How do you know as a green novice

[Pippin's person]

This is mostly directed at people who have experience training several dogs to work and/or trial on livestock.

 

When do you know that your dog doesn't really have the talent for herding and shift your training resources? I have been reading a lot on various lists about the working bred dogs that for whatever reason "don't have it". My question is really, what does it mean to say that the dog doesn't have it?

 

Here, I don't mean the dogs who have absolutely no interest, but rather the ones who are o.k., but not all that talented. Maybe they are too fast or cut in too often on the outrun. In terms of trialling--these would be the ones who are competent on a Novice course (or an KC course), but wouldn't make it as an Open (or even Ranch) dog. In terms of working--I guess these would be the ones who can bring the dog-broke ewes to you as long as they're not too far away or in a tricky to reach spot but would retreat from a ram or push flightly sheep too fast or something like that.

 

What do folks do with a dog like that? Does the dog become a treasured housepet? Do you rehome them? Do you keep working them to see if you can make them better? At what point (and how) do you decide that you have reached the limit of your dog's talent?

 

Thanks

Robin

[kelpiegirl]

Good question, and not one I am qualified to answer- but I will say it seems it has a lot to do with knowing the breeding of the dog, and having experience training LOTS of BC's. Some dogs mature later than others, and some come down the pike with a great foundation. I think this is an interesting topic!

Julie

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

I think much depends on your goals and where you are in your own sheepdog education. If your goal is to be a top open handler who can actually make money training, trialing, and selling dogs (and lessons), then you would probably be quicker to give up on a less than stellar dog than someone who, say, really just wants a useful farm hand.

 

As a novice, you can learn a lot from *any* dog. My first two trial dogs were rescues and weren't dogs that would ever have made it to open, but I plugged away with them because they had things to teach me.

 

Of course a good mentor can help you to evaluate a dog, but be aware that what your mentor wants/looks for in a dog may not be the exact same thing you will ultimately want/look for in a dog. For example, I prefer a dog with a bit of eye and if I had such a dog but my mentor preferred a looser eyed dog, my mentor might dismiss my dog more quickly than I would simply because the dog doesn't suit him/her rather than because the dog lacks talent.

 

You learn what *you* like by watching lots of different dogs work and finding lines that you think will suit your needs and training style. Because my dogs aren't a means to make my name in open, I am much more willing to give them more time to mature and show me what they've got. But then I like playing around with youngsters even more than trialing, so spending time training doesn't bother me. If I were in a hurry or expected all of my dogs to be early starters like my first open dog, I might take a different approach. If your main goal is to win trials, then you might be a lot less forgiving of slow starters or difficult-to-train types (the very dogs that others would find a challenge and a joy to train).

 

So this is all really a nonanswer I suppose, as when to give up on a dog really depends on the individual person *and* the individual dog.

 

Oh, and answer to the question about what to do with the ones you've given up on, that's an individual thing too. I have a hard time giving up a dog, which is why I have so many. Two of my retirees were rescues and came to me for reasons other than as working dogs (and in fact were the reason I ever got involved in trialing), although I trialed one pretty successfully in the novice classes. One of my retirees was a retired open trial dog given to me to learn from with the understanding I would be her permanent retirement home. One retiree is a working-bred dog who got a bad start in life. I trialed him in the novice classes and retired him when I realized he'd never make it beyond P/N without a lot of blood, sweat, and tears on my part and probably not even then. I suppose I could have moved some of these dogs on to make room for others, but I felt that they had a value to me beyond working and so they have stayed as beloved pets. But then again, if Jill's owner had felt the same way, I never would have had the opportunity to learn from Jill (an open dog can give you confidence as a new handler and force you to learn to whistle!). So again, it's an individual thing and depends on your personal circumstances. Then I have my two main work/trial dogs and three youngsters coming up to be replacements for the two as they age.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks Julie. I was hoping you'd pipe in.

 

At this point, my own goal is to learn about sheep and learn to work as a partner with my dogs--and especially learn how to let the dog's own instincts do most of the work with me helping only when they need it. I'm interested in trialing, but I'm more interested in working. Right now, as far as trials go, I"m trying to keep my eye on the level where we are--novice (and not even quite there, but close). We are on the five-year plan for land and our own livestock but for now, my access is on the week-ends and whatever other occassional opportunity arises.

