How to Prove Show Dogs Still Have Working Ability

[Cynthia P]

The test as drawn up mainly by the ISDS is too trial-like in its concept and a more practical test should be devised without consultation with the ISDS which will show the practical aptitude of the dog to work stock.

 

How about this for a test:

 

Take 150 ewes and lambs into a field, through a gate with an alfalfa field just on the other side of the lane. Fetch all of the ewes and lambs out of the alfalfa field when they do not move into the field you want them to go into;

 

Second: Go out 2000 yards to a ewe that has lambed in pasture and bring back the ewe and new born lambs to the barn in the rain

 

Third: Several lambs have escaped through the electric fencing into a bramble filled brush area. Send dog into bush and bring all lambs back through the gate while not getting your dog shocked on the electric fencing.

 

Fourth: Ram lambs have broken through and are heading out to the "ready to be bred" ewe flock; Stop the ram lambs and if they do get into the flock, shed off all offending ram lambs before breeding occurs.

 

 

How is that for practical? I could go on and on and on....

[Shoofly]

Brambles + show dogs, ha!

[stockdogranch]

This mentality is not limited to sheepherding, dog trials, you name it. We have been raising a generation or two that believes 'everyone must be a winner', there can be no losers because it's hard on self esteem, and doesn't allow everyone to be treated fairly.

 

Absolutely!!! That's how, at least here in CA, we've had a couple generations go through school, never do a lick of work, and get passed on to the next grade. They called it "social promotion"--it would hurt their little (lazy a**) egos to have to be "held back" while their friends went on to the next grade.

 

OK, end of rant.

 

This whole attitude from the KC sounds so familiar--just like the AKC's "herding program"--everything is made easier and easier as time goes by so that it takes less and less to get that coveted title. And unfortunately, there are some USBCHA open handlers who judge for them who are the worst culprits! They make sure everyone gets a "qualifying score" so everyone is happy, and they'll get called back to judge another day ($). And, of course, some of those competing have no idea that they are not doing real work with their dogs--if they've never been to anything other than those trials, and they get their titles, they think they've got something there (and then breed them, and on we go...)

 

I really liked Cynthia's ideas for the practical test, and, in fact, I would love to see more of that type of work for trials, if it were feasible. But then, I like a dog who can do real work, not just make their way round a trial course,

Anna

[juliepoudrier]

I think we should add moving ewes with newborn lambs to Cynthia's practical test. And how about bringing the entire flock into an unfamilar barn and getting them put up in stalls (with doors that don't always open in the most convenient direction) just as a thunderstorm is hitting the *night* before the shearer is due to come. That's a pretty practical test (and one I've had to do). Or just getting the herd of unbroke cattle up out of the row crop field (the one used to grow veggies and strawberries for the local farmer's market), or, getting those same cattle up at 11 p.m. when they've broken through the fence and are threatening to trample the neighbor's tabacco field (all by flashlight of course).

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Oh, Cynthia, that was perfect. Those of us with well-bred and well-trained dogs take that sort of stuff for granted (well, probably not, but we expect it) - and I doubt people like this would understand the difference between what they have in mind and what we could all propose as "practical tests."

 

Here's some more:

 

Take a load of fifty calves off a truck and sort sicks off healthy, medicate the sick ones, and do prophylactic meds on the healthy ones. Drive the healthy ones to a pasture half a mile away. These calves were not a herd before being loaded on the truck, and there are weaners and cutting bulls alike, and none have seen a dog before in their life except the farm dogs they chase from the pastures. Then go back and move the sick calves (who are sulking tremendously) to a seperate pasture. Then reverse the process, after the calves have gotten comfortable in the tree-lined 15 acre pasture. 30 minutes allowed for Part I, 20 minutes for the second.

 

Take a ewe with "oops" newborns through a pasture with one week old lambs and their moms without losing her. Walk her into the lambing barn, through decreasing sized pens used to hold ewes at different stages of pregnancy, into the jugging area. While the first time mom started out completely uninterested in her lambs while traveling through the open field, now that she's in a small space those hormones will kick in and she'll be rapidly more willing to mash your dog into a pulp. Your dog will hold that ewe while you juggle lambing supplies, two or three newborn lambs (determined by random draw), at each gate, none of which works properly and requires a special trick which involves three hands, to open and secure behind you. Once you get to the jugs, you must pen her in it without tearing it apart, or losing her, or losing the lambs, and you must do it before the lambs cool down. You have seven minutes to finish this task.

