Training Sessions: Hitting a Wall

[Camden's Mom]

I have always enjoyed training my dog to do silly pet tricks. It’s been a way for us to work together as a team. I also love that it tires out his lil’ brain. However, I’m lost for how to proceed with formal training sessions. I’ve been doing them with Camden less and less the past few months because it’s becoming an unpleasant experience.

 

When we’re doing a structured training session Camden gets really stressed out, really quickly. This happens almost the instant we begin to work on any new trick or go back to an old trick that he’s struggling with. He will become a bit manic, starts panting and sometimes entirely shuts down. He won’t even participate in shaping exercises anymore. I’ll put something on the floor for him to interact with and he’ll just lay there and whale eye me.

 

I’ve tried being perky, but that gets him too excited. I’ve tried being calmly encouraging but he shuts down. I’ve tried not saying a word but that shuts him down even faster. I’ve tried using high and low value treats, he gets over stimulated by both. I’ve tried using a toy and that gets him way too excited. I’ve tried leaving difficult tricks on the shelf for weeks yet he still stresses out as soon as we go back to them. I’ve tried taking quiet “time outs” when he gets super stressed or overly excited but it doesn't snap him out of it. Eventually I just call it quits as I'm not trying to make this an unpleasant experience for either of us.

 

Somewhere along the way, training became a beast of burden for him and I don’t know how to get us back into the swing of having fun, productive daily sessions. I’d love any advice or suggestions for how to get us back on track. Or should I just abandon the silly pet tricks all together?

 

As an aside: His herding instructor told me that when she's training with him he often "isn't taking it seriously at all or he's taking it way too seriously". I wonder if this is a version of what I'm experiencing at home. I swear this dog constantly has me stumped...

[G. Festerling]

Why do there have to be productive daily sessions?

I have followed your journey with Camden. You seem like a well matched and devoted pair. Quit training. Just be. Let the training be.

My guess is that with careful observation, you will and can find little things to introduce in a game type way.

I have previously pondered the whole shaping thing and all its "shapes". I use it. I use it with my horses. In many different ways. The best are the "sessions" that are none and essentially just kind of slipped in on the go. Things that are being offered and I simply steal and shape for my pleasure into more style.

Seldom is there much structure to my shaping. I kind of take and often find myself drifting off into fun and silly places.

I am so not a trick trainer. No imagination for it. But Fee has taught me a few. She showed me how to wave, sit pretty, load up, throw items at me to catch and a few other things. None are solid yet as I kind of just fall into it. Like last evening when she ended up on the living room table (long story) trying to get my attention. Since it was not working, she pulled out the newest one, sitting pretty. Which, yes, is still wobbly, all over the place and of course in the wrong spot. But we had some great fun and I had to end it.

[BCjetta]

If it were my dog I would go back to simple and use something that is high value like a toy to turn training into a game again. Something simple like a sit or down and then get a toy, then work into something like nose touch and then he gets to play with a toy. Just something to change his perception of training time to be fun instead of stressful.

 

He's probably really sensitive like my dog. The other day I was working on getting her to nose touch a target on the bottom of the teeter and I put a piece of food on it and she went behind me to try and get it and I said no. Then I sent her on the teeter and she wouldn't go anywhere near the target plate because I'd said no to her when she was trying to steal the treat off it. She interpreted it as going near the target plate was bad. I also had a lot of issues getting motivation to work with me training when she was younger. Last winter (so she was 2) she started wanting to work for me more after we started doing agility and more "fun" training.

[Cass C]

Lyka went through a phase of shutting down when learning new things, but she seemed to improve with a change of environment. If she shut down or got distracted inside we went outside and if she shut down outside I would move inside.

 

My trainer also had me put her on a leash, because she would run and hide at first if I said a command she didn't know. I'm not sure if Camden has this issue.

 

I was also told not to stop training on a bad note (I.E. When she shut down), but to engage her with something she knew to end the training session. Shake is usually her go to trick when she is struggling.

 

The last way that I learned to refocus Lyka is to make sure that I lure her into the behavior I am are trying to teach even if it is only once during a particular training session. As she catches on she gets more confident in the trick I am teaching her, but when I let her shut down the command for what I'm trying to teach becomes a command to shut down.

[KJT]

My non BC (mixed breed rescue) goes through stages of shutting down and I have had to change alot of my training ways for her to work through it - very different to my BC who cant get enough of trick work.