 

My question, though, was really prompted by discussions I've seen (here and elsewhere) about breeding and the inevitable issue that arises about working-bred dogs who don't cut it. Those discussions have made me think about my own dogs and learning curve.

 

I've been happy to learn with what I think most folks would say was one dog with minimal talent (but who has my heart) and another one who could possibly go past Novice if he had a handler with more experience than the one he has. As our puppy gets closer to the point that he's ready to start training (he's from parents whose style I like a lot), I've been trying to decide if I should keep working Pippin or if it would be a better use of everyone's resources to let agility be her job and put her on the sheep more occassionally--to keep her mind working--and in a sense give her training spot to the pup.

 

Pippin is three now and I think she could probably work through a novice course--but she is far too fast and rarely bends out on her outrun, and if the outrun is too far, she's just as likely to turn back to me as to do it (though she does on occassion do it all beautifully and it makes me catch my breath). I'm experienced enough to see what needs correction, but not experienced enough to intuit how to fix it. And since I don't have unlimited access to the sheep, it's hard for me to just play around with her (plus, the times I have, I realized that I quickly start doing things that are ill advised without a mentor to catch me and reel me back in).

 

Anyway, I know at some level that it's all more or less idiosyncratic and I've just been really curious about when folks who know what they are doing decide, as you did with your boy, that it's going to take more blood, sweat and tears than you may have.

 

Whistling..now that's a different story altogether....

[Laurae]

I'm definitely a novice...and have been for some time now but what you're describing with Pippin doesn't sound that terrible to me, given your circumstances. My Taz, who is well bred, will be three this summer, and he often slices at the top of his outruns, he almost always overflanks (but then recovers), and if the sheep are too far away for him to be sure about, he will sometimes look back at me for reassurance. All of these things are faults, but not necessarily ones I attribute to his natural ability. I think my own lack of understanding about stockwork and dog training, as well as my working him on my own in a smaller arena with the same three very dogbroke sheep for much, much too long, had a lot to do with shaping his working habits. He was left to make decisions about working based on a specific, limited set of circumstances, and was not guided in his development--so he made his own choices. Some of these choices were not optimum from a big-picture, long-range point of view, but in the absence of direction from a knowledgeable, proactive handler (uh, instead he had me), he figured out what to do to get the job done in his mind. I've been working with a trainer for a few months now, and I'm seeing much quicker progress than I previously had because she can help correct him where he begins to make poor decisions and set things up to make it easier for him to start to make better choices.

 

I hope to trial him one day in Open, but honestly I don't know if we'll ever get there. If we don't, though, it won't be because he doesn't have the talent--it's because he was taught and handled by a rank novice who made a lot of mistakes in the first years of his training. I'm sure he would be a great dog with an experienced handler--but he is MY dog, so we'll continue to work, get as far as we can together, and learn as much as we can along the way. At least I know my next dogs will benefit greatly from my experiences with Taz.

[r b m]

At my very first trial I went to observe, I was having a conversation with this guy about getting started. And the one thing I remember him saying is "don't be in a rush, take your time." This has been my mantra ever since. I've come to realize that my dog lacks the confidence to ever become a great open dog. Although she shows signs of vast improvement all the time, I know not to put too much pressure on myself or my dog. I'm having fun with it and so is she. My trainer wants me to try out novice this fall, and I just got my first whistle last week and have been practicing in my car(sans dog). I guess what I'm saying is if you and your are having fun, don't worry about it. All the blood sweat and tears are worth it, even if it's just through novice course.

 

I can't tell by your post if you're working with a trainer/mentor or if you have some sheep you can work with from time to time. But Sienna has had the same issues on her away outrun. We've used the "Get Back" command to correct this and it's working for us.

[r b m]

I'm definitely a novice...and have been for some time now but what you're describing with Pippin doesn't sound that terrible to me, given your circumstances. My Taz, who is well bred, will be three this summer, and he often slices at the top of his outruns, he almost always overflanks (but then recovers), and if the sheep are too far away for him to be sure about, he will sometimes look back at me for reassurance. All of these things are faults, but not necessarily ones I attribute to his natural ability. I think my own lack of understanding about stockwork and dog training, as well as my working him on my own in a smaller arena with the same three very dogbroke sheep for much, much too long, had a lot to do with shaping his working habits. He was left to make decisions about working based on a specific, limited set of circumstances, and was not guided in his development--so he made his own choices. Some of these choices were not optimum from a big-picture, long-range point of view, but in the absence of direction from a knowledgeable, proactive handler (uh, instead he had me), he figured out what to to get the job done in his mind. I've been working with a trainer for a few months now, and I'm seeing much quicker progress than I previously had because she can help correct him where he begins to make poor decisions and set things up to make it easier for him to start to make better choices.