 

Catch a ewe with the back legs of one twin, and the front legs of another twin, hanging out of her, in a thirty acre field. You are allowed to touch her or use your crook, but points will be lost if you are more than ten yards from your OB lube, towels, soap, and bucket of warm water, any time you touch her. [This one actually happened to me this year!] You have three minutes to complete this task.

 

Spill fifty pounds of corn on the ground and hold thirty sheep off long enough to clean it up. Your dog will have to hold them mid field while you run and fetch a shovel and wheelbarrow 100 yards away. You have two minutes to perform this task. You will loose one-third your points for each sheep which reaches the pile.

 

You know, I've suddenly realized why the ISDS trial is so "artificial". It does test the some of the basic skills needed to perform tasks such as we are talking about, but in a way that minimizes the stress to the stock. Farm work is hard and dangerous to both dog and stock - asking that tests be set up to replicate such work is disrespectful to the stock and terribly self-centered. I'm not talking about the title trials - these people claim to want to substitute ISDS trials for "practical work" in their selection process, but they want an easy way to do it - to heck with the sheep.

[KrisK]

I vote that Cynthia, Julie and Rebecca become the official KC 'practical test' writers

[Rosanne]

Somehow, I don't think they pass the 'sympathetic to show dogs' qualification. . ..

 

Hmmmm. . . . such smart breeders. . . if they want to "prove show dogs still have working ability" I guess it never occurred to them that maybe they should actually, um, train them to work? And if they couldn't, that was the whole reason for the Show/Full champion split?

 

I had the same mix of horror/humor/astonishment/disgust that most of you had when reading the article. Luckily breeders here know that their fluffy show ring dogs herd - they have that nifty "Tested" certificate that certifies that Fluffy does indeed have a prey drive like that amazing pit bull in the video earlier. Gosh! That dog could win Open trials (as long as those mean ISDS judges aren't juding!).

 

[stockdogranch]

 

You guys crack me up! All of those scenarios sound WAAAY too familiar! Actually, mine was two sets of nose & toes sticking out at once...

 

To those I would also add:

 

In the middle of a 20 acre field, you have a dozen or more new moms with lambs, some as young as a few days old, in amongst about 50 head of assorted sheep. You need to sort off three specific sheep--the "school sheep" for a dog's first lesson. You can't put them into the sorting pen to gate sort them off because some of the lambs might get smooshed. So you need to shed the three you need and bring them down to the small pen. Now, once you get them in there, you have to use the special baling twine latch to fasten the gate, becuse these three sheep are escape artists. Time limit: 10 minutes.

 

You need to take a flat bed trailer (hitched to the back of a pickup) loaded with 6 bales of hay (small squares) down to the feeder at the far end of the pasture. You have to hold the sheep and calves off the trailer while you drive it down there, unload the hay, and stack it in the feeder which is sitting in 5-6 inches of really stinky, icky mud/cow sh*t and standing water made posible by the chicken ranch across the street "flood irrigating" the pasture. Time limit: 15 minutes. Loss of points for every bite of hay that either a calf or sheep eats.

 

Anna

[SoloRiver]

Didn't everyone have to read "Harrison Bergeron" in high school English class?

 

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

[Rosanne]

Great story! We never read that in high school!

 

So. . . all those fluffy dogs are really just amazing herding dogs, and their handlers, wanting to be fair, have handicapped them with huge masses of hair and great big leg bones, so the poor little ISDS dogs won't feel bad by being defeated all the time out on the trial field! (right!?!)

 

Sometimes I wonder where the heck our society is headed. . . .

[DeltaBluez Tess]

My true to life test:

 

Have handler leave stall door open enough for new borne lamb to esacpe. Have Border Collie which is near you, leave her post and disappear. Have handler scratch her head why her dog has abandoned her post and run off. Hear bleating of lamb from outside of stall. See lamb run full blast to end of barn (60 ft away). See Border Collie then retreive lamb by gently nudging the scared lamb all the way back and nudge the lamb back into the stall. Have hander remove her fallen jaw from floor. Have Border Collie then resume her post next to handler.

