war between instinct and biddability

[kelpiegirl]

Hi everyone

So, I am grappling with this concept now. I have a young dog who has loads of instinct, but at her young age (11 months) ain't the most biddable creature in the world. Now, to qualify this she does listen/respond with regularity, but at other times, a down just ain't worth it for her- and I have to push her off, and "make the ground uncomfortable" with her to get her to down. She knows what this is. So, since she is pushy on the fetch, and I need some pace in there at some point, I wanted to get some downs in- sometimes she does this real nice- usually when she is right on balance. BUT, if I am a bit late on the down at the top, she will sometimes over balance, and then a down doesn't cut it. Am I just fighting the instinct for balance with my crappy timing? Will it get better as she ages? Fwiw, I don't see this as a big deal- just would like to talk with folks who have experienced it.

Julie

[stockdogranch]

Hi. When I first started working dogs a number of years ago, I was told that if you have a keen dog, you need only three things to progress:

 

1. a stop,

2. a stop, and

3. a stop.

 

And I have found that that is right. There are a number of things that I don't stress over with a young dog, knowing that they will work themselves out as the pup matures and learns. But a stop is the one thing I would really be absolutely 100% consistent with. You have to be able to enforce it every time you ask for it. Everybody has their preferred method of enforcing it, but the main thing is that you have to set up the situation so that you CAN enforce it. That may mean working closely enough to the dog until you're sure it's 100%, or some folks like to use a long line; there are a number of methods of doing it, and everyone has their preferred way. I say whatever works for you and you are comfortable with.

 

When you say you want stops on a fetch, I picture you walking backwards with the pup bringing sheep to you. If this is what you mean, then the pup should pretty much be at balance most of the time. If, however, you are talking about sending the pup on little outruns, then not stopping it at the top at the right time, then I would keep them short enough so that I am close enough to enforce the stop, but then again, I don't think I would really be working on outruns anyway until the pup has a consistent stop.

 

If this pup is a bit of a hard dog (not so biddable), and you have a test of wills going on, just remember to ALWAYS think through EVERY situation that you put the pup in. Know what kinds of "trouble" the pup will get into, and set it up so that the pup can't make the wrong decision--don't let doing whatever is wrong an option that the pup has, if that makes sense.

 

Anna

[cgt]

BUT, if I am a bit late on the down at the top, she will sometimes over balance, and then a down doesn't cut it. Am I just fighting the instinct for balance with my crappy timing?

 

I am not good enough to give advice, and in any case it's virtually impossible to know what's going on from a handful of words.

But I am working with a pup now - all these things sound so familiar - so I can at least comment a little, I guess.

 

What is this "over balance" thing? Is the dog needing to be stopped or it misses the balance point? If so, maybe you

should be using a correction to let the dog know to stay on balance. If it is coming in too hard at the top (balance point)

then maybe you need to correct the dog so it takes responsibility at the top, instead of just stopping it. Just some ideas;

they may or may not be appropriate.

 

I agree with Anna (hi Anna!) that a good stop is priceless in the beginning.

 

On the other hand, I have certainly fallen into the well-known rookie's trap of using a stop as a crutch with a young dog.

It is very easy to fall into the habit of over-using the stop to keep the dog right and/or out of trouble, with the result that

the dog learns nothing and/or does not develop its stock handling talents and/or becomes completely reliant on the handler

for its interaction with the stock.

To some extent, I am still repairing the damage I did to one of my dogs by over-using the stop in early training.

 

It's one of the fascinating things about this business - all the little tensions.

You need a stop to set things up and keep things under control.

But you can't teach the dog unless you let it keep going and make mistakes for you to correct.

 

charlie

[stockdogranch]

It's one of the fascinating things about this business - all the little tensions.

You need a stop to set things up and keep things under control.

But you can't teach the dog unless you let it keep going and make mistakes for you to correct.

 

Well said, Charlie (HI!!)

Anna

[Black Watch Debatable]

My first border collie was super keen. For ages it seemed that whenever she stopped there was a good deal of forward movement. If I was practically on top of her, she'd "only" move a foot or two forward before she stopped. If I was 20 feet away and told her to lie down, she might advance three or four feet before she stopped. And so on Nothing, but nothing seemed to get through to her.

 

When she was 18 months old or so, I gave up. I hated fighting with her and figured we'd never be able to trial, so I quit badgering. After that, all we did was move sheep and cattle around the farm. (We had to move cattle into a corral in order to use the pastures.) And almost overnight, it seemed, Bracken turned into an extremely biddable dog. She became one of those you could stop on a dime and move a smidge to the left or right at x hundred yards. She was a wonderful working partner, and we made it to Open.

 

I don't have any advice to offer. But Julie asked, "Will it get better as she ages?" and I think it will. I suspect that maturity and real work did the trick for Bracken and me. The old "wet saddle blankets" approach has its merits

[Bill Fosher]

A dog that blows past the balance point is usually buzzing the sheep -- not at all uncommon in a young keen dog. I'd say in that situation the thing to do is not to stop her because she is not really at the balance point. She's too close. The reason she's blowing past the top is that she can feel she's too close. I bet if you look closely you'll see her tail's up just a little bit as she goes past, and then comes back down as she releases a little of the pressure.