 

I hope to trial him one day in Open, but honestly I don't know if we'll ever get there. If we don't, though, it won't be because he doesn't have the talent--it's because he was taught and handled by a rank novice who made a lot of mistakes in the first years of his training. I'm sure he would be a great dog with an experienced handler--but he is MY dog, so we'll continue to work, get as far as we can together, and learn as much as we can along the way. At least I know my next dogs will benefit greatly from my experiences with Taz.

 

Ditto!

[Pippin's person]

Thanks for the posts.

 

I've been working with a trainer for about a year and a half and have definitely learned a lot with both dogs--given how much I had (and have) to learn, it's rather a miracle my dogs can work at all . I keep trying to learn and understand as much as I can and I'm completely hooked. I keep trying to panic and simultaneously yell "lie down" and the wrong flanking command less.

 

I'm certain that Pippin would be different with a different handler, but I'm also pretty sure (from talking to experienced trainers/trialers about her) that many trainers, including novice handlers, would not still be training Pippin at this point. That's neither here nor there at some level, I know, but it gets at my original question. I think even with a top handler, Pippin's usefullness as a working dog/trialling prospect would be limited relative to many others. That doesn't make me love her less or want to spend less time with her or anything like that. There is only one, catastrophic, situation that I can imagine that could lead me to consider rehoming her even if she never did anything other than lay on her bed and eat dog cookies for the rest of her life.

 

She wasn't bred strictly from working lines--a grand-sire had not an ounce of herding interest or ability, for instance. Her sire was bred to be a "versatile" BC---I won't pretend it was otherwise and I've come to understand how much that matters in terms of assessing talent--she didn't come from talented working parents (though they have many other great qualities), so there was no reason to expect her to have much of it.

 

When time and resources are limited, the question for me specifically is whether or not it makes sense to use those resources with Pippin since it means they may not be available for one of the other dogs, who do have the breeding that suggests the talent.

 

But at a broader level, one that I think reaches to the heart of questions concerning the sustainability of BCs as specifically a working breed, is what people do with dogs who have the breeding, but for whatever reason, not the talent. And not only what people specifically do with such dogs, but also how they come to decide which dogs those are.

 

Like Julie said, much of that assessment is in the eye (and goals) of the beholder. Maybe that makes it a question that simply can't be answered--I don't know. In my (limited) experience hanging around trials, it seems to me that what generally happens is that the dog is rehomed with another, usually less experienced, trainer or sometimes to a non-working home (though this seems somewhat less common).

[Carson Crazies]

I have a dog that will likely never be setting any trial fields on fire (Ok, so I'm being generous at that). I continue to work her because I learn so much from her, and she (usually) enjoys the work. I have a puppy coming up who isn't ready for much serious work yet, so I continue to work my older dog, and learn from her. I've promised her a forever home with me, so she's here to stay. I've started her in agility, and hopefully she & I will find a lot of fun in it together. When Nick is ready, he will be getting the lion's share of our sheep time. It was a tough decision to come to simply based on my emotional attachment to the her, but I've had the support of several folks who know a heck of a lot more about this than I do - and that's absolutely invaluable.

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

If I had limited resources and more than one dog, I would certainly choose my best prospect and put my time and resources into that particular dog, especially if my goal were to have a useful farm hand or successful trial career. If I didn't have a best prospect and knew the dog I did have wasn't the most talented on earth but we were both enjoying the journey, then I would keep at it with that dog. So, if I were you and you know that one of the other dogs has a better chance of being a good worker compared to Pippin, then I'd "retire" Pippin (mostly anyway, and just work her as time/funds permitted) and concentrate on the dog you think will go furthest. JMO.

