teach you then at least extend the courtesy to me to troubleshoot or know why you may leave unhappy. I will do with the info what I feel I need to. The one thing that would upset me the most would be for someone to give up based on a few attempts (sometimes even just one) on their animal. Unless the animal (in my case horses) are a danger, the client is not able to execute (physcially or mentally) what needs to be done, I would feel horrible if I ever gave someone the impression that I put down their commitment to their animal. I don't know any trainer worth their salt that does that. Trainers are not bad people. But there is a huge difference in ability and knowledge. It comes with experience. Nothing else can beat it. And sometimes I feel that circumstances put a young gun, still unknown trainer closer and maybe more accessible. Try them. Heck, at one point I was that. And I had people giving me the chance to prove myself. But maybe they are not experienced enough to deal with your particular dog. Then be nice and let them know why you are leaving and find someone that is. They may be mad, but if they continue to train, they will appreciate your way of handling the situation on down the road. So, do not give up on your dog. It sounds like he is your companion first anyway and find someone that may think outside the box and may be able to help you. Sorry if I went on a little rant. But I think I mentioned already that I am a bit on the passionate side right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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