 

Like others have said, go back to basics and don't make it a "training session". Reward him for his every day obedience/manners. Have a bowl of treats on hand always. Whenever you ask him to come, or sit or down etc and he does it, throw him a treat, praise with voice then play with him (ball, tuggie, whatever he is in to). Leave it at that. Next time you need to give him a standard daily command, even if its to "sit" before you put his leash on to go for a walk, treat, praise, toy, then off for your walk. So he is constantly getting rewarded for very easy basic manners stuff, but its not a chore or a training session, just him getting rewarded and reminded that everything is great. Leave the tricks and structured training sessions for now and get him wanting to work for his treats, praise, toys just with everyday stuff.

 

This worked for my dog. Every dog is different, but having worked with horses for many years of all types of personalities, I am a strong believer in taking a little bit of advice from everyone and seeing what works best for you and your dog and running with what works for your situation.

[Nathan]

I think the best advice you got was keeping it simple with the tricks for now. Reward the simple sits and downs heavily and let him get excited, reinforcing that tricks are fun and a great chance to interact with you. The sooner he realizes it's fun, the more relaxed he'll become... In theory.

[Camden's Mom]

I guess I should stipulate that we do tons of training on a daily basis just not in a formal way. Every walk, every game of fetch, every interaction with a new person or dog is a training opportunity for us. The rewards can vary (don't pull and you'll get to meet that dog, stay in a nice sit and the stranger will give you pets, etc.) but I pretty much always have treats on me and food is a common re-inforcer for him. In all of these situations he is responsive, eager to please and not stressed at all. Daily, I DO challenge him and ask for difficult behaviors (obedience stuff) and he doesn't shut down like he does during the trick training sessions.

 

 

Lyka went through a phase of shutting down when learning new things, but she seemed to improve with a change of environment. If she shut down or got distracted inside we went outside and if she shut down outside I would move inside.

 

This might be just what we need! I'm so used to trick training in my living room. We'll practice a new trick there and then proof it in other places later. I think I might just try switching the location up when teaching a new trick and see what happens. Thanks Cass C!

 

 

Why do there have to be productive daily sessions?
I have followed your journey with Camden. You seem like a well matched and devoted pair. Quit training. Just be. Let the training be.

 

G. Festerling, you are in my head! I've considered this very thing. The tricks I teach Camden are completely unnecessary, silly things but I enjoyed the pleasure of "working" with him. It was so cool to see the lightbulb moment when he got a trick, or the slight head tilt as he tried to figure out what I wanted. Lately those things have been missing. As the trick sessions have gotten more stressful for him we've been doing them far less often... it's just no fun if he's not into it too.

 

Do I like that, when I say "achoo!", my dog can go across the room, retrieve a single tissue from a tissue box and return it to me? Of course I do. It's super cute and a trick that strangers go gaga over. Is it necessary? Absolutely not and I'd love him just as much as I do now even if he couldn't do this ridiculous thing. The trick training has always been about relationship building for us, something to engage our minds and keep us both thinking. If that partnership isn't there anymore there's really no point in continuing to do it.

 

It's clear I need to move away from the formal sessions in the living room. If I can find a way to get him excited, reengaged and having fun with tricks again we'll forge ahead however, I'm prepared to abandon it all together if it's just something he's not enjoying anymore.

[GentleLake]

It's clear I need to move away from the formal sessions in the living room.

 

Other people have already said most of what I was going to (give it a break for a while, try different locations, make sure to end on a good note with a success even if it's only a sit, and if it's not fun for either of you anymore consider letting it go), but the one that hasn't come up yet is this.

 

Something (doesn't matter what at this point) happened along the way that made these formal session in the living room stressful for your sensitive boy. And now, whatever preparations you make, however subtle, to begin a formal session in the living room are cuing him that the ordeal is going to begin.

 

I suspect if you can eliminate that anticipation of unpleasant things to come, you just might be able to ease him back into enjoying training. For now, I don't even think I'd move a formal training session to another location (though it might be good in a while), but rather to lay off formal sessions for a while and integrate training into your everyday routine. I know you're doing that now with things he already knows, but maybe you can get creative and think of ways to train new things by capturing behaviors rather than shaping them for a while. Does he take a bow (front stretch) or do yoga (front stretch followed by a back leg stretch)? I taught Bodhi these by capturing them when he got up in the morning or after a nap. It took longer than shaping, but it was less stressful than shaping can be, because it's always a successful moment (or no moment at all, which isn't stressful).