 

The truth is that with three youngsters coming up I may have to make a similar decision. I don't know if I could pass one of the pups on, but then again if I knew it was a great loving home where the dog would get worked more than it would if it stayed with me, I would certainly consider it. That might not have crossed my mind back when I had just four dogs, but at nine, I do have to consider what happens if all three pups turn out not to be great (although I doubt that will be an issue--maybe all three won't be great trial dogs, but they are likely to be useful farm dogs, and I have seen anything yet to make me think otherwise) and Twist and Kat age to the point where they can't do the work anymore (and they ain't going anywhere!).

 

J.

[Shoofly]

When time and resources are limited, the question for me specifically is whether or not it makes sense to use those resources with Pippin since it means they may not be available for one of the other dogs, who do have the breeding that suggests the talent.

 

I think you're answering your own questions.

 

But at a broader level, one that I think reaches to the heart of questions concerning the sustainability of BCs as specifically a working breed, is what people do with dogs who have the breeding, but for whatever reason, not the talent. And not only what people specifically do with such dogs, but also how they come to decide which dogs those are.

 

Like Julie said, much of that assessment is in the eye (and goals) of the beholder. Maybe that makes it a question that simply can't be answered--I don't know. In my (limited) experience hanging around trials, it seems to me that what generally happens is that the dog is rehomed with another, usually less experienced, trainer or sometimes to a non-working home (though this seems somewhat less common).

 

Again, i think you've answered your own question.

 

This is easy. ;-) Okay, just joking about that. But, it does seem you already know the answer to the questions about your own dog. One thing you might add to the equation - if the dog is letting you down, don't you think she knows it? And if it's not her fault because she just doesn't have the talent, why keep asking for something she can't give you? I ask myself similar questions about my most talented dog. Loads of talent but she just can't control her tension on the trial field. Why should i keep asking her to try, and getting mad and disappointed at her? She is what she is. It's like getting mad because she's black and white - she can't help it.

 

What it comes down to is working with a dog that is a good teammate for you. Not every dog suits every handler and sometimes the best and kindest thing you can do is put the dog with someone who will appreciate them for what they are (or aren't). It's about the "team" as much as it is the dog.

[kelpiegirl]

Well said Robin. It really is all about the team. For me, I am the weak part of the team, but I do hope I am getting better!

Julie

 

I think you're answering your own questions.

Again, i think you've answered your own question.

 

This is easy. ;-) Okay, just joking about that. But, it does seem you already know the answer to the questions about your own dog. One thing you might add to the equation - if the dog is letting you down, don't you think she knows it? And if it's not her fault because she just doesn't have the talent, why keep asking for something she can't give you? I ask myself similar questions about my most talented dog. Loads of talent but she just can't control her tension on the trial field. Why should i keep asking her to try, and getting mad and disappointed at her? She is what she is. It's like getting mad because she's black and white - she can't help it.

 

What it comes down to is working with a dog that is a good teammate for you. Not every dog suits every handler and sometimes the best and kindest thing you can do is put the dog with someone who will appreciate them for what they are (or aren't). It's about the "team" as much as it is the dog.

[Laurae]

Ah, I understand this a bit better now. Taz was not the dog I began working with--I did take Sophie for lessons with a different trainer for almost a year when I lived in Oregon. He worked with her, I just watched (actually, thinking back to those days, I had absolutely NO idea what was going on most of the time during her lessons...what a waste). Anyway, Sophie is a mix and she is clearly not a talented stockdog (which didn't prevent said trainer from taking my money every week). I moved to Colorado, took a lesson with Julie Matthews, and she told me in a not unkind way that she didn't see much of a future career working stock for Sophie. I'm grateful for her frank words, and while I did continue playing around with Sophie on sheep for a short time afterward, that is what led me to get a pup who was well bred. I couldn't be any happier with Taz, but I do realize he will not live up to his potential with me. But I'm hoping working with Craig (a trained dog who is coming to live with me) will help speed my learning progress, which will in turn benefit Taz.

[MrSnappy]

Well, I am worse than a novice, but I already know that not a single dang one of my stupid mutts is good for anything, in terms of working. Interestingly, I had not one but TWO instructors encourage me to work Tweed. This remains a mystery to me to this day, as the only dog worse than Tweed - IMO - is Woo (*and regrettably, Squirrel Chasing is just not the same*). My last trainer laid it out for me in terms that made sense - Tweed sucks (which I knew), let's pretend Woo does not exist, and Piper is about as good as she is ever going to get, partly because she is who she is, and partly because I ruined her. Fair enough. I did.