 

If the scene above describes what's going on with your dog, the thing to do is to help her figure out how to stay off the sheep enough to be in control of them. Keep following her tail around the sheep until she's back out far enough to be relaxed, then stop her and let her bring the sheep. Get the distance right, and the dog will be free to listen to you and think. Right now she's just too tight to think, so she can't be biddible.

 

Again, all based on what I'm picturing going on -- I could be 100 percent wrong.

[Bill Fosher]

A dog that blows past the balance point is usually buzzing the sheep -- not at all uncommon in a young keen dog. I'd say in that situation the thing to do is not to stop her because she is not really at the balance point. She's too close. The reason she's blowing past the top is that she can feel she's too close. I bet if you look closely you'll see her tail's up just a little bit as she goes past, and then comes back down as she releases a little of the pressure.

 

If the scene above describes what's going on with your dog, the thing to do is to help her figure out how to stay off the sheep enough to be in control of them. Keep following her tail around the sheep until she's back out far enough to be relaxed, then stop her and let her bring the sheep. Get the distance right, and the dog will be free to listen to you and think. Right now she's just too tight to think, so she can't be biddible.

 

Again, all based on what I'm picturing going on -- I could be 100 percent wrong.

[NCStarkey]

What an excellent post from Bill (and it was well worth repeating!). Great stuff, Bill!

 

nancy

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks to everyone who replied!!!! She can get too close to the sheep with me- respect issue there- we are working on it. She is a BIG header, which has gotten better, but when the sheep take to running everything in her says- do NOT let them get away. She LOVES to flank- someone asked that- yes, that is very nice for her. I supect I need to be fair- ask for down on balance and not too close- thanks Bill that makes total sense, and require her to listen- am doing that. The main issue does stem from when she is too close to the sheep, which stems from not pushing off from me all the time, which stems from her "got any thing to back that up?" sometimes, attitude. Other times she is a listening fool Thanks so much for replying- it helps to see others who have seen this and got through it

Julie

[Pipedream Farm]

She is a BIG header, which has gotten better, but when the sheep take to running everything in her says- do NOT let them get away.

 

This can be the source of her being too close and pushy, even on the lift. We have a dog that was really pushy and antsy while cross-driving towards the pressure. The dog was very worried about loosing control; this lead to badly sliced flanks and no pace. We incorrectly worked on fixing the bad flanks when the solution was to work on her relaxing while driving towards the pressure. When we had her drive towards the pressure (a closed gate so the sheep could not escape) and made her pace (using stops and slow-downs with a long line to enforce it) and made the work routine; she then relaxed. Once relaxed her pace and flanks were now correct.

 

Mark

[bcnewe2]

We have a dog that was really pushy and antsy while cross-driving towards the pressure. The dog was very worried about loosing control; this lead to badly sliced flanks and no pace. We incorrectly worked on fixing the bad flanks when the solution was to work on her relaxing while driving towards the pressure. When we had her drive towards the pressure (a closed gate so the sheep could not escape) and made her pace (using stops and slow-downs with a long line to enforce it) and made the work routine; she then relaxed. Once relaxed her pace and flanks were now correct.

 

I have a dog that we're fighting the same issues with. I've been rethinking the situation lately. My sheep will haul butt to the lean-too at night as that's where they get grained and sleep. So I realize that we can not "fetch" the sheep to the lean-too. My issue is when the sheep are being moved about with the dog, they can start in that direction and will quickly go into a trot or run thinking that I might be leading them back to the lean-too. The dog tries to ride the pressure but it seems like the sheep will blow past him in effort to start into a run to get to the lean too. Then the dog gets upset and ends up heading them to stop the escape. I've been thinking it's the dog not finding the right pressure point but I'm beginning to think it's the sheep that we've trained into this situation.

I've used a long line to keep him on the point but it changes so quickly I can't keep up with the point on a long line so I have to let it go. The dog is not that excitable under pressure as long as I don't get excited but neither he nor I know what to do.

I can lie the dog down, sheep still run. I can put him way off his sheep, they still run. the only thing that seems to work on a direct line to the lean too (even if we're not headed there) is to have him back up in front of the sheep to keep them from running(his idea). This somehow doesn't feel right.

 

Any suggestions?

 

I've been thinking about taking the feeding troughs out of the lean-too and moving them to different parts of the farm each night to keep the sheep guessing as to where we're going. But that seems like such a hassle and I'm afraid I'd be teaching the sheep to run after the ATV in hopes of getting to the feeding spot quickly.

 

BTW this dog seems to be able hold his lines fine if they aren't in the direction of the lean-too. he can make a turn on the drive and keep his sheep nicely in line, He seems to read pressure right at other time.

 

TIA

Kristen

[Pipedream Farm]

Besides our dog learning that the sheep won't win and therefore the dog relaxed; our sheep also learned that they would not escape and the dog would gather them off the gate. This lead to the sheep not being as determined to run to the gate during the exercise. I would examine your set-up; if running to the lean-too does not allow the sheep to win (i.e. escape being worked by running around on in the lean-too) then you may be able to use that draw to your advantage. The dog learns to relax driving the sheep there and the sheep learn there is no benifit to running there during these sessions.

 

Mark

[bcnewe2]

You mean I was missing the simple obvious.....just shut the damn gate?!! What a DUH moment. Thanks, I will start the idea rolling in my brain to not let the sheep win if they get there. Lots of ways for them or us to win on that one. I was toying with the idea of tying a young dog or 2 to the lean too while working the sheep so it would be a very uncomfortable place for them to get to. But, damn if I didn't think about simply shutting the gate!

Over thinking things doesn’t often help me.

Thanks

Kristen

[zenotri]

I am really enjoying this thread as it is certainly something I have struggled with, since I have a pushy dog with a ton of instinct.

 

With us, it has been mostly due to my lack of experience. I found it so hard when we first started as I knew my dog was in a much better position than I was to know the right place to stop. As I get better at reading my sheep & my dog, things seem to be getting better for us. The best advice I ever got was this: "someone needs to be in control out there & if it's not going to be you, then it will be your dog". This is so true for us, she is so extremely biddable when all is calm & well, but if I allow things to get out of hand, she certainly can try to take over.

 

The other thing I struggled with is that there are a lot of very mechanical dogs & trainers here & I think in my quest not to dilute my dogs ability to read sheep (as I think many have done) I have let her get away with too much. Now I am just finding that happy medium.

 

We are currently doing two different things, walkabouts with large numbers of sheep & pretty much no commands at all and lots of yard/gate work where I am giving commands & in a position to enforce them. Any further advice would be welcome.

[bcnewe2]

Maybe my new thoughts about the lean-too not being the enemy made a difference today. I went out with the attitude of how can we make the lean-too work for us. Well, I did shut the gate and that helped but I went further and decided to try to work on shedding with the lean-too as my draw for the group of sheep pointed in that direction. Working the sheep that weren't pointed in that direction, gave the other sheep something else besides their buddies to go too.

It was the lightbulb in Micks head we've been working on getting with our shed. He was having a hard time understanding what I wanted, sheep would curl around us and we'd get all flustered. This time sheep didn't curl, dog understood what we were doing. Was it a fluke? We did it 4 more times with the same results. Might still be a fluke but it sure was nice. When I let the group we were working start drifting back towards the others I sent Mick to stop them and he knew I wanted them seprated from the rest. so flanked between the 2 groups to bring them back, not worring about the other group. They on the other hand didn't win either as they had to stand by the closed gate waiting to see what we were going to do next.

We still have the heading issue when it's time to go in for the evening but Mick seems to be more relaxed with the gate shut. I think the sheep will quickly understand it's not the escape it has been.

 

I don't post alot of stockwork questions or answers, it's the pro-novice complex I think . but after today, maybe I should let my hair down and ask for advise more often .

Thanks again

Krsiten

[bcnewe2]

I think in my quest not to dilute my dogs ability to read sheep (as I think many have done) I have let her get away with too much. Now I am just finding that happy medium.

 

Don't ya just hate not knowing when to let the dog figure things out with your mouth shut vs. Did my dog just totally blow me off cause he can??

 

Sometimes I have to jump in and back up what I say but it's better now cause I usually know when he's struggling to listen and it's not cause he can, but cause he doesn't understand what I'm wanting or how I'm asking.

 

One day I was arguing with my mentor that Mick should know better, she smiled and said, “Obviously he doesn't or he wouldn't keep doing it” meaning don’t correct him, explain it to him. (doesn't matter what "it" is cause it happens with different things). That was a real eye opener for me. It's all in the communication.

 

Cheers

[kelpiegirl]

I have little experience as well. My dog has lots of instinct. My dog reads pressure with her eyes closed. I have to always be cognizant of what I ask her when. In times of question, her instinct over-rides all else. I need to learn to pay attention to the sheep, and see the situation, and ask her to act once I have it sussed. She is one heck of a sheep dog- if I can just get myself to work her, 1/2 as well as she works the sheep.

Julie

 

 

I am really enjoying this thread as it is certainly something I have struggled with, since I have a pushy dog with a ton of instinct.

 

With us, it has been mostly due to my lack of experience. I found it so hard when we first started as I knew my dog was in a much better position than I was to know the right place to stop. As I get better at reading my sheep & my dog, things seem to be getting better for us. The best advice I ever got was this: "someone needs to be in control out there & if it's not going to be you, then it will be your dog". This is so true for us, she is so extremely biddable when all is calm & well, but if I allow things to get out of hand, she certainly can try to take over.

 

The other thing I struggled with is that there are a lot of very mechanical dogs & trainers here & I think in my quest not to dilute my dogs ability to read sheep (as I think many have done) I have let her get away with too much. Now I am just finding that happy medium.

 

We are currently doing two different things, walkabouts with large numbers of sheep & pretty much no commands at all and lots of yard/gate work where I am giving commands & in a position to enforce them. Any further advice would be welcome.