 

It might also be a good idea to consult a good obedience, rally or agility (i.e. non-herding) trainer. I'm sure they've been through this many, many times and should have some good ideas for you.

 

Best wishes getting through this, which I'm sure too will pass eventually. So nice that you're being sensitive to Camden's feelings and not just trying to push through it and force him into things he's clearly not comfortable with. (Where's the thumbs up icon?)

[Maralynn]

Take a month off, just enjoy hanging out with your dog. We all get burned out on one thing or another and need a break from time to time. I don't think dogs are any different. I bet he'll let you know when he's ready to start training again.

[Sekah]

I'm nthing the good advice above. Take a break. Be wary of the anxiety-triggering associations that have been made that lead up to your training sessions. Try a new environment. Try a new behaviour. Go back to the basics. Don't bother with the notion of needing to end on a high note - set a 2 minute timer, train in that time and when it dings, training is over regardless of what you're doing.

 

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that at some point you asked for too much, too fast. Learning is innately stressful, but the stress likely bubbled over and resulted in the ongoing anxiety you're dealing with today.

 

Where I'm a bit confused is that you're able to drill/train basic obedience type behaviours but not tricks. Whatever the difference is between those two ideas is probably your answer. It's possible that shaping is stressing him out, so consider luring. When you start back up, focus on simple behaviours that are innately reinforcing. Things like a captured head bob, a nose target, a spin, etc become highly reinforcing for dogs.

 

Lastly, if you want true troubleshooting help, record your training session and either re-watch it yourself or share it with others so you can try to see where things started going wrong.

[OurBoys]

Have you tried changing your training technique? When Jake wouldn’t get something after the 3^rd time I showed him I knew it was my fault. I wasn’t communicating to him in a way he understood what I wanted from him.

 

Everybody's given good advice. I like Sekah’s suggestion in regards to recording your sessions and the timer idea though I would still end on a happy note even if was just putting Camden in a heel (or whatever command he knows).

[Pippin's person]

I agree very much with Gisela. I used to formally train our first BC all the time--lots of tricks, lots of obedience. She didn't get stressed about it but it started to feel compulsive for me (not saying it's that way for you at all). I've enjoyed our life together a lot more ever since I cut out/down the formal training and just did stuff as it came up (and stuff coming up was often in the context of a class or activity, so it's not that I quit working with her)

 

Some of that happened because we got more dogs and there wasn't the same time available, but mostly I saw that I liked the results of the organic approach more than the formal training approach--it felt like more of a give and take relationship (and I didn't need to have food on me all the time, which also cut down on the chewed out pockets ).

[gcv-border]

Much good advice above.

 

Don't bother with the notion of needing to end on a high note

 

I generally ascribe to the theory to end a training session with a success, but I recently read an opinion piece by Silvia Trkman that argues for not always ending on a high note - and I think her theory has merit when used correctly.

 

Sorry, I can't copy it here or link directly to it, but if you go to www.lolabuland.com and scroll down to the entry of May 5, you can access it. It is part of her "Busting the Myths" series.

 

Just a different point of view.

[Camden's Mom]

Something (doesn't matter what at this point) happened along the way that made these formal session in the living room stressful for your sensitive boy. And now, whatever preparations you make, however subtle, to begin a formal session in the living room are cuing him that the ordeal is going to begin.

 

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that at some point you asked for too much, too fast. Learning is innately stressful, but the stress likely bubbled over and resulted in the ongoing anxiety you're dealing with today.

 

You both have a good point here. My understanding of training is that some stress is good, but the key is to call it quits before it gets too stressful. I have no doubt, as a novice trainer, I pushed him too hard at some point and that stress has carried over and amplified over time.

 

maybe you can get creative and think of ways to train new things by capturing behaviors rather than shaping them for a while. Does he take a bow (front stretch) or do yoga (front stretch followed by a back leg stretch)? I taught Bodhi these by capturing them when he got up in the morning or after a nap. It took longer than shaping, but it was less stressful than shaping can be, because it's always a successful moment (or no moment at all, which isn't stressful).

 

I rather like this idea. It's basically what I did to train him to "fluff" (shake as if he were wet) on cue. It took a long time for him to really get it, but it was kinda' fun to reward him for something he did naturally. He always seemed very pleased that he'd done something to make me so happy without much effort. I'll see what he offers during a casual play session and maybe try to work on capturing instead of shaping.