 

At any rate, for a long time it didn't stop me from working regardless her but circumstance being what they are I have stopped now. I'd still like a dog that can work but it's not the end of the world. And also my dogs are more important to me than their working value, and there are other things we can do together. I guess if trialing was my utmost goal then things would be different, but I can't imagine parting with my beasts* for anything that is so non-essential to my life as working stock. Not to imply that working is not essential - I mean it is non essential to ME. I live in a penthouse, for crying out loud.

 

*(Tweed may be excepted to this phislosophy as I can think of parting with him at least 4 dozen times a day)

 

RDM

[Pipedream Farm]

Let me introduce you to Gyp.

(by C. Henry)

 

Gyp is a littermate to Renee's Rae who is running in open. Gyp works with lots of tension which seems to inhibit her; she doesn't really have a good feel for where the balance point is. I trained Gyp from up to PN level and ran her at that level for a year or two and then retired her. She is now one of our house pets. She didn't have what it takes to even be what I'd call useful; in other words, taking her out to do sheep chores created more work and took more effort than if I went without a dog (well almost that bad). She has the drive and desire to work (lots of drive), but just didn't get enough or the right mix of talent/instinct to be able to do it right. Some dogs do well in the lower classes, but struggle in open, these dogs can make great teaching dogs for new handlers. Some dogs don't get the right mix of the instincts (or the wrong mix of "holes") to be easy enough for new handlers to run, this is Gyp. I can get around a PN course with Gyp, but neither of us would really enjoy it. Deciding to retire Gyp did not mean I thought she was less of a dog than our others, she just isn't a stockdog. But I love her personality and you should see her with a Frisbee.

 

 

When you work your dog do you always finish feeling pissed-off at the dog or let down by the dog? If so it's time to evaluate both members of the team (handler/trainer & dog). One of you is not holding up their part of the team.

 

 

This is one of the hardest evaluations and then decisions you'll have to make. But in the end, you're the one who will have to make that decision.

 

Mark

[Shoofly]

Something else to consider is that the right dog for a particular situation isn't always the right dog for every situation. I'm learning this more all the time. See that gorgeous dog in my avatar? She's hell on wheels when it's lambing time. Walks right into the faces of anyone, can move anything, takes no crap from anyone. I have a particularly nasty ewe this year with a lamb, and she's pounded and pounded on Gael. Gael bites her face, HARD! and that's it for a couple of days, the ewe behaves. And Gael keeps on coming back where a lot of dogs would be out of there. But, this is the only time of the year that i even *think* about using Gael for actual work. She makes me nuts because she overdoes everything and it's a huge fight to get the simple things done. I'd rather grab another dog that flanks clean, flanks off the pressure when asked, will lay down and stay there rather than flying about at any little movement from the sheep, and is working *with* me. I'm really glad i have a team of dogs because different dogs are better at different jobs. Do i wish i had the perfect all around dog? Yep, but the more i learn and see, the more rare i realize that dog is.

[kelpiegirl]

It's very fluid for us. One really good lesson, one not so good. Good lessons stoke me for days, bad lessons have me back at it. Perhaps the hardest thing for me is seeing her do some incredible stuff, and then NOT. I am sure glad I work with someone who has experience- or I would be a disaster.

Julie

 

Let me introduce you to Gyp.

(by C. Henry)

 

Gyp is a littermate to Renee's Rae who is running in open. Gyp works with lots of tension which seems to inhibit her; she doesn't really have a good feel for where the balance point is. I trained Gyp from up to PN level and ran her at that level for a year or two and then retired her. She is now one of our house pets. She didn't have what it takes to even be what I'd call useful; in other words, taking her out to do sheep chores created more work and took more effort than if I went without a dog (well almost that bad). She has the drive and desire to work (lots of drive), but just didn't get enough or the right mix of talent/instinct to be able to do it right. Some dogs do well in the lower classes, but struggle in open, these dogs can make great teaching dogs for new handlers. Some dogs don't get the right mix of the instincts (or the wrong mix of "holes") to be easy enough for new handlers to run, this is Gyp. I can get around a PN course with Gyp, but neither of us would really enjoy it. Deciding to retire Gyp did not mean I thought she was less of a dog than our others, she just isn't a stockdog. But I love her personality and you should see her with a Frisbee.

 

 

When you work your dog do you always finish feeling pissed-off at the dog or let down by the dog? If so it's time to evaluate both members of the team (handler/trainer & dog). One of you is not holding up their part of the team.

This is one of the hardest evaluations and then decisions you'll have to make. But in the end, you're the one who will have to make that decision.

 

Mark

[Pippin's person]

This is all great--thanks.

 

and Robin, you're right--I did know the answers--I think it's the details of the questions that needed work

 

It's interesting to think about feeling after a session as a guage for evaluating the working relationship. With Pippin (perhaps this is always the scourge of the "first" anything), I typically think "if only...."--and looking at it that way, I think it's pretty clear who's not holding up their end of the partnership. By the same gauge, though, I think things look promising for Hamish....

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

taking her out to do sheep chores created more work and took more effort than if I went without a dog

 

This is key for me. I work my sheep every day and have limited time and resources. Honestly, I'm not here to provide a Disneyland vacation to multiple dogs that add nothing to our operation. We have a couple "pets" but they are dogs who are satisfied with just hanging around. Limiting a working bred Border Collie to that kind of life - well, that's what we warn people not to do with them, isn't it?

 

I depend on the advice of those who have been at it longer than I have to sort out problems that are caused by me, or are fixable with training, from problems that are caused by pieces being missing.

 

Ben is a really good example of a dog that is useful, but won't go any further. By the time I figured out how to train around his holes, he was too old to take long training sessions. Anything new he learns, is learned "on the job." But I can count on him for many things - and he works very well with other dogs. He's got a lot of power but his sense of balance stinks. If I work him with Cord or even a pup, even the hardest jobs go very quickly.

[stockdogranch]

Great topic! There have been lots of great answers and many things I agree with. It really does depend on what your goals are, as well as how much time and other resources you have...some examples I've had:

 

I have an 8 year old male who started out looking great--lots of drive, and the strongest innate sense of balance I've ever seen. But somewhere along the line, he became a bit intimidated by stock. As a nursery dog, I ran up the field to save him at the lift (because the big, scary range ewes looked at him wrong!) more times than I care to remember. When he was learning to drive, he just kept flanking off the pressure--wouldn't/couldn't hold the line to save himself. I would get frustrated, and we would end up sitting in the pasture, me hugging him crying, becuse I had been so frustrated with him, which of course had only made him worse. I'd put him up for a few months, then try again, always with the same results. He really was one of those dogs that caused more work than I had time for if I tried to use him for any jobs. Ok, so I finally decided it was time to "give up" on him. So what to do with him? I wouldn't/couldn't let a less experienced handler have him, as he's not the best listener. And a top open handler wouldn't have time for all that flanking off the pressure nonsense. So he became a pet for several years. Then, I realized one day that he was perfect as the "lesson dog"--for beginning handlers, I would work their dog the first few lessons, while they worked Trucker B--he loves to do "day 1" drills--circles, lie down, walkabouts to balance, etc. So he finally found his niche in life. He got to work some, but it was never threatening scary work for him--it was stuff he could handle. He was the lesson dog for several years until recurring injuries forced him into official retirement.

 

Another example, this not really of a dog who "doesn't have it," but one whose personality needed more than I could give. One of Riddle's pups, Piper, has a lot of really GREAT innate talent, and tons of drive, etc, but she was not happy here because she needs more individual attention than me with a day job, multiple dogs to train, and a multiple dog household could give to her. She was getting lost in the shuffle. And her lack of attention led to a lack of confidence and was beginning to show in her work. It wasn't fair of me to try to keep her here and work her. Solution? As of last Sunday, she now belongs to one of my students; in the past 4 days has bonded to him and his other dog as if she's been there all her life, and I still get to oversee her training. What could be better?

 

So, the answer is the same as it is for many issues involving these dogs: "it depends."

Anna

[MickeyDogs]

It can be a wonderful journey.

 

Dogs are my love and training, trialing and working with our sheep are fascinating and fun secondary activities for me. Jill is my second border collie and she and I entered the world of sheep & trialing together. She is from good working lines but her temperament and courage were always in question. Together we muddled through, learned a lot, and she took me from Novice/Novice to Open. On the plus side she has a lot of talent - on the down side she has way too much eye. Given I was a novice and I was training her, it is a wonder her head didn't explode! If I only knew then what I know now... We certainly had our share of frustration and tears, but we also had success in the novice classes and she peaked as a pretty good Ranch dog. We both enjoyed the journey.

 

Our move into Open was encouraged by others who knew and said to me that Jill would never be a competitive Open dog, but I would learn from the experience. They were right. I have learned a lot and Jill's great heart kept her trying. Now at almost 10, she is telling me it's time to quit and I am honoring that. She has earned the right to lay in the field and watch the young dogs work. When she and I started this journey I never thought we'd make it as far as we did. These dogs are amazing on a number of fronts.

 

I guess ya just gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em.

[juliepoudrier]

I think one thing that needs to be emphasized, and I may not have done so sufficiently in my earlier posts, is that it also depends on why you got the dog in the first place. I guess that many of us started out with the pets we had and then branched out from there. My pets were pets first (well, jogging partners actually) that I eventually took to stock. Because they weren't obtained with stockwork in mind, I didn't hold them to as high a standard as I might a dog I bought specifically for work. That is, the pets that don't end up being stellar working dogs will still be pets. The dogs like Robin and others have mentioned that were destined to be work dogs from the start would could rightfully be viewed a bit differently, and certainly would benefit from being passed on to a more suitable home/partner if you find that the dog just isn't what you wanted or the teamwork doesn't click or whatever. That is, if you've got the basics down (perhaps even learning from your pets) and you're looking for the best working/trial partner you can find, then you will certainly need to be more selective and willing to move a dog to a better situation (for the dog) if it's not working out for you, and there shouldn't be any guilt in that.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Some dogs, even if they aren't your best worker, will never be really happy being on second string. Better for that dog to be rehomed where their skills are #1, or at least there is not constant comparison or other "better" dogs doing all the fun stuff.

 

If the dog is happy as a pet or alternative career dog while others do the herding that's different. Then rehoming is really more about the person - space issues, financial issues for example. As long as the rehome is done with ethics and care toward the dog I personally have no problem with it.

[Patty Abel]

Mark, Julie, Rebecca,others,

I know it's no consolation to you, but it is good for me to hear that even with your dog savvy and experience you still have doubts about a well bred dog's uses and promise. It makes me realize that a new dog won't magically do everything just right all the time.

I also notice that many of us have multiple multiple(more than three) dogs. I liked the comment about a dog creating more work than he finishes. I can relate to that one Some of the time. Like when my dog neatly collects the sheep and gets them in the close field, then before I can get there and close the gate(he has no outrun, just and outchase, so I go to the field with him), neatly chases them all out. BUT, when they are finally in the barnyard, held in the corner they Can't escape from, Donald makes a literally impossible job merely a time consuming backbreaking labor of love. He can hold them there without melting down for as long as I need. I all have to do is walk up to the one I want and snatch it up.

Would I like an all around working/trial dog? YES. Can I give another dog all it deserves while I have a "good enough" for what I need dog and Five other throw aways? Not today.

With tons of respect to all the working sheep dog folks, Patty

[Moss]

Really interesting thread

 

I too am a novice, having only been training my collies for the past three years. My first, Moss, was bought mainly as a pet but was bought from a trainer/triallist who talked me into giving him a go on stock. I bought a second part-trained dog from the same breeder a few months ago to help me learn more about working my dogs etc. I am hoping to trial both dogs later this year and also want them to help with general farm work. They both have forever homes with me - no matter what.

 

My other half is a shepherd and works on a 13000 acre estate caring for 3500 Blackfaced sheep and lambs. His dogs NEED to be useful working dogs, otherwise they are taking the space of another dog that could be part of the team. My OH is hoping to start trialling later this year too - with a little encouragement from me He recently sold an older dog as working on the hill was becoming too much for him. He was sold on to another shepherd who is kind to his dogs, has flat fields and less sheep. I think it was the kindest thing to do for this dog. His head hadn't slowed down with his body and leaving him at home while the younger dogs went out to do the job he had been used for would have been really really hard on him. Now he has moved to easier ground with less sheep I am sure he is happier than he would have been staying, but being left behind each morning.

 

I think it all depends on what you want your dogs for and also about the psyche of the dog itself.