[kelpiegirl]

No no no you guys. Your examples simply will not do. The sheep must all be absolutely dead dog puppy dog sheep. They must follow the handler, in a neat order, preferably trained ahead of time, so that the minute they see the dog the begin the course, allowing, of course, time for the dog to get behind them. They must not leave droppings, pass wind, baaa, or burp. They must be clean. At the end of the run, it will be customary to award the sheep group who behaves best (thus allowing their dog to win the class). It is ALL about the sheep, but certainly not in the way YOU ALL think

Julie

[border_collie_crazy]

lol oh boy, these UK folks...(the forum I posted it on is mixed show/sport/with a few working) they said that the working test for their dogs should not be HARDER then the tests for our working dogs! then told me that I do not live in the UK therefore I should stop passing judgement on their DOGS. I made zero metion of theirs dogs so I dont know where that came from...just a reflex defence I suppose?

 

now, I say my boss should judge the proposed test.... she fits the bill of knowing nothing about stockwork, but she also figers that if a BCs cant pass a test that easy the first time around they dont deserve the title period lol non of this trying as often as needed stuff

[Kat's Dogs]

whaaaaa. Am I the only one that can't open the link.

 

 

I want to get my Shih Tzus the title!! Think they can pass?

You have to admit, a shih tzu (with a show coat, complete with bows in their hair) "herding" sheep would be pretty amusing.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

They must follow the handler, in a neat order, preferably trained ahead of time, so that the minute they see the dog the begin the course, allowing, of course, time for the dog to get behind them.

 

 

Like this:

 

 

 

[Rosanne]

all those disturbingly ordered sheep scenes from Babe are floating through my head now!. . . . and I haven't seen that movies in years!

 

So.. . . . the key is to teach the Show Dogs the magic words that make the sheep follow them around the course! Now I get it! Maybe that's why they've been breeding for broad heads and necks - more room for nice big vocal chords!

 

 

What do you think would happen if an Open trial dog went 'undercover' over there and actually got his Full Champion? That'd certainly stir them all up. (Especially since the owner most likely would flat-out refuse to breed to any of the Show-Only dogs. . .)

[Kat's Dogs]

Wow. the link finally worked for me.

So sad.

 

It seemed to me like a very funny joke someone from the bored might say. It is everything everyone predicted would happen. And yet, the "other side" still doesn't get it. Oh boy.

[Lunar]

OMG. I am in no way a shepherd... I am not sure I've even been in the same vicinity of sheep. But the whole idea of "our dogs can't past your test! make it easier!" just makes me stare with a dropped jaw. I HATE that attitude. What on earth are they trying to accomplish?? More titles, I guess. Jeez. That's so pathetic.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I think it'd be great is some dogs went undercover and got their full Championships (slap-slap). Then they'd all have to shut up or put up, now wouldn't they?

 

There are many Border Collies that could take a conformation Championship within the ISDS. It'd be nice if the dog fancy could say the same for their KC Border Collies when it comes to"herding" but they cannot and this is why the easy botton is being asked (begged) for.

[quicksilver]

Following correspondence by the Club to the Kennel Club regarding the Working Test, A representive from the Club has been invited to the Kennel Club on 17 April 2007 to discuss whether the working test should be amended. Also attending will be representives of the ISDS, Kennel Club Working Trials, Obedience and Agility Sub Committee and repesentive from the Breed Council.

 

Wouldn't you pay money to be a fly on the wall for THAT meeting? I wonder what the input from the Agility Sub-Committee rep would be? More weaving? Put the sheep over an a-frame?

 

Isn't it typical? The discussion and information about the proposed BCC of GB working test amendments on here has been more complete than anything I've read on a UK board.

 

I suspect the Working Trials, Obedience and Agility folks will be at the meeting because Champion titles can be gained in each of those disciplines, as well as in Conformation. I'm surprised that anyone who's made it their life's work to breed coffee tables and Collie x Corgis should want to get their dog to pass a working test. Though there are a very small number of KC breeders in the UK whose dogs do work stock as well, they don't tend to be the darlings of the show ring.