 

Thanks everyone for such great advice on what might seem like a rookie question. I always feel a bit self conscious posting topics like this but then I get these *amazing* responses and feel so glad that I did so. I will certainly be taking a different approach with trick training moving forward. There will be absolutely no formal living room training sessions anywhere in the foreseeable future. I do hope I can get him excited about trick training again but if it's just not his thing anymore I have no intention of trying to force it.

[Camden's Mom]

I just have to share this....

 

Tonight I was sitting on the porch and Camden came over and sweetly laid his head on my leg. He is usually such a busy body that this is a rare behavior for him. I saw it as the perfect opportunity so I said "yes!" and gave a treat from my pocket that was left over from our walk earlier. Well, he offered it again and got another treat and again! I only had a few kibbles in my pocket so I risked running inside to get our high value treats. I knew I might set him off because this was one of the stages of preparing for a formal training session but I figured what the hell. I set myself up exactly where I'd been outside and just acted non-chalant.

 

He did get a little excited when he saw the high value treats but certainly didn't go into a bad state of mind. In fact he immediately offered the behavior again when I sat down. No stress, no frustration, no over excitement. He made a few mistakes (laid his head on the arm rest instead of my leg) and quickly worked out on his own that it must be wrong because no chicken landed in his mouth, lol. This was the first time we've worked on a new behavior in a loooong time where he was focused and relaxed. I'm so excited. Capturing will be our new way of life for awhile and I'm more then happy with that.

 

Only tough part is now I'm going to have to come up with a cute cue for the "rest your chin on my leg" behavior... I normally decide what trick I want to teach before we start working on it so now I've got some thinking to do. This is what I'd call one of the "good problems".

[G. Festerling]

I have all kinds of behaviors started, none perfected and no true commands just yet.....

[Kian's Mom]

So excited for you. For us this is her cue telling me we have to go potty. But that's while we are inside. Little different for you since your outside. She will also lay her head on my shoulder, if I'm sitting on the ground or floor. This is her hug. If I ask for a good hug she will put one paw on my shoulder, a really good hug she will put a paw on each shoulder.

I have also tried the bow thing but she hasn't got that yet.

While in the yard we also work on standing ( walking ) stays, and random drops if she is healing beside me. Sometimes while playing I will also tell her down for a random drop.

Just have fun.

[GentleLake]

Sweet!

 

I'm not 100% on my terminology, but it sounds like you may have started out capturing and then moved to some shaping. Whatever it was, I'm glad it's working and wasn't stressful for either of you.

[Camden's Mom]

'm not 100% on my terminology, but it sounds like you may have started out capturing and then moved to some shaping. Whatever it was, I'm glad it's working and wasn't stressful for either of you.

 

You are probably right, in that I captured the quick chin rest but then started shaping it to make it something specific; i.e. rest your chin on my leg and stay there for a couple seconds. Regardless it was fun seeing him try to figure it out and put together what I wanted without going into a panic.

 

I've also started trying to capture "yoga" (he does that front then back stretch often). It's funny, I don't think he's anywhere near getting it yet but he has started doing the stretches and then looking up at me and cocking his head. It's pretty adorable and it's nice to see him genuinely engaged in learning new things again.

[GentleLake]

You are probably right, in that I captured the quick chin rest but then started shaping it to make it something specific; i.e. rest your chin on my leg and stay there for a couple seconds. Regardless it was fun seeing him try to figure it out and put together what I wanted without going into a panic.

 

If I'm right, the trying to figure it out part is when it turns to shaping. I could be wrong, though.

 

 

I've also started trying to capture "yoga" (he does that front then back stretch often). It's funny, I don't think he's anywhere near getting it yet but he has started doing the stretches and then looking up at me and cocking his head.

 

When I did it with Bodhi, I quickly noticed how much more often he'd stretch, just to get the praise and cookie. Since you have a history of shaping with him, it sounds like he's catching on quickly . . . and without getting anxious about it! This may be just what he needs to get him through this rough spot. I wouldn't be surprised if you can return to "formal" training before too long. Just don't rush it; make sure he's really over the hump before you try again.

 

It's pretty adorable and it's nice to see him genuinely engaged in learning new things again.

 

Awesome